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On November 27 2011 16:43 white_horse wrote:
does anyone else think that best of 5 is too short and prevents non A-class players from participating? I mean when you have a team like CJ, they only need to send out their 5 best players in a situation where they probably only need 3 or 4 to actually win. Then they don't need to send out anybody other than leta, horang2, hydra, effort, movie, etc etc...
I think everyone agrees with that.
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Russian Federation3329 Posts
Awesome~ hehe... I like it 
but sea comes out as baby in the strat part~
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On the other hand STX would prefer Bo3 with ace match. Bo7 is painful to watch regularly, Bo5 is fine. The lack of ace match counterbalances very well.
Although I feel any BW competition should be decided by a Fantasy vs Clam Bo9 casted live by Kwark.
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Agreed on most points, but I'm not so sure about
Bisu's immaculate game sense sniffed out any DT shennanigans Jaehoon was planning.
I felt that if Jaehoon hadn't revealed his DTs by attacking the dragoons in front of his base, he could've got some serious probe kills (Bisu didn't start his observatory until it happened). Though, the decision to cancel the robo as it was finishing was probably a game-ender anyway.
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I liked baby's manner d-matrix haha
jaedong lost because of one little mistake really which was he didn't know about the hole in his simcity which allowed best to run his zealots in and get a nice flank on the sunkens. the storm drop follow up was good too. it was pretty much downhill from there on.
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Sea did an admirable job of trying to crawl back into the game. Considering he lost half of his workers and his first tank with the goon runby, he did ok. Sun's army management and map presence later in the game was kind of weak. If Sea hadn't been so badly crippled early on, he would have been steamrolled, I think.
The Jaedong game was just facepalm. That's one of those losses that would've made me quit the game for a week or so. Losing because of a bad simcity allowing +1 Zealots get full surrounds on your sunks is just terrible...
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On November 27 2011 16:43 white_horse wrote:
does anyone else think that best of 5 is too short and prevents non A-class players from participating? I mean when you have a team like CJ, they only need to send out their 5 best players in a situation where they probably only need 3 or 4 to actually win. Then they don't need to send out anybody other than leta, horang2, hydra, effort, movie, etc etc...
I agree 100%, really not happy with the current setup. Hopefully we get more overall matches or something to compensate.
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On November 27 2011 17:44 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 16:43 white_horse wrote:
does anyone else think that best of 5 is too short and prevents non A-class players from participating? I mean when you have a team like CJ, they only need to send out their 5 best players in a situation where they probably only need 3 or 4 to actually win. Then they don't need to send out anybody other than leta, horang2, hydra, effort, movie, etc etc... I think everyone agrees with that.
nope, bo5 is fine, I actually like it a lot better than last year's format. we get to see more quality games because there are more high-class players facing off against each other, and less newbies fumbling around on the stage. it's also a lot easier on my schedule lol
people always say things like oh but we need new rookies and talent to come into the scene and i think that's fine valid point. but it was only recently the bo7 format was used, before that it was bo5 and we had plenty of new talent emerge from the format.
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On November 28 2011 18:06 whatusername wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 17:44 Dakkas wrote:On November 27 2011 16:43 white_horse wrote:
does anyone else think that best of 5 is too short and prevents non A-class players from participating? I mean when you have a team like CJ, they only need to send out their 5 best players in a situation where they probably only need 3 or 4 to actually win. Then they don't need to send out anybody other than leta, horang2, hydra, effort, movie, etc etc... I think everyone agrees with that. nope, bo5 is fine, I actually like it a lot better than last year's format. we get to see more quality games because there are more high-class players facing off against each other, and less newbies fumbling around on the stage. it's also a lot easier on my schedule lol people always say things like oh but we need new rookies and talent to come into the scene and i think that's fine valid point. but it was only recently the bo7 format was used, before that it was bo5 and we had plenty of new talent emerge from the format.
I think that thanks to no ace match rookies do have their time to shine + Show Spoiler +Samsung Khan vs. Woojin Stars
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less games gives more time and rest for the players to stay sharp and prepare strategies so the new format doesn't worry me. lack of ace match does kind of take away some of the extra excitement at the end of a match though.
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hey anyone know where i can watch these with english commentary???
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Yeah Bo5 isnt that bad for those of us with AdHd tendencies, lol  Gets straight into the action, with high quality clashes in every match, and less likelyhood of skill-mismatched players getting selected in rofl-stomps
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Can someone with a better understanding than I explain the point of Jaedong's build this game. I realize he was done in by harass and as such his timings were likely messed up, but the build itself strikes me as odd. He goes for a quick 4 base and then pumps nothing but hydras for defense/a (late) mid game push. It was my understanding that having nothing but hydras for defense was the reason people stopped doing the old standard 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra any more...and this just seems to be a version of the same strategy that is significantly weaker in the midgame. Is he gambling on the protoss playing greedy and trying to take a fast third that his hydras will shut down (but surely he has enough map presence to know that this isnt the case)?
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Thanks alot for this writeup GTR. I hope you do some more .
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On November 29 2011 07:39 sheaRZerg wrote:
Can someone with a better understanding than I explain the point of Jaedong's build this game. I realize he was done in by harass and as such his timings were likely messed up, but the build itself strikes me as odd. He goes for a quick 4 base and then pumps nothing but hydras for defense/a (late) mid game push. It was my understanding that having nothing but hydras for defense was the reason people stopped doing the old standard 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra any more...and this just seems to be a version of the same strategy that is significantly weaker in the midgame. Is he gambling on the protoss playing greedy and trying to take a fast third that his hydras will shut down (but surely he has enough map presence to know that this isnt the case)?
That's what ran through my head when I saw him do it.
I think he was trying to capitalize with a very greedy build. His main Sim was good, but it all fell apart when BeSt found the ninja expo and Jaedong just didn't have enough units let alone the proper units to deal with the oncoming onslaught. When I saw BeSt go straight for archons I knew JD was in a tight hole. Perfect combo at that time to do serious damage.
BeSt also opened up with forge first, so I guess JD thought he could try to get away with it.
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10387 Posts
hoooooooooooooooookay, it seems like a lot of people have totally missed the past two years of PvZ development or something because there are way too many people confused about fast four base turtle play and thinking that taking a quick third is nonstandard or something
First off, a fast third has always been a standard response to Forge FE. On 4-player maps where Zergs can take another natural, taking the fourth is pretty much standard too. It is never a ninja expo. A ninja expo in ZvP is something like taking a fourth that's not protected by your 3rd (say on FS, you spawn bot left and you take bot right's nat as a third, but then you also take 12 as another expo. I think Hyun did something similar to that).
With the development of simcity, 4base turtle play on 3-4p maps became possible since Zergs didn't have to rely on short rush distance to defend anymore. Around this era 09-10, PvZ sucked a lot because both 3base and 4base play was very strong and Protoss had to prepare to deal with a huge variety of midgame strategies with inefficient strategies.
Fast forward a year or so, and in the 10-11 season, Protoss basically solved 3base ZvP with newer, better strategies because when Protoss played correctly, they would almost always be ahead in the midgame against a 3base strategy. So Zergs in response developed builds that would essentially let go of midgame map control, in favor for builds that jumped straight to the late-game with them on a more equal, if not advantaged footing. In finding. A lot of Zergs died tried to do this kind of play early on the season, but as the season progressed Zergs got better at blocking timing attacks and owning Protosses lategame with Defiler/Lurker/Ling/Hydra abuse (most famously on Aztec)
However Zergs did not always play to go straight to lategame, but would instead sometimes trick the Protoss with a sudden Hydra wave after blocking the Protoss's timing attack. Jaedong's strategy was exactly that, and it was completely sound and standard, done many times by other Zerg progamers. The problem was, Jaedong's strategy hinged on egg-blocking a gap in his simcity to survive while he built up a strong economy, and he fucked it up when Best attacked the third.
If you were to watch earlier in the game, Best's attack on the natural fails because Best could not get to the sunkens .. because Jaedong blocked a hole with an egg! Had Jaedong been able to do the same at his third (which he easily should've), he would've come out ahead economy-wise and probably deny any third base by Best w/ his Hydralisks. Tough that Jaedong's loss hinged on that single mistake, but that's the simple reason why he lost the game with an otherwise sound strategy.
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Really great work GTR! Definitely helps me remember what to watch for in the VODs :D
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On November 28 2011 13:06 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 16:43 white_horse wrote:
does anyone else think that best of 5 is too short and prevents non A-class players from participating? I mean when you have a team like CJ, they only need to send out their 5 best players in a situation where they probably only need 3 or 4 to actually win. Then they don't need to send out anybody other than leta, horang2, hydra, effort, movie, etc etc... I agree 100%, really not happy with the current setup. Hopefully we get more overall matches or something to compensate.
Agree too--I thought they fixed the whole "ace player + 1 win" problem by making it BO7??
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EPT
