EPTI wrote it right there- because July won OSL twice and Savior hasn't won it yet and (imo) OSL is tougher than MSL. Arguably Savior is already greater than July but if he wins the OSL then there is no doubt.
ZvT finals curse? - Page 2
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
I wrote it right there- because July won OSL twice and Savior hasn't won it yet and (imo) OSL is tougher than MSL. Arguably Savior is already greater than July but if he wins the OSL then there is no doubt. | ||
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kefkalives
Australia1272 Posts
When something is on tv, normally its for entertainment value. July is a much more entertaining player than savior. Fans dont anaylse skill at an intense level like people try to do here at tl.net, they like the showmanship. at least i hope --; | ||
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
This is why I strongly believe people should not start threads unless they have a 100 posts minimum. Just to prevent diarrhea threads. =[ | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
if MSL was really that much easier than OSL, why has July never made an MSL finals? Same reason why it took Savior this long to make the OSL: it's fucking hard, either league. if you look at the list of MSL finals, there aren't really any "fluke" finalists, no Sync, no GoodFriend, et cetera. many of the MSL finalists have multiple appearances or wins, and many consider the league to have better, more balanced maps. what it lacks is the "OSL Mystique," that magical feeling you have when you watch it. there's simply no way to duplicate that crazy atmosphere during OSL finals. but does mean that we should value an OSL victory over an MSL one? should July's 2 be considered greater than Savior's 3 (possible 4)? is an OSL victory really quantified as "more" than a MSL victory simply because of the history, mystique, and public opinion? in a way you could say that the OSL caters more to the "hot" player with more controversial maps, so you could say that its harder to be consistent in it... but i mean they are two leagues both with qualification systems and brackets and whatever, so how can one really be significantly "tougher"? i just think OSL has been around longer and has a deeper history, and thats what makes valued more, but i don't think it's significantly "tougher" or "harder" to win. if that was true, wouldn't multiple osl winners like nada or july or whoever have many more MSL wins? it doesn't make any sense that two players who were so dominant in the OSL somehow can't even make many recent MSL finals. it's a testament to how tough the MSL is and how it should be viewed more equally as the OSL (note how i said more equally, not exactly equal). and the argument about only being able to practice for one league doesn't hold, nal_ra, iloveoov, and now savior have been able make two finals in both leagues relatively at the same time, which shows just how dominant those players were during those time periods. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
savior's ONLY weak point is that he wasn't able to win an OSL, of course he'll have more motivation than someone who has won it 3 times already and has nothing left to prove, no matter what nada says. you are ALWAYS more hungry for that first one. | ||
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Shiva_Chandra
Denmark341 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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kefkalives
Australia1272 Posts
He still played low econ , however more then yellows. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On February 17 2007 20:20 davidgurt wrote: Savior said Nada has nothing on him. die savior. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4149 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 17 2007 22:45 Hot_Bid wrote: it is true that an OSL win is valued more and considered more prestigious than an MSL win, but is it really harder? probably a bit, but not as much as people think. it's ridiculously hard to qualify for either, and even harder to win either. if MSL was really that much easier than OSL, why has July never made an MSL finals? Same reason why it took Savior this long to make the OSL: it's fucking hard, either league. if you look at the list of MSL finals, there aren't really any "fluke" finalists, no Sync, no GoodFriend, et cetera. many of the MSL finalists have multiple appearances or wins, and many consider the league to have better, more balanced maps. what it lacks is the "OSL Mystique," that magical feeling you have when you watch it. there's simply no way to duplicate that crazy atmosphere during OSL finals. but does mean that we should value an OSL victory over an MSL one? should July's 2 be considered greater than Savior's 3 (possible 4)? is an OSL victory really quantified as "more" than a MSL victory simply because of the history, mystique, and public opinion? in a way you could say that the OSL caters more to the "hot" player with more controversial maps, so you could say that its harder to be consistent in it... but i mean they are two leagues both with qualification systems and brackets and whatever, so how can one really be significantly "tougher"? i just think OSL has been around longer and has a deeper history, and thats what makes valued more, but i don't think it's significantly "tougher" or "harder" to win. if that was true, wouldn't multiple osl winners like nada or july or whoever have many more MSL wins? it doesn't make any sense that two players who were so dominant in the OSL somehow can't even make many recent MSL finals. it's a testament to how tough the MSL is and how it should be viewed more equally as the OSL (note how i said more equally, not exactly equal). and the argument about only being able to practice for one league doesn't hold, nal_ra, iloveoov, and now savior have been able make two finals in both leagues relatively at the same time, which shows just how dominant those players were during those time periods. the only difference - but what a huge difference it is - is the incredibly increased pressure in an OSL final. other than that, they're obviously the same | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On February 17 2007 22:45 Hot_Bid wrote: + Show Spoiler + it is true that an OSL win is valued more and considered more prestigious than an MSL win, but is it really harder? probably a bit, but not as much as people think. it's ridiculously hard to qualify for either, and even harder to win either. if MSL was really that much easier than OSL, why has July never made an MSL finals? Same reason why it took Savior this long to make the OSL: it's fucking hard, either league. if you look at the list of MSL finals, there aren't really any "fluke" finalists, no Sync, no GoodFriend, et cetera. many of the MSL finalists have multiple appearances or wins, and many consider the league to have better, more balanced maps. what it lacks is the "OSL Mystique," that magical feeling you have when you watch it. there's simply no way to duplicate that crazy atmosphere during OSL finals. but does mean that we should value an OSL victory over an MSL one? should July's 2 be considered greater than Savior's 3 (possible 4)? is an OSL victory really quantified as "more" than a MSL victory simply because of the history, mystique, and public opinion? in a way you could say that the OSL caters more to the "hot" player with more controversial maps, so you could say that its harder to be consistent in it... but i mean they are two leagues both with qualification systems and brackets and whatever, so how can one really be significantly "tougher"? i just think OSL has been around longer and has a deeper history, and thats what makes valued more, but i don't think it's significantly "tougher" or "harder" to win. if that was true, wouldn't multiple osl winners like nada or july or whoever have many more MSL wins? it doesn't make any sense that two players who were so dominant in the OSL somehow can't even make many recent MSL finals. it's a testament to how tough the MSL is and how it should be viewed more equally as the OSL (note how i said more equally, not exactly equal). and the argument about only being able to practice for one league doesn't hold, nal_ra, iloveoov, and now savior have been able make two finals in both leagues relatively at the same time, which shows just how dominant those players were during those time periods. Actually that sounds completely right. But why did it take so long for Savior to emerge in the OSL then? Did he concentrate more on the MSL before or was there no particular reason? | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4149 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On February 18 2007 07:38 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: that's because he was facing a lot of zerg players in the qualify games for OSL ah, ZvZ. That explains it. At least his ZvZ seems to have improved now though. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 18 2007 07:44 tKd_ wrote: I think it's fairly obvious at this point in time that Savior is better than July, it doesn't have to be in terms of wins or titles, you just have to see for yourself by games. Of course, July has been getting better and better, but his game sense is nowhere Savior's. July to this day, has incredible army micro though, it's so fun to watch, but it's not enough to win games 100%. This is exactly the kind of intergenerational subjective measurements that is far too personal & unfounded to be of use. The only fair way is to compare a person to their peers - you can point to Savior's win percentage, his MSL dominance, or things like that - actual stats to indicate how well Savior plays against people playing in the same era. But if you just want to say you 'feel' that Savior is better, there are a million issues that get in the way. Players back in July's era didn't have the same approach to today's game; the game flow was different; build orders were different; and especially maps were different. It's unfair to July in his prime to compare him to Savior simply because everyone in today's era is better than they were back then. Everyone has benefited from more study and a deeper understanding, and so the playing field is level only during the same time period; not between two different generations of players | ||
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bine
United States2352 Posts
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StreaK
Canada580 Posts
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