If true, the obvious impetus here is to save the industry (KeSPA, OGN, etc.) that's been established in Korea over the last decade. BW in Korea has ever so slightly been on the decline, there is no point in denying it, what with some of the long standing teams disbanding not long ago and MBC shutting down. So while they're still having a sizable audience, they're now trying to carefully introduce the BW viewership to SC2 and pave the way to a new successful future to ensure continued revenues and sponsor interest. And it has to be done, lest OGN follows in the footsteps of MBC. Obviously, mixing BW and SC2 in the same event does not make much sense, though.
On March 24 2012 02:07 JohnnyPG wrote: There is a shit load of angry BW fanboys on here D:
Now, coming from a relatively unbiased point of view, I think this is going to really bring the community together :D
I closely follow both BW and SC2 because both of them have their inherent flaws and their awesome traits.
BW Pros : Ridiculous APM requirements, old school heroes like Bisu and JD, difficult interface, so you know those boys are just clickin and clackin away on those keyboards >: D these two things just make it sooo fucking interesting to watch because you know that pure talent is behind those screens.
BW cons = Eyesore, not saying BW is just unwatchable, but by modern standards, ya -___- Lack of new faces, we all know Flash, JD, Bisu, and the likes are always going to be at the forefront, no room for growth, guys..I love BW because of the incredible talent that is in it, but lets be honest with ourselves as fans, this move is a desperation move, because money and time are running out for our beloved game.
SC2 pros = Gorgeous to watch, all commentary is in English (for the most part), large foreign community with talent and potential, game is still young, strategies and metagame are expanding all the time, the game is already becoming much less deathball dependent, I saw a game with Puma the other day where he was executing double pronged drops and micro'ing them well along with his marine tank push, I was thoroughly impressed, the apm on that is sick, it seems like the true talent and practice is finally showing through,
Sc2 cons = Lack of ridiculously amazing players, the players are getting better....they are, but we dont have any true "Holy shit he is unstoppable" players as of right now, makes it hard to really get behind someone in my opinion. Deathballs, wihle the game is improving and stepping away from these, there is still the dreaded and boring deathballs ...,Mostly in matchups with Protoss is what I observe.
So pretty much, why wouldnt you guys want this? Why must you be "BW fans" or "SC2 fans"? Why not just be "Starcraft fans"? I think this is cool, it might breathe some new life into the BW scene and its starting a more rapid integration in the Korean scene (I'm sure they are hesitant about the change).
SO as STARCRAFT fans lets look at this through some optimism yes?
Starcraft for life <3
All your posts have been trolling BW threads, why have you not been banned yet?
I am not even close to trolling with my current post, so that is a pretty irrelevant point. I used to troll simply because it seems that alot of Broodwar fanboys are so ridiculously biased that they would make any QQ regular on the Starcraft 2 forums pale in comparison.
But after having a few in depth conversations with some intelligent Broodwar fans it really just seems to follow the mantra of a few bad apples ruin it for the whole bunch.
In any case, stop trolling me, if you dont have anything productive to say then gtfo please.
Ladies and gentlemen, please don't take this troll too seriously.
Have a great day.
I agree folks, dont take the guy thats attempting to be unbiased about things opinion over the people that just say, "trolololollol lmfao" because, well that would just be foolish.
Obviously the intelligence factor speaks for itself concerning that one.
Thanks man, I am actually having a nice day :D
Unbiased over opinion you say?...that's funny
You say BW is an eyesore but sc2 is not...well guess what? That's a fucking opinion. Personally I think sc2 is a huge eye sore with its god awful units and mechanics. Doesn't make it a fact though. But it also means your statements arent facts, but in fact opinions. Terrible post
I just gave what I personally thought were the pros and the cons of each game. That is the complete opposite of bias. If I was biased I would have listed nothing but pros for SC2 and nothing but cons for BW O____O
Jesus Christ you BW fanboys are sensitive.
Personal opinion = unbias?
Jesus Christ you SC2 fanboys are stupid.
Interesting, lets just break out the dictionary on this one alright Aristotle?
bi·as/ˈbīəs/ Noun: Prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/ Noun: A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Not saying my views were based off of strict fact, really were just my opinion.
How was anything I posted unfair or excessively favoring another? D:
My personal thought on SC2 was that it was a piece of shit. I'm not being biased or something, just posting my personal thought.
And to be fair, you are completely entitled to your opinion.
I personally love both games, but you dont have to like SC2, that was kind of the entire point I was attempting to make, that both games have good and bad.
On March 24 2012 03:15 howLiN wrote: [quote] That's irrelevant if there literally wasn't any level of progaming outside of Korea at all before SC2. And programing implies to make a living playing a game competitively (regardless of skill), so I don't know what the quotation marks are for other than to be condescendant.
I used quotes because it's not really progaming and the level of players at the moment is not impressive whatsoever. Feels so artificial.
It really is progaming, there are paychecks and stuff. Maybe it feels artificial because you choose to hate the game but again, that's irrelevant to the legitimacy of its professional scene. Things are what they are.
You do know barely any foreign team pays their player salarys right? Otherwise I would not call it progaming because they are not earning any income to support themselves
That's why I said "is bringing a new level of progaming" as in "is starting to bring", instead of "brought":
What makes you think foreigners will start to earn salarys? At this pace, foreigners will disappear slowly as BW players switch to SC2
There is a competitive structure in the west that didn't exist in BW. I think that may have the ability to fuel a sustainable progaming scene, because that structure is starting to be able to monetize themselves in a way that may allow for a better chance of turning profits for the players, and in turn making the teams sustainable.
What in the blue hell are you chirpping about? We had our own competitive structure bucko. Not comparative to the Korean's system, but that doesn't change the fact that players could still go over there and try to go through Courage. Only a few guys made it out and the rest of the licenses were handouts.
There was a competitive structure. Don't shit on everything that we've done please, thanks.
Yeah, there was a structure; but to call that structure (play WCG and a few other tournaments a few times a year, have a 1/10000 chance that a Korean pro-team might allow you to play for them) something comparable to the modern SC2 scene is something very close to a lie. In any event, he didn't say that there wasn't a structure, he just said that there now exists a structure that didn't exist before. That much is simply undeniable. Seriously, there are now serious progaming teams with team houses and large salaries for their players in the West. You just didn't have that in BW.
Again, liking BW doesn't necessarily involve pissing on what SC2 has accomplished, any more than liking SC2 necessarily involves pissing on what BW accomplished. Let's at least be honest here.
Um, we didn't just have a few tournaments. Our emphasis was more on laddering, NW and CW. If you were on a half decent team there was shit going on practically every other day. The only thing is very few people actually got paid and that money was coming from anywhere.
It's sufficient because back then a lot of us were still going to school. It was a hobby more than anything else. We have team houses now hooooray. I'm not denying that shit, but the benefits are slim to none other than having a roof over your head and food. Which is fine. I'm well aware of what's happening man. I follow both so I don't need to be lectured.
This rumor has been going on for quite some time and I cannot believe they would actually implement anything like this.
Right, it was more of a hobby than an occupation for the vast majority of people. With the rise of SC2, a loooot more people are being payed salaries (I'm pretty positive most people on major foreign SC2 teams are being payed; it's the Korean scene which is poorer and whose teams can't afford to always give salaries) and even living in team houses, to such a degree that they are able to treat it as their fulltime job. Which is basically all I'm saying. I love both games, and I don't want either to die; I just want everyone to be honest about what both communities have accomplished. Peace!
All your posts have been trolling BW threads, why have you not been banned yet?
I am not even close to trolling with my current post, so that is a pretty irrelevant point. I used to troll simply because it seems that alot of Broodwar fanboys are so ridiculously biased that they would make any QQ regular on the Starcraft 2 forums pale in comparison.
But after having a few in depth conversations with some intelligent Broodwar fans it really just seems to follow the mantra of a few bad apples ruin it for the whole bunch.
In any case, stop trolling me, if you dont have anything productive to say then gtfo please.
Ladies and gentlemen, please don't take this troll too seriously.
Have a great day.
I agree folks, dont take the guy thats attempting to be unbiased about things opinion over the people that just say, "trolololollol lmfao" because, well that would just be foolish.
Obviously the intelligence factor speaks for itself concerning that one.
Thanks man, I am actually having a nice day :D
Unbiased over opinion you say?...that's funny
You say BW is an eyesore but sc2 is not...well guess what? That's a fucking opinion. Personally I think sc2 is a huge eye sore with its god awful units and mechanics. Doesn't make it a fact though. But it also means your statements arent facts, but in fact opinions. Terrible post
I just gave what I personally thought were the pros and the cons of each game. That is the complete opposite of bias. If I was biased I would have listed nothing but pros for SC2 and nothing but cons for BW O____O
Jesus Christ you BW fanboys are sensitive.
Personal opinion = unbias?
Jesus Christ you SC2 fanboys are stupid.
Interesting, lets just break out the dictionary on this one alright Aristotle?
bi·as/ˈbīəs/ Noun: Prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/ Noun: A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Not saying my views were based off of strict fact, really were just my opinion.
How was anything I posted unfair or excessively favoring another? D:
My personal thought on SC2 was that it was a piece of shit. I'm not being biased or something, just posting my personal thought.
And to be fair, you are completely entitled to your opinion.
I personally love both games, but you dont have to like SC2, that was kind of the entire point I was attempting to make, that both games have good and bad.
"Bias is an inclination to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives. Bias can come in many forms." My opinion was based on my biased point of view. Just to let you know.
On March 24 2012 03:59 Proseat wrote: If true, the obvious impetus here is to save the industry (KeSPA, OGN, etc.) that's been established in Korea over the last decade. BW in Korea has ever so slightly been on the decline, there is no point in denying it, what with some of the long standing teams disbanding not long ago and MBC shutting down. So while they're still having a sizable audience, they're now trying to carefully introduce the BW viewership to SC2. And it has to be done, lest OGN follows in the footsteps of MBC. Obviously, mixing BW and SC2 in the same event does not make much sense.
Whatever happens to BW and SC2, OGN is not going anywhere.
It's also good to keep in mind that this is nothing but a rumor. Hopefully, we'll end up with proper leagues for both games. Keep your fingers crossed.
The worst thing about this is that it would effectively immediately kill air force ace, since I don't think they would really be able to just start up a sc2 division. Earlier I said how kespa couldn't implement this, but maybe if they magicially got all the sc1 teams to agree to "partner up" with 1 distinct sc2 team they could field sc1/sc2 lineups (or force sc1 teams to practice sc2). It kind of defeats the point to make it a mix if you're going to make people switch over--Kespa I assume hopes to simply absorb current sc2 teams. ACE can't simply just absorb the sc2 teams; ace would die out.
I can't imagine what killing ACE would do to the mentality of some bw progamers. Probably at least like half of the more top tier sc1 players plan their career to be "play until I get too old/don't have good results, then hopefully enter ACE (otherwise to the military)".
I know the commentators in the Mr. Ma scandal said they felt so proud when air force ace got created because it finally felt that ESPORTS could become mainstream in korea and mr. ma ruined the credibility and pureness of esports.
This entire moves seems to retreat esports in korea to try to be the current fanbase of a couple games rather than make it more mainstream, which always seemed to be Kespa's (a division of the government) goal.
On March 24 2012 03:44 HyruleanTubist wrote: That actually sounds really awesome to me. I'd watch the shit out of this if this happens. I wonder how the teams are going to work, will the BW teams and SC2 teams combine somehow?
You serious?
Yep. Could be sweet. Both games are awesome (never understood why we can't just all love Starcraft, no matter which game it is), and it would create some interesting dynamics during a match. You need to have a solid squad of both SC2 and BW players to be a top team. Teams won't be able to rely on a single player, a single race, or even a single game.
Most importantly, I would get to watch both BW and SC2 at once ^^
I still believe having separate BW/SC2 league would fit your purpose well. I understand what you are saying, but the analogy of football (soccer) and football (not soccer) works well. You might be fan of both games but to combine them both would be terrible idea.
You might be right, but I'm certainly willing to give it a shot. It could be terrible, and I can see going and forth between the two games could be awkward. Another issue is going to be castors - They will need someone who knows both games extremely well. The next best solution is to swap castors between games and that just seems terrible. There are probably other issues, too, so it'll be interesting to see it if it happens.
On March 24 2012 03:44 HyruleanTubist wrote: That actually sounds really awesome to me. I'd watch the shit out of this if this happens. I wonder how the teams are going to work, will the BW teams and SC2 teams combine somehow?
You serious?
Yep. Could be sweet. Both games are awesome (never understood why we can't just all love Starcraft, no matter which game it is), and it would create some interesting dynamics during a match. You need to have a solid squad of both SC2 and BW players to be a top team. Teams won't be able to rely on a single player, a single race, or even a single game.
Most importantly, I would get to watch both BW and SC2 at once ^^
I'm not going to blindly become a fan of a game simply because it has the word "Starcraft" in the title. I don't love Starcraft 2 because I don't find it entertaining to watch.
You could also create interesting dynamics by adding in Tetris, or Warcraft 3, or Age of Empires, or cock fighting. That doesn't make the idea a good one.
On March 24 2012 03:59 Proseat wrote: If true, the obvious impetus here is to save the industry (KeSPA, OGN, etc.) that's been established in Korea over the last decade. BW in Korea has ever so slightly been on the decline, there is no point in denying it, what with some of the long standing teams disbanding not long ago and MBC shutting down. So while they're still having a sizable audience, they're now trying to carefully introduce the BW viewership to SC2. And it has to be done, lest OGN follows in the footsteps of MBC. Obviously, mixing BW and SC2 in the same event does not make much sense.
Whatever happens to BW and SC2, OGN is not going anywhere.
Why cannot OGN take their revenue from LoL? Much larger support, and at least it won't cause some questionable decisions like putting them on one tournament, both of them being different genre and all.
I am not even close to trolling with my current post, so that is a pretty irrelevant point. I used to troll simply because it seems that alot of Broodwar fanboys are so ridiculously biased that they would make any QQ regular on the Starcraft 2 forums pale in comparison.
But after having a few in depth conversations with some intelligent Broodwar fans it really just seems to follow the mantra of a few bad apples ruin it for the whole bunch.
In any case, stop trolling me, if you dont have anything productive to say then gtfo please.
Ladies and gentlemen, please don't take this troll too seriously.
Have a great day.
I agree folks, dont take the guy thats attempting to be unbiased about things opinion over the people that just say, "trolololollol lmfao" because, well that would just be foolish.
Obviously the intelligence factor speaks for itself concerning that one.
Thanks man, I am actually having a nice day :D
Unbiased over opinion you say?...that's funny
You say BW is an eyesore but sc2 is not...well guess what? That's a fucking opinion. Personally I think sc2 is a huge eye sore with its god awful units and mechanics. Doesn't make it a fact though. But it also means your statements arent facts, but in fact opinions. Terrible post
I just gave what I personally thought were the pros and the cons of each game. That is the complete opposite of bias. If I was biased I would have listed nothing but pros for SC2 and nothing but cons for BW O____O
Jesus Christ you BW fanboys are sensitive.
Personal opinion = unbias?
Jesus Christ you SC2 fanboys are stupid.
Interesting, lets just break out the dictionary on this one alright Aristotle?
bi·as/ˈbīəs/ Noun: Prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/ Noun: A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Not saying my views were based off of strict fact, really were just my opinion.
How was anything I posted unfair or excessively favoring another? D:
My personal thought on SC2 was that it was a piece of shit. I'm not being biased or something, just posting my personal thought.
And to be fair, you are completely entitled to your opinion.
I personally love both games, but you dont have to like SC2, that was kind of the entire point I was attempting to make, that both games have good and bad.
"Bias is an inclination to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives. Bias can come in many forms." My opinion was based on my biased point of view. Just to let you know.
All I can say to that man, is dont have the balls to sit there and call me out on being biased when I am trying to be equally fair to both(amazing) games, and you readily admit that you are biased and narrow minded(you are entitled to this, but dont step on my feet just because thats your approach) in your approach to it.
That's just weird... why not just have 2 separate PLs O.o, this isn't good for the players, audience, anyone :O. The players will be practicing different games, and then the audience will have to switch their mindset every match and remember what game's being played D:. If this goes through, it seems like it won't turn out very well ;;
Edit: But ZerO beating everyone in BW and SC2 in 1 day intrigues me
As a guy who comes from both worlds (I <3 both BW and SC2), let me say that this is the dumbest way of putting both BW and SC2 in PL that I could have imagined lol.
Here's the rub. There can only be one. Putting both in one League to bolster your ratings while shaking up the competitive balance? It's ridiculous. We've seen it once before with SA. No one wanted to watch that shit. I'm sorry. It's a stupid idea. I much rather they just do a SC2 PL compared to that shit. The results of having both in the mix doesn't make for a good product.
Ladies and gentlemen, please don't take this troll too seriously.
Have a great day.
I agree folks, dont take the guy thats attempting to be unbiased about things opinion over the people that just say, "trolololollol lmfao" because, well that would just be foolish.
Obviously the intelligence factor speaks for itself concerning that one.
Thanks man, I am actually having a nice day :D
Unbiased over opinion you say?...that's funny
You say BW is an eyesore but sc2 is not...well guess what? That's a fucking opinion. Personally I think sc2 is a huge eye sore with its god awful units and mechanics. Doesn't make it a fact though. But it also means your statements arent facts, but in fact opinions. Terrible post
I just gave what I personally thought were the pros and the cons of each game. That is the complete opposite of bias. If I was biased I would have listed nothing but pros for SC2 and nothing but cons for BW O____O
Jesus Christ you BW fanboys are sensitive.
Personal opinion = unbias?
Jesus Christ you SC2 fanboys are stupid.
Interesting, lets just break out the dictionary on this one alright Aristotle?
bi·as/ˈbīəs/ Noun: Prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/ Noun: A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Not saying my views were based off of strict fact, really were just my opinion.
How was anything I posted unfair or excessively favoring another? D:
My personal thought on SC2 was that it was a piece of shit. I'm not being biased or something, just posting my personal thought.
And to be fair, you are completely entitled to your opinion.
I personally love both games, but you dont have to like SC2, that was kind of the entire point I was attempting to make, that both games have good and bad.
"Bias is an inclination to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives. Bias can come in many forms." My opinion was based on my biased point of view. Just to let you know.
All I can say to that man, is dont have the balls to sit there and call me out on being biased when I am trying to be equally fair to both(amazing) games, and you readily admit that you are biased and narrow minded(you are entitled to this, but dont step on my feet just because thats your approach) in your approach to it.
LOL. Seriously, you are hopeless. You were being biased and that is it. No need to argue or start shit
EPT
