Testie refuses to forfeit the game, as he is 100% sure he were winning the match against Breakdown[pG] on Ash Rose. GosuGamers crew has put the match on hold until a final decision has been made.
During the last deciding game (after 3-3) in a Protoss versus Zerg game on Ash Rose, Breakdown[pG] disconnects after killing off an attempt from ToT)Testie(rS to break the containment of Hydralisks that were held on him outside his base. The remnants of Testie's troops (including a few High Templars and a few Zealots) moves back in to the Protoss base, heavily guarded in the small entrance by lots of cannons. Just seconds later, Breakdown disconnects from the game. When we come back in the channel, Testie refuses to regame the match, saying he is 100% sure he would have won that game, since he believes he had him outmacroed. Breakdown on the other hand says that he had the entrance blocked and had lurkers on the way and had the upper hand.
Tough decision, match on hold A decision regarding something like this is always tough to make, which is why the final decision will have to wait. The decision will be handled with care and justice, and no sudden actions will be made. The replay from the seventh game is available for you to download. Press the link below to download it. A final statement regarding this controversy will come up as soon as possible."
If you're too lazy to read, Testie and Breakdown were tied at 3-3. In the 9th minute of the last and deciding match, Breakdown unfortunately got disconnected from the game.
Testie then refused to replay the match, because he was '100% certain' that he had actually already won! Breakdown on the other hand, said that he had Testie contained, and that lurkers were on its way, which is very hard to get out of on a map like Ash Rose.
My opinion on this after watching the replay, is that Breakdown actually won it by a longshot. Testie just wasted his entire army, robotics facility wasn't even started yet (not sure about this one, as he might've built it during the final battle in the replay which I was watching), and breakdown had lurker aspect ready and a 3rd base (5th hatch) coming. After that he could just kept containing, and drop testie's expand, or w/e.
IMO there was no way that Testie could've won. I think that Breakdown should be awarded the win and the title 'King of the Hill'. Discuss what you think about this match.
I honestly don't see how testie can claim a win for this. How is he supposed to break that contain really fast? The entrances in ash rose are so great for lurk contain, I think he'd spend a minimum of 5 minutes getting out, and by then break could have secured another main + nat with lurks/sunks, teched to hive, and have ultras coming. That's IF testie could get out in the first place, break is incredible with his hydra/lurk contains, because his hydra micro is outstanding.
It's still rough to award a winner of a bo7 based on a disconnect game...if what you're saying about the match is true, he should've just given a rematch and played. If you're right about the advantage, Testie will just lose by decision, so there was no point in him denying a rematch.
I have not yet seen the replay, but I posted an idea about redoing the game on the gosugamers forums. Most of them think its a good idea, although there is an obvious downside... I could remake the map (wouldnt take more than a few days if I do it a couple hours a day... and thats probably still more time than I'd need) so that everything is built where it was in the game, then they can play from there. The downside? They know what each other has and is building, even though Im sure both of them (being on the level they are) knew what to expect from the other.
Heh, I actually thought testie had that won after the first time I watched it, and not convinced he didn't even after the second +_+ He was still almost 20 supply ahead, even after losing that much shit TT
But really, he should RE eitherway. Didn't you re him 4 times or so when he kept discing?
Oh and breakdown refused to re too when testie changed his mind ;o
testie could DEFINITELY rightfully claim a regame. even if his own chances of winning were ~10%, it was the deciding game and breakdown was the one who disconnected. and I believe testie's chances of winning were closer to 50% than 10%, although I'd surely give the current advantage to breakdown.
now, claiming a win when you don't have an obvious advantage is gay no matter who disconnected so in this case where testie definitely didn't have a clear advantage and arguably was at a disadvantage, the obvious solution to me would be regame
but then testie was gay and immediately wanted a win cause he "couldn't possibly lose", and then breakdown retaliated through being gay on his own and refusing to regame after testie came to his senses and wanted a regame anyway.
so unless something has happened since the last time I updated myself on this, they're both being kinda gay.
this is the reason why testie fans should all be shot, imo. All he does is let down people with his ego. I say we chastize him again and dont let him back in the BW community, thats just my opinion
edit: just read drone's comments, hrm breakdown refused? thats pretty gay, too actually, i dunno tough call, still dont like testie though~ but he shouldnt be banished from the community if he did finally come to his senses --; (if for a brief moment)
Testie - *Reminder to Ksenya, send those songs!!* says: Wake up. We are regaming now. Testie - *Reminder to Ksenya, send those songs!!* says: You, me, brood war scanner Testie - *Reminder to Ksenya, send those songs!!* says: And that's it. Chris says: no. Testie - *Reminder to Ksenya, send those songs!!* says: I will lose this series now. Testie - *Reminder to Ksenya, send those songs!!* says: What do you mean no? Testie - *Reminder to Ksenya, send those songs!!* says: This is a moment of clarity in my unbridled rage. Play now. Chris says: u lost, why would i regame ?
that log was posted by testie so I dunno what was said before or after (although I know testie had refused to regame prior to this, with the explanation that he had a clear advantage or that he couldn't lose or something. )
the game had a lot of playing to be done. in my opinion the next minutes of the game would've happened as follows - testie kills the hydras outside of his base, and if his army could move fast as vultures, he could go win the game or do enough damage to make an obvious advantage. however since his army would move too slowly to do that, breakdown would make some sunkens and with lurker aspect be able to defend. then testie would have map control, breakdown would have 1 more expansion, and testie would have to expand, contain, and wait for observers (his robotics wasnt started) a big thing is that breakdown didnt even have evolution chambers put down which was gonna kill him in the late game he was getting himself into. i dont understand what he was going for.. upgrades after 3rd base, or keep expanding without upgrades? surely he didnt expect to break testie's choke. it didnt seem to me to be going anywhere unless his contain was unbreakable but his lurkers were coming too late
as a protoss player i'd feel relatively comfortable if the next few minutes went as i described (and those actions arent incredibly hard to do and apparently testie was planning on doing it) but the game had a bit of playing to do and i think it warrants a rematch if you dont punish breakdown for his disconnection. since there is a chance that breakdown did it purposely (which i have no reason to believe) then it becomes unfair to testie to have a regame.. but i still think a regame is the best solution
imo testie had the upperhand, i dont think breakdown would get time to set up the containment in time .. i think testie would get atleast 2 units per gateway before lurkers would be done... the question is if he would have attacked at the right time or not. Basically. Its definatly a regame if u ask me tho....and whoever would claim win there (both being total idiots for doing that) is just stupid, and sad.
On June 06 2005 09:49 NonY wrote: the game had a lot of playing to be done. in my opinion the next minutes of the game would've happened as follows - testie kills the hydras outside of his base, and if his army could move fast as vultures, he could go win the game or do enough damage to make an obvious advantage. however since his army would move too slowly to do that, breakdown would make some sunkens and with lurker aspect be able to defend. then testie would have map control, breakdown would have 1 more expansion, and testie would have to expand, contain, and wait for observers (his robotics wasnt started) a big thing is that breakdown didnt even have evolution chambers put down which was gonna kill him in the late game he was getting himself into. i dont understand what he was going for.. upgrades after 3rd base, or keep expanding without upgrades? surely he didnt expect to break testie's choke. it didnt seem to me to be going anywhere unless his contain was unbreakable but his lurkers were coming too late
as a protoss player i'd feel relatively comfortable if the next few minutes went as i described (and those actions arent incredibly hard to do and apparently testie was planning on doing it) but the game had a bit of playing to do and i think it warrants a rematch if you dont punish breakdown for his disconnection. since there is a chance that breakdown did it purposely (which i have no reason to believe) then it becomes unfair to testie to have a regame.. but i still think a regame is the best solution
there is no way testie would've killed the hydras outside his base before breakdown got lurkers..just before breakdown disced testie lost most of his army and he was badly outnumbered afterwards..was something like 5-8~zeals+some temps and 4 gates producing while breakdown had about 2 groups of hydras iirc...
edit: my memory was a bit off :p apparently testie had 6 gates+2more building..and testie had 6zealots+5templars
ah i didnt take note of the range upgrade, although it does help us understand wtf breakdown was doing in that game. apparently he was very concerned with his contain but i think he was being too greedy having put down a 5th hatch, causing the lurkers to come too late
Another thing, breakdown had all his hydras neatly bunched up just outside testie's choke, what the fuck was he doing there? Going to attack? If so, I'd say testie would have definitely won.
btw it's 6 zealots + 5 HT vs 19 hydra. 6 gates making units and 7th and 8th gateways just started.
understandably people are supporting breakdown from different directions, but if you add up people's arguments they dont make sense together, which takes away from their validity
it's fucked up for breakdown to disconnect and then refuse to regame when testie offers. you cant disc and ask for win
blah it is silly and im gonna stop posting before i provoke people to counter what im saying and get myself tied up in some obligation to continue posting in this thread >.<
On June 06 2005 10:07 NonY wrote: it's fucked up for breakdown to disconnect and then refuse to regame when testie offers. you cant disc and ask for win
blah it is silly and im gonna stop posting before i provoke people to counter what im saying and get myself tied up in some obligation to continue posting in this thread >.<
In breakdown's defense, when testie finally wanted to re, it was like 1 a.m. CET, a little late for a showmatch.
On June 06 2005 09:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: testie could DEFINITELY rightfully claim a regame. even if his own chances of winning were ~10%, it was the deciding game and breakdown was the one who disconnected. and I believe testie's chances of winning were closer to 50% than 10%, although I'd surely give the current advantage to breakdown.
now, claiming a win when you don't have an obvious advantage is gay no matter who disconnected so in this case where testie definitely didn't have a clear advantage and arguably was at a disadvantage, the obvious solution to me would be regame
but then testie was gay and immediately wanted a win cause he "couldn't possibly lose", and then breakdown retaliated through being gay on his own and refusing to regame after testie came to his senses and wanted a regame anyway.
so unless something has happened since the last time I updated myself on this, they're both being kinda gay.
Exactly right. They're both being gay.
Testie must've been pissed after break disced and felt robbed. Break must've been pissed after Testie's early refusal. But if they can't enter this with clear heads and play a regame now that they've had a chance to cool down, they're just being stubborn assholes.
Neither of them had they game won. It's retarded to say that. Additionally, I don't think either even had an advantage and people are letting their biases do the judging for them.
Break had 21 hydras. Nothing else. Testie had 6 Zealots and 5 Templar behind a huge cannon wall.
Testie had 2 fully active ecos, 6 gates, 2 gates building, extra min/gas, second forge coming, Attack upgrade, armour upgrade half done.
Break had 2 fully active ecos, min only with 4 drones on it, 5 hatch, 6 hydras building, evo building, half done ranged attack upgrade, no hive yet, no tech higher than den.
I'm sorry Twisted, but that doesn't look at all like Break had the game won. It was a 50/50 shot for them both, and as Nony said, the game had a lot of playing to do. Break was attacking the cannon wall (which he couldn't see) as the disc happened. Who knows how many hydras he would've lost before backing off. Testie would've massed a bit more and broke out with 1-1 upgrades against a zerg with maybe one attack upgrade done.
I think you're letting your dislike of Testie blind you to the game situation. And for those talking about the contain, it wasn't even there anymore. 16 hydras sitting infront of a choke without lurker aspect done researching qualifies as a contain now? Gimme a fucking break.
They should regame on the same map, the remaking the game idea is dumb seeing as they both know what is happening in the rep now. Any "remade win" would be meaningless.
Just replay the game and bring this to a close.
EDIT: As Nony did, I also forgot about the range up. o_0 Still doesn't change my opinion.
Not range (evo was complete which makes me think you think his hydra range was halfway done which is not what I meant) -_- Range attack ie 1+ damage for hydras.
On June 06 2005 10:22 FrozenArbiter wrote: Not range (evo was complete which makes me think you think his hydra range was halfway done which is not what I meant) -_- Range attack ie 1+ damage for hydras.
I'm aware. By range upgrade I meant ranged attack up grade. He already had both den ups. Guess I'll edit it again, but that was what I ment.
At the end of game 7 Testie was in better condition than most of the game 6 and he still won it so I don't see how beak could've won. Pus the fact that it's break who disconnected and had less stats so Testie had the right to not want a regame(that would have been nice tho)
On June 06 2005 10:07 NonY wrote: it's fucked up for breakdown to disconnect and then refuse to regame when testie offers. you cant disc and ask for win
blah it is silly and im gonna stop posting before i provoke people to counter what im saying and get myself tied up in some obligation to continue posting in this thread >.<
Man, shut up! Testie immediately claimed the win and refuse to regame after breakdown came back online, now that would have pissed even Jesus off. I can understand why breakdown then refused to game.
seems in most people's oppinion it was close and definitly not a clear advantage to testie, testie refused to re should then equal a forfeit. The fact that he changed his mind later and was met with the same stupidity he displayed in the first case shouldn't matter. (although it would have been nice to avoid that)
most people's opinion doesnt matter, any good player can see that testie pretty much won the game unless he would majorly fuck on micro which he isnt known for doing so.....
On June 06 2005 09:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: testie could DEFINITELY rightfully claim a regame. even if his own chances of winning were ~10%, it was the deciding game and breakdown was the one who disconnected. and I believe testie's chances of winning were closer to 50% than 10%, although I'd surely give the current advantage to breakdown.
now, claiming a win when you don't have an obvious advantage is gay no matter who disconnected so in this case where testie definitely didn't have a clear advantage and arguably was at a disadvantage, the obvious solution to me would be regame
but then testie was gay and immediately wanted a win cause he "couldn't possibly lose", and then breakdown retaliated through being gay on his own and refusing to regame after testie came to his senses and wanted a regame anyway.
so unless something has happened since the last time I updated myself on this, they're both being kinda gay.
Break had 21 hydras. Nothing else. Testie had 6 Zealots and 5 Templar behind a huge cannon wall.
Testie had 2 fully active ecos, 6 gates, 2 gates building, extra min/gas, second forge coming, Attack upgrade, armour upgrade half done.
Break had 2 fully active ecos, min only with 4 drones on it, 5 hatch, 6 hydras building, evo building, half done ranged attack upgrade, no hive yet, no tech higher than den.
I'm sorry Twisted, but that doesn't look at all like Break had the game won. It was a 50/50 shot for them both, and as Nony said, the game had a lot of playing to do. Break was attacking the cannon wall (which he couldn't see) as the disc happened. Who knows how many hydras he would've lost before backing off. Testie would've massed a bit more and broke out with 1-1 upgrades against a zerg with maybe one attack upgrade done.
I think you're letting your dislike of Testie blind you to the game situation. And for those talking about the contain, it wasn't even there anymore. 16 hydras sitting infront of a choke without lurker aspect done researching qualifies as a contain now? Gimme a fucking break.
I don't know which replay you were watching, but Breakdown's lurker aspect was nearly finished. Testie didn't have shit yet, with the constant 5 hatch stream of hydra's, Testie WOULD'VE been contained. And being a player who doesn't mindlessly sacrifice 12 hydra's on 6 zealots and 7 cannons, I don't think he would've lost more than 1 hydra to his 'attack'. In the right mindset (the one he probably had), he would've just checked it out, poked on testie's zealots a bit, see if he can keep him busy while getting lurkers.
About the upgrade part, he was upgrading hydra weapon. I'm fairly certain that he would at least get a second evolution chamber afterwards. Even if testie would be able to get out, which I highly doubt, cannons wouldn't be up fast enough to counter the lurkers.
And if he got contained, his robo wasn't even started, come on, there's no way Testie could win then. Testie himself even acknowledges that he probably would get contained, and says: oh contain isn't that hard to get out of, you just need storm! The fact of the matter is, he didn't even have a robotics facility yet. By the time he has it, Breakdown will have half the map, massive amounts of units, a gigantic eco, and a contain with 12 lurkers or more in that tight spot. Sure, storm away, before you have those lurkers erased, breakdown will have the chance to build 20 more.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone can say that it was 50/50. On a map like that which actually favours ZvP pretty much BECAUSE of the tight entrance, and what's most important, the gas expand where you can't even build a decent amount of cannons. The only thing Breakdown needed after his (probably succesful) contain, is to get drop, and gg.
The reason why this game should be replayed actually, is because Breakdown was the one who disced. If it were Testie discing, he should certainly be getting the win.
Oh, and I do not dislike Testie at all, he's at my friends list on Europe.
the impression I got from those hydras at the end was just that they were going to pick off the stray templar. (which did not have energy. )
I can see testie winning that game. seen him come back from worse scenarios many times, although at least 90% of the time due to his opponent somehow fucking up. I think breakdown had the advantage although small. and yeah, testie would probably have started a robotics right when the game ended (I didn't see one at least) but unless breakdown somehow morphed all lurkers in the same spot and testie tried busting out before they were finished morphing, he would have been contained, and on a map like that, it wouldve been a bitch to break out of. however at the same time it's very easy to elevate zealots and templars to go around the backdoor on the very same map, so you never know what would have happened. regame wouldve been the proper way to do it regardless of who had disced. :[
On June 06 2005 10:50 ret wrote: most people's opinion doesnt matter, any good player can see that testie pretty much won the game unless he would majorly fuck on micro which he isnt known for doing so.....
Kinda cool to see testie play PvZ in the last two important matchs. After seeing the semi vs Ret the other day and this showmatch I think his PvZ is getting better than his TvZ . It would be great to see a BO7 Testie vs Mondi PvZ, Mondi would probably win but it would be great to see
Ok I just finished observing the replay.. Judging not only from the battle situation they were in, with the skills and the strategy involved, I think testie had the upperhand.. honestly.. Some people claming that Breakdown should be awarded a win because he was in the lead is retarded.. It was breakdown who was disconnected ok? If I was to hold a tornament and set up the rules, I'd give automatic loss to whoever gets disconnected whether intentional or unintentional which would save a lot of hassle and conspiracies.
Nobody is claiming Testie or Breakdown would've won. We are just arguing about who had the advantage and that means we all want and agree a regame is in order, so gogo re boyz.
On June 06 2005 11:33 WickeD wrote: Nobody is claiming Testie or Breakdown would've won. We are just arguing about who had the advantage and that means we all want and agree a regame is in order, so gogo re boyz.
Actually alot of people claim either of them had won. The fact that there's so many different opinions about this should obviously lead to the conclusion anything could have happened.
On June 06 2005 11:33 WickeD wrote: Nobody is claiming Testie or Breakdown would've won. We are just arguing about who had the advantage and that means we all want and agree a regame is in order, so gogo re boyz.
Nobody? Read the whole thread again man.. R u sure about that?
On June 06 2005 11:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: lurkers without a robotics on a map where contain is powerful means zerg will have a shitload of time to power/upgrade and taking the map. they should just regame neither of them can claim they won. though after Testie not being willing to regame I can understand Breakdowns reaction =[. I guess he realized too late that testie is a faggot not worth his time.
The rules on their website state that if 1 player feels he had the advantage, the admins must make the decision. And its not like Testie is out of line thinking he had the advantage. Many top calibur players have agreed with testie completely: he had a *clear* advantage. I'm not trying to imply that testie is right, but i think it shows with clarity that many players would come to Testie's conclusion. It's not just Testies ego flying high. Ret says testie was clearly ahead. So does Trek. So does FA. You say that breakdown was ahead, so does twisted and Eri..
But pretty much all of that is irrelevant. Breakdown was the person who disced. That alone gives Testie the sole right to accept or refuse a rematch. Not only that, but he took a position (which is encouraged by the rules) where the admins must make a decision for themselves.
If you were jipped out of a game you thought u were clearly winning, would you not be angry as well? Would you accept a rematch immidiately? Not only that, but Testie did have a chance to calm down. He did offer to rematch.
And now the player who has disconnected feels like he has been wronged because his opponent wanted to have the match investigated before rematching? GIve me a break.
well, 1tym, this is mostly a showmatch with no prizes. if there were prizes, then I could easily understand why they would both want the win. but this is a showmatch.. the 7th game in a best of 7 being decided by a disconnect when the game is fairly even, (definitely neither side having WON) when the main purpose of the game is entertaining the hundreds of people who pay attention to these kinds of games, is BAD.
On June 06 2005 11:32 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Actually he didn't disconnect. Never lost connection and entered the channel right after.
That's if you believe him. No reason to think he would make that up for me atleast.
That happens sometimes when you are disconnected from the game but not from the battlenet. Either way it doesn't change the fact that he was disconnected.
On June 06 2005 11:32 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Actually he didn't disconnect. Never lost connection and entered the channel right after.
That's if you believe him. No reason to think he would make that up for me atleast.
He exited the game.
You can call it a disconnect, you can call it 'bugging out of the game', you can call it 'bw being gay', or whatever the fuck else suits the situation.
Isn't the point that it happened on Breakdowns end? Breakdown is the one who <insert error of choice here>.
I am not trying to argue and I never mentioned anything about whether the two players had been acting sensibly or not during/ after the game.. I am not really interested in the moral aspects of the players...
On June 06 2005 11:36 Teroru wrote: If you were jipped out of a game you thought u were clearly winning, would you not be angry as well? Would you accept a rematch immidiately? Not only that, but Testie did have a chance to calm down. He did offer to rematch.
he demanded that the rematch happen as soon as he asked at 1am breakdowns time. i think id be inclined to say no if i was breakdown too.
On June 06 2005 11:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: well, 1tym, this is mostly a showmatch with no prizes. if there were prizes, then I could easily understand why they would both want the win. but this is a showmatch.. the 7th game in a best of 7 being decided by a disconnect when the game is fairly even, (definitely neither side having WON) when the main purpose of the game is entertaining the hundreds of people who pay attention to these kinds of games, is BAD.
Showmatch implies that a lot of people are looking forward to that particular games and as you mentioned, it is to be audienced by "hundreds of people who pay attention to these kind of games" right? You don't see why both player wanted a win? Some players value the prize more, some value their pride more..
On June 06 2005 11:36 Teroru wrote: The rules on their website state that if 1 player feels he had the advantage, the admins must make the decision. And its not like Testie is out of line thinking he had the advantage. Many top calibur players have agreed with testie completely: he had a *clear* advantage. I'm not trying to imply that testie is right, but i think it shows with clarity that many players would come to Testie's conclusion. It's not just Testies ego flying high. Ret says testie was clearly ahead. So does Trek. So does FA. You say that breakdown was ahead, so does twisted and Eri..
But pretty much all of that is irrelevant. Breakdown was the person who disced. That alone gives Testie the sole right to accept or refuse a rematch. Not only that, but he took a position (which is encouraged by the rules) where the admins must make a decision for themselves.
If you were jipped out of a game you thought u were clearly winning, would you not be angry as well? Would you accept a rematch immidiately? Not only that, but Testie did have a chance to calm down. He did offer to rematch.
And now the player who has disconnected feels like he has been wronged because his opponent wanted to have the match investigated before rematching? GIve me a break.
Of course I would rematch immidiately versus a respected player such as Breakdown (the only people I would not rematch are those who I dislike, but I wouldn't play a showmatch against them in the first place). There is absolutely no way you can claim an absolute win in a game like that. It's completely ridiculous to think the outcome of this game is 100% sure.
I never said Breakdown was winning by the way. What I meant to say with my post is that the outcome of this game is unclear and Breakdown definitely had a CHANCE of being victorious. Breakdown got dropped from the game, but was never disconnected (from neither bnet nor his own connection), since I believe him when he says that I don't even consider it a 'disconnect' nor would I personally rule it like one. It's not like it took him 40 minutes to log back to bnet so Testie had to wait. He was there and they could have regamed right away, which Testie refused. I can very well understand Breakdown losing motivation to play another day after that. UNDERSTAND. That does not mean I agree with it (before it gets interpreted wrongfully again).
Testie had the advantage. not just becoz of the lead in supply or resources. The advantage was also in the building sequence. breakdown chose to tech and mass hydra , which played right into the build of Testie. HT hardcore zealots chew through hydras. lurker tech was too late to be effective. The timing and control of Testie's first breakout attempt was a bit off, otherwise he could 've won the game right there.
On June 06 2005 11:50 1tym wrote: Showmatch implies that a lot of people are looking forward to that particular games and as you mentioned, it is to be audienced by "hundreds of people who pay attention to these kind of games" right? You don't see why both player wanted a win? Some players value the prize more, some value their pride more..
So you tell me.. Where's the pride in everyone hating your guts? Where's the pride in refusing a regame?
i believe both players have behaved very badly, specially since this is a competition for the community. Its really egoistic and disrespectable to Gosugamers.net to act in this way. None of them should be granted with the award.
So you tell me.. Where's the pride in everyone hating your guts? Where's the pride in refusing a regame?
I don't see everyone hating their guts, I look at testie, possibly one of the most skillful yet bad mannered foreign bw player, always acting in an immature manner, interestingly has ocean of fan boys everywhere.---(Even though in this particular incident, I can understand why he claimed a win and denied a rematch initially..)
Regardless of who was "the one being gay" or whatever, now that they've both had time to cool down, they should reschedule and play the last game.
If I were admin I'd simply say, a rematch will be played. If both players come willingly. If one agrees to play and the other refuses, default win to the willing. If both refuse, admin decision.
On June 06 2005 12:07 1tym wrote: HOWEVER, If at any point both players refuse a regame, then testie should be awarded a win since it was breakdown d/c
lolz it doesnt make sense man . If the rule like that , I dont think Breakdown is stupid not to regame when Testie want to regame .
On June 06 2005 11:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: well, 1tym, this is mostly a showmatch with no prizes. if there were prizes, then I could easily understand why they would both want the win. but this is a showmatch.. the 7th game in a best of 7 being decided by a disconnect when the game is fairly even, (definitely neither side having WON) when the main purpose of the game is entertaining the hundreds of people who pay attention to these kinds of games, is BAD.
Showmatch implies that a lot of people are looking forward to that particular games and as you mentioned, it is to be audienced by "hundreds of people who pay attention to these kind of games" right? You don't see why both player wanted a win? Some players value the prize more, some value their pride more..
the point is, regardless of who gets appointed "king" if they don't play a regame, neither player will be remembered as a winner. this showmatch will remembered as the showmatch that ended 3-3 and then both players chickened out from playing. there's no real pride in winning that, however a prize would still be a real prize. bragging worths are big motivational factors for many players, but what's there to brag about when you play 3-3 and refuse to play the final game?
On June 06 2005 11:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: well, 1tym, this is mostly a showmatch with no prizes. if there were prizes, then I could easily understand why they would both want the win. but this is a showmatch.. the 7th game in a best of 7 being decided by a disconnect when the game is fairly even, (definitely neither side having WON) when the main purpose of the game is entertaining the hundreds of people who pay attention to these kinds of games, is BAD.
Showmatch implies that a lot of people are looking forward to that particular games and as you mentioned, it is to be audienced by "hundreds of people who pay attention to these kind of games" right? You don't see why both player wanted a win? Some players value the prize more, some value their pride more..
the point is, regardless of who gets appointed "king" if they don't play a regame, neither player will be remembered as a winner. this showmatch will remembered as the showmatch that ended 3-3 and then both players chickened out from playing. there's no real pride in winning that, however a prize would still be a real prize. bragging worths are big motivational factors for many players, but what's there to brag about when you play 3-3 and refuse to play the final game?
They refused to play the final game not to end the game as 3-3 status but to obtain a win without any risk of losing from playing another game, regardless of the fact that they both believed that they were in the lead. (Since they would've regamed for sure if they knew they'd take the next match 100%) Well one thing is for sure, it's hella better to be remembered as a winner due to forfeit than as a loser.--> Especially when testie is always going on about the winning ratio against other players.
There wasnt a clear winner. Testie behaved bad manner, and after it, Break did. Still kinda strange, that Break says he didnt disc, so i dont know whats the truth now, after all.
I didnt watch the replay until now, but after all these reads i only come to one conclusion ( Trek and Ret, and many other think testie had advantage , eri , naz, twisted, and others think break had advantage), its as simple as this if u ask me :
Why do so good gamers not agree ? Because you cant really now who would have won this game, because it was all about a few questions : 1) Would Testie attack early enough, or after the lurks would have been spawned ? 2) Would he win vs the hyds with his troops ? it would have been all about the two players micro.. 3) Would have any of the two players made a big mistake ..!?
So this again shows us it would have been all about what would have happened in the next minute.. or maybe minutes.. NO ONE can know this..
So theres only one answer.. make a last deciding game OR a bo3 for the decision..
i think everyone should agree with this.. the canadian testie lovers.. and the breakdown lovers..
On June 06 2005 12:07 1tym wrote: HOWEVER, If at any point both players refuse a regame, then testie should be awarded a win since it was breakdown d/c
lolz it doesnt make sense man . If the rule like that , I dont think Breakdown is stupid not to regame when Testie want to regame .
Don't you not agree that it makes more sense than giving breakdown a win if both players refuse to regame?
I agree with Mora, because it was Breakdown who dropped and the game could have gone either way, there is really no way Breakdown should be given the win without a regame. Without a regame, Testie should get the win.
On June 06 2005 12:31 -PhiL- wrote: There wasnt a clear winner. Testie behaved bad manner, and after it, Break did. Still kinda strange, that Break says he didnt disc, so i dont know whats the truth now, after all.
I didnt watch the replay until now, but after all these reads i only come to one conclusion ( Trek and Ret, and many other think testie had advantage , eri , naz, twisted, and others think break had advantage), its as simple as this if u ask me :
Why do so good gamers not agree ? Because you cant really now who would have won this game, because it was all about a few questions : 1) Would Testie attack early enough, or after the lurks would have been spawned ? 2) Would he win vs the hyds with his troops ? it would have been all about the two players micro.. 3) Would have any of the two players made a big mistake ..!?
So this again shows us it would have been all about what would have happened in the next minute.. or maybe minutes.. NO ONE can know this..
So theres only one answer.. make a last deciding game OR a bo3 for the decision..
i think everyone should agree with this.. the canadian testie lovers.. and the breakdown lovers..
On June 06 2005 12:14 -HamartiA-ThreaT- wrote: ret is right. ret is top 5 non-koreans. listen to ret.
..and you're an idiot.
lolz that hurts twisted's ego ya know
twisted is right twisted is top 5 all time bw player listen to twisted
Now that's a contribution!
Seriously, I'd give the advantage to Testie. I get the feeling he'd break before Lurkers came out, or when they were morphing. He'd kill a couple with storm and run from the rest. Then he'd run and damage break's expansion while the lurkers chase him around. By the time it's over he'd have rob up. Of course, all that's hypothetical. I mean there's a reason why games don't end when one player has an advantage. Anything can happen. If lurks got up that would've been a bitch to break (damn that maps sucks pvz! could be pissy pvp too if you didn't take the initiative to contain).
On June 06 2005 12:07 1tym wrote: HOWEVER, If at any point both players refuse a regame, then testie should be awarded a win since it was breakdown d/c
lolz it doesnt make sense man . If the rule like that , I dont think Breakdown is stupid not to regame when Testie want to regame .
Don't you not agree that it makes more sense than giving breakdown a win if both players refuse to regame?
I mean , if both player dont want to re , and then Testie win . So Breakdown is NOT stupid not to re when Testie doesnt want to re either . If Testie doesnt want to re , Breakdown will want a regame to avoid losing to Testie . But if Breakdown want to regame , then Testie will have to re aswell to avoid giving a freewin to Breakdown . So we'll definitely have a regame if there is a rule like that
there is no other way to decide than regame, i mean you cant claim a win in a game like that -- everything can happen :D
but giving breakdown the win would be totally wrong since he is the one who disconnected, though im not saying giving it to testie would be better. Regame and stfu plz;
But since opnion is pretty much evenly split on who held the advantage, if there isnt a regame, Testie should get the win by default since it was Breakdown who exited the game.
No way should Breakdown get the win without a regame.
Thanx for reflecting upon both player's minds final heaven .................. ............................................................................................................................................ ................................................................................................................................. I think there are slightly more people claiming that testie had the upper hand...(or not!) Someone who's really bored should count them....
It's insanely(heh) hard to say who would really have won. The game could have lead many ways, if Breakdown could have contained Testie badly who had no obs and only zealot/temp, where he could have stormed only one or two lurkers by 2 storms. You just CAN'T say who would have won.
Regame I suppose, but definantly it can't end on Breakdowns favor because he disconnected or dropped, w/e.
i think breakdown had an advantage but it all came down to the next attack which never got to happen if testie waited to long he was contained with no obs to get out and then i do think break would have would have won.if he came out in time he could have broke out killing the hydras and then the whole game change from there.u really cant tell what will happen so i think they should just both be forced to play no more i think i won shit
On June 06 2005 13:22 Oxygen wrote: Haven't watched the game, dunno, I just think when Testie says he's won a game it's probably true :/ Just from my own experience though. Meh.
So you haven't watched replay and think Testie would have won because he said so?
I don't think that's what he's saying, He is just saying that purely based upon his personal experiences with testie it is likely that testie claims a win when he actually has the upper hand.
Final heaven what da hell r u talking about you funny bloke. He never claimed a win against Draco because he stole his gas. He just wanted the game to be cancelled since Draco paused the game for a long time and testie had to leave as his dad brought him a lunch home. It was only 4 minutes after the game has commenced thus he wanted the game to be cancelled.
On June 06 2005 13:01 1tym wrote: Thanx for reflecting upon both player's minds final heaven .................. ............................................................................................................................................ ................................................................................................................................. I think there are slightly more people claiming that testie had the upper hand...(or not!) Someone who's really bored should count them....
I'm interested in popular opinion of our TLnet members as well. I'm making a poll...
But the problem with the poll is .. that people will just start voting without even seeing the rep in accordance with their preferance of the players. If we stick to the forum, at least we'll be provided with a reason to why they think one of them was in upperhand.
Damn long thread with only a point RE GA ME. If i were a GG.net admin I will ask for regame, the player wich disagrees loses, if both disagree kick both of them from KOTH and look for another good match.
This is a game, it is suposed to be played. If something like this happens, the answer should be a regame. Thats my opnion ^^
On June 06 2005 13:22 Oxygen wrote: Haven't watched the game, dunno, I just think when Testie says he's won a game it's probably true :/ Just from my own experience though. Meh.
Yes, because we can always trust Testie's judgement.
On June 06 2005 11:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Of course I would rematch immidiately versus a respected player such as Breakdown (the only people I would not rematch are those who I dislike, but I wouldn't play a showmatch against them in the first place). There is absolutely no way you can claim an absolute win in a game like that. It's completely ridiculous to think the outcome of this game is 100% sure.
I never said Breakdown was winning by the way. What I meant to say with my post is that the outcome of this game is unclear and Breakdown definitely had a CHANCE of being victorious. Breakdown got dropped from the game, but was never disconnected (from neither bnet nor his own connection), since I believe him when he says that I don't even consider it a 'disconnect' nor would I personally rule it like one. It's not like it took him 40 minutes to log back to bnet so Testie had to wait. He was there and they could have regamed right away, which Testie refused. I can very well understand Breakdown losing motivation to play another day after that. UNDERSTAND. That does not mean I agree with it (before it gets interpreted wrongfully again).
I apologize for taking your original post out of context. Looking back, it's clear that you were not agreeing with breakdowns refusal to regame.
And had i been in Testie's position, i would have also rematched without a moments hesitation. So ultimately i agree with everything you've said. I can also understand how breakdown might not want to rematch after Testie's initial refusal.
However, i think that with the way the situation currently stands, breakdown needs to suck it up and rematch, or accept a loss. I don't feel breakdown is in a position to refuse anything, as it was his starcraft that booted him from the game. I really hope that they can reconcile and have a really awesome, mannered, 7th game-rematch.
On June 06 2005 12:21 1tym wrote: They refused to play the final game not to end the game as 3-3 status but to obtain a win without any risk of losing from playing another game, regardless of the fact that they both believed that they were in the lead. (Since they would've regamed for sure if they knew they'd take the next match 100%) Well one thing is for sure, it's hella better to be remembered as a winner due to forfeit than as a loser.
what a joke.
Its by far better to go down with pride than it is to be a chicken-shit winner. The players i have the most respect for are ones who are mannered, not ones who can beat me more than i can beat them. And quite frankly, the only opinions that matter are the opinions of the people i respect. The same people that have that manner, sportsmanship, or whatever you want to name the quality that makes competition worth competing in.
Drone is absolutely right. No one is gonna consider either of these guys a winner if they dont finish off the series.
This is ridiculous. I wish the higher tier players wouldn't act so childish.
On June 06 2005 12:31 -PhiL- wrote: There wasnt a clear winner. Testie behaved bad manner, and after it, Break did. Still kinda strange, that Break says he didnt disc, so i dont know whats the truth now, after all.
I didnt watch the replay until now, but after all these reads i only come to one conclusion ( Trek and Ret, and many other think testie had advantage , eri , naz, twisted, and others think break had advantage), its as simple as this if u ask me :
Why do so good gamers not agree ? Because you cant really now who would have won this game, because it was all about a few questions : 1) Would Testie attack early enough, or after the lurks would have been spawned ? 2) Would he win vs the hyds with his troops ? it would have been all about the two players micro.. 3) Would have any of the two players made a big mistake ..!?
So this again shows us it would have been all about what would have happened in the next minute.. or maybe minutes.. NO ONE can know this..
So theres only one answer.. make a last deciding game OR a bo3 for the decision..
i think everyone should agree with this.. the canadian testie lovers.. and the breakdown lovers..
gogo regame/s
Any post after this is inferior, this is pretty much perfect logic and completely dead on.
On June 06 2005 12:31 -PhiL- wrote: There wasnt a clear winner. Testie behaved bad manner, and after it, Break did. Still kinda strange, that Break says he didnt disc, so i dont know whats the truth now, after all.
I didnt watch the replay until now, but after all these reads i only come to one conclusion ( Trek and Ret, and many other think testie had advantage , eri , naz, twisted, and others think break had advantage), its as simple as this if u ask me :
Why do so good gamers not agree ? Because you cant really now who would have won this game, because it was all about a few questions : 1) Would Testie attack early enough, or after the lurks would have been spawned ? 2) Would he win vs the hyds with his troops ? it would have been all about the two players micro.. 3) Would have any of the two players made a big mistake ..!?
So this again shows us it would have been all about what would have happened in the next minute.. or maybe minutes.. NO ONE can know this..
So theres only one answer.. make a last deciding game OR a bo3 for the decision..
i think everyone should agree with this.. the canadian testie lovers.. and the breakdown lovers..
gogo regame/s
Any post after this is inferior, this is pretty much perfect logic and completely dead on.
you can call it completely dead on, but i think i'd call it completely useless. Since most people are in agreement that they should rematch, and both players have made it clear that they would no longer like a rematch...
Blatant rematch. Too many factors could have affected that match. For example, Breakdown could've gone and got drunk.
But seriously, Breakdown had that game won but I feel there was still a miniscule chance for error.
Who am I kidding, Breakdown had lurkers coming, map taken = thx. Testie=lose. Notice how testie decided to build zealots vs the wave of lurkers breakdown was no doubt about to hatch, Some how I don't think zlot/temp would break out of that choke when Z has massive advantage already.
On June 06 2005 15:59 IAmHaSu wrote: Blatant rematch. Too many factors could have affected that match. For example, Breakdown could've gone and got drunk.
But seriously, Breakdown had that game won but I feel there was still a miniscule chance for error.
Who am I kidding, Breakdown had lurkers coming, map taken = thx. Testie=lose. Notice how testie decided to build zealots vs the wave of lurkers breakdown was no doubt about to hatch, Some how I don't think zlot/temp would break out of that choke when Z has massive advantage already.
This entire thing sounds it could have been avoided if the organizers had just put their foot down and made a decision instead of pussyfooting.
Testie thought he had won and according to the rules it's their decision if a rematch is in order. Either they say "rematch" or they declare someone a winner. If someone refuses to rematch then they lose. It's not that difficult.
It's their call if this is inconclusive. If either refuse to rematch they forfeit gg shut the fuck up already. I guarantee you they will both suck it up and play if you just put your foot down
as for the ret,trek vs twisted,naz,eri on who had the upper hand i'll support ret,trek =P testie could've probably forced the hydras back a bit and have time (if he was quick) to get up cannons and secure another expansion while building a real massive army in time for his observers to come~~
geez this is a useless post, but at least i can also add that i'm taking naz' side on saying testie is a faggot!=P
On June 06 2005 16:35 Liquid`Daaman wrote: as for the ret,trek vs twisted,naz,eri on who had the upper hand i'll support ret,trek =P testie could've probably forced the hydras back a bit and have time (if he was quick) to get up cannons and secure another expansion while building a real massive army in time for his observers to come~~
geez this is a useless post, but at least i can also add that i'm taking naz' side on saying testie is a faggot!=P
On June 06 2005 16:45 pirate cod wrote: I think Ret, Trek and damaan should 3:3 Twisted, Naz, Eri to see who the winner of Testie vs Breakdown would be.
On June 06 2005 12:31 -PhiL- wrote: There wasnt a clear winner. Testie behaved bad manner, and after it, Break did. Still kinda strange, that Break says he didnt disc, so i dont know whats the truth now, after all.
I didnt watch the replay until now, but after all these reads i only come to one conclusion ( Trek and Ret, and many other think testie had advantage , eri , naz, twisted, and others think break had advantage), its as simple as this if u ask me :
Why do so good gamers not agree ? Because you cant really now who would have won this game, because it was all about a few questions : 1) Would Testie attack early enough, or after the lurks would have been spawned ? 2) Would he win vs the hyds with his troops ? it would have been all about the two players micro.. 3) Would have any of the two players made a big mistake ..!?
So this again shows us it would have been all about what would have happened in the next minute.. or maybe minutes.. NO ONE can know this..
So theres only one answer.. make a last deciding game OR a bo3 for the decision..
i think everyone should agree with this.. the canadian testie lovers.. and the breakdown lovers..
gogo regame/s
Any post after this is inferior, this is pretty much perfect logic and completely dead on.
you can call it completely dead on, but i think i'd call it completely useless. Since most people are in agreement that they should rematch, and both players have made it clear that they would no longer like a rematch...
What happens now? Isn't that where we're at?
er i didnt wanna do basic thinking for you. If one player refuses to regame, with both of them put in the same channel (now) i dont mean in the past (yes i know they both have refused regames) and they both refuse, than dethrone testie eliminate break and have 2 new guys fight for it. If one refuses, and the other doesnt, the one who didnt refuse wins. If they both accept, than revert back to thesis post.
That was implied by "regame" obviously u cant force them. And in BW when 1 refuses, he cant win, he can only lose, basic.
can someone clarify this for me plz, testie refuses to forfeit or he refuses to regame? because testie forfeiting the game because breakdown disc is utterly ridiculous, not to mention that testie had at least 50% chance of winning that game... from what i read from testie its breakdown that refuses to regame.... so someone clarify this for me plz?
I think in my opinion that breakdown had the game won . just my opinion tho but like u guys have been saying sooo hard to get out on that map with lurk contain an reinforcements on the way gg
On June 06 2005 18:12 Hydrolisko wrote: can someone clarify this for me plz, testie refuses to forfeit or he refuses to regame? because testie forfeiting the game because breakdown disc is utterly ridiculous, not to mention that testie had at least 50% chance of winning that game... from what i read from testie its breakdown that refuses to regame.... so someone clarify this for me plz?
it was that jerk testie who refused to regame first . After a while he asked breakdown to regame but breakdown refused . Maybe he was pissed off by testie
After watching the game no one really had it for sure anything could have happened. A re-game is in order. If neither will play then you simply dq both and get 2 new people.
On June 06 2005 12:31 -PhiL- wrote: There wasnt a clear winner. Testie behaved bad manner, and after it, Break did. Still kinda strange, that Break says he didnt disc, so i dont know whats the truth now, after all.
I didnt watch the replay until now, but after all these reads i only come to one conclusion ( Trek and Ret, and many other think testie had advantage , eri , naz, twisted, and others think break had advantage), its as simple as this if u ask me :
Why do so good gamers not agree ? Because you cant really now who would have won this game, because it was all about a few questions : 1) Would Testie attack early enough, or after the lurks would have been spawned ? 2) Would he win vs the hyds with his troops ? it would have been all about the two players micro.. 3) Would have any of the two players made a big mistake ..!?
So this again shows us it would have been all about what would have happened in the next minute.. or maybe minutes.. NO ONE can know this..
So theres only one answer.. make a last deciding game OR a bo3 for the decision..
i think everyone should agree with this.. the canadian testie lovers.. and the breakdown lovers..
gogo regame/s
Any post after this is inferior, this is pretty much perfect logic and completely dead on.
you can call it completely dead on, but i think i'd call it completely useless. Since most people are in agreement that they should rematch, and both players have made it clear that they would no longer like a rematch...
What happens now? Isn't that where we're at?
er i didnt wanna do basic thinking for you. If one player refuses to regame, with both of them put in the same channel (now) i dont mean in the past (yes i know they both have refused regames) and they both refuse, than dethrone testie eliminate break and have 2 new guys fight for it. If one refuses, and the other doesnt, the one who didnt refuse wins. If they both accept, than revert back to thesis post.
That was implied by "regame" obviously u cant force them. And in BW when 1 refuses, he cant win, he can only lose, basic.
We're just on different wave lengths then. The post you commented was 'perfect' seemed blatantly obvious to me. You said 'anything after was inferior'. I happened to think that since a regame is so obviously needed that it should be discussed what should happen if 1 or both players refuse, and therefore is much more needed and does not follow under 'inferior'.
But since we're entirely in agreement on everything other than the doing of that 'basic thinking' for me, im willing to drop it if u are.
On June 06 2005 09:25 iNCuBuS_ wrote: I have not yet seen the replay, but I posted an idea about redoing the game on the gosugamers forums. Most of them think its a good idea, although there is an obvious downside... I could remake the map (wouldnt take more than a few days if I do it a couple hours a day... and thats probably still more time than I'd need) so that everything is built where it was in the game, then they can play from there. The downside? They know what each other has and is building, even though Im sure both of them (being on the level they are) knew what to expect from the other.
Hrm too much hassle IMO because if you want the game to be 'exactly' the same you would have to click each individual mineral patch and reset the minerals in your map to what they were in the game.Not to mention every injured unit (the zeals were mostly in red etc) Testie should just re ffs.
On June 06 2005 09:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: testie could DEFINITELY rightfully claim a regame. even if his own chances of winning were ~10%, it was the deciding game and breakdown was the one who disconnected. and I believe testie's chances of winning were closer to 50% than 10%, although I'd surely give the current advantage to breakdown.
now, claiming a win when you don't have an obvious advantage is gay no matter who disconnected so in this case where testie definitely didn't have a clear advantage and arguably was at a disadvantage, the obvious solution to me would be regame
but then testie was gay and immediately wanted a win cause he "couldn't possibly lose", and then breakdown retaliated through being gay on his own and refusing to regame after testie came to his senses and wanted a regame anyway.
so unless something has happened since the last time I updated myself on this, they're both being kinda gay.
Not taking sides here or anything, but I believe it was like 1-2 am for breakdown... I wouldnt regame at that time either, especially since the match happeend much earlier than that.
On June 06 2005 09:25 iNCuBuS_ wrote: I have not yet seen the replay, but I posted an idea about redoing the game on the gosugamers forums. Most of them think its a good idea, although there is an obvious downside... I could remake the map (wouldnt take more than a few days if I do it a couple hours a day... and thats probably still more time than I'd need) so that everything is built where it was in the game, then they can play from there. The downside? They know what each other has and is building, even though Im sure both of them (being on the level they are) knew what to expect from the other.
Hrm too much hassle IMO because if you want the game to be 'exactly' the same you would have to click each individual mineral patch and reset the minerals in your map to what they were in the game.Not to mention every injured unit (the zeals were mostly in red etc) Testie should just re ffs.
But in my opinion breakdown was winning.
Its not that much work. It would take a few days at most. I did, after all, make Legacies Open RPG 1 and 2... and those took MONTHS
he is right his economy was much stronger, and breakdown was right contain would be very very very hard to break.... but the reason i say he was winning is because he had so many templars and breakdown had no spire.
by the time he got his observers and made an attempt to breakout of breakdowns contain he would have had around 15 storms....some range goons and good storm micro while dropping zealots above and very sure testie would have busted out with not much effort
BUT if testie fucked up his micro to a medium-level fuck up breakdown could have won...a low level fuck up in micro and im sure testie still would have win
all that being said testie is a queerbag and should have regamed anyways, he has no balls
On June 07 2005 06:46 Rekrul wrote: just watched replay:
testie had a 58.59% - 41.41% advantage.
he is right his economy was much stronger, and breakdown was right contain would be very very very hard to break.... but the reason i say he was winning is because he had so many templars and breakdown had no spire.
by the time he got his observers and made an attempt to breakout of breakdowns contain he would have had around 15 storms....some range goons and good storm micro while dropping zealots above and very sure testie would have busted out with not much effort
BUT if testie fucked up his micro to a medium-level fuck up breakdown could have won...a low level fuck up in micro and im sure testie still would have win
all that being said testie is a queerbag and should have regamed anyways, he has no balls
edit: phil did i scare you?
I hate getting scared.. ;P
But imo it was all about one question in the end : would have testie moved out early enough, before the lurkers would have been ready. So if the game would be ''regamed'' at exactly the ending of the replay and testie and breakdown watched it, for sure testie would have won, because then he would move out 100%. But in the game he doesnt know if its good for him to try another fast attack or to wait for much more support.. And im pretty sure, that if testie went on a fast attack he wins and if he waits only for a short time, he would have lost the game..
So i would say its mor like 50/50 than anything else..
I think it's quite pointless to discuss who was winning. We all know how a game can turn in the complete opposit direction, within few minutes or even seconds. This is irrelevant though. Neither does it matter if he disconnected on purpose, it's the equivalent of leaving the football field during a football game. If a player disconnects, the only sensible thing would be to award that person a loss. Its not exactly practical to have go through this "what if" scenario, each time a player disconnects.
The games are supposed to be played until a player concedes - why even play the game if it's all decided beforehand, or in this case midgame. I'm sure the other person would have played in a different way if he knew that his opponent would disconnect, thus it would be unfair to demand a regame of him.
Disconnecting shouldn't be a viable strategy. It's too much hassle finding out whether the disconnect was intentional or not.
On June 07 2005 09:39 NonY wrote: ah after i've thought about it more i prefer that neither of them win. i hope they both refuse and 2 fresh players are put in for the next KOTH
I suggest me vs randomc5player. Anyhow, it would be cool to use this to promote some lesser-known good gamer
rekrul your wrong. he fuckin cannot break out this small entrance its impossible.and his robo was 1% when he left the game, i could build spire just in time so what ?i contained him, kicked his eco advantage by raping his weak microed army. he would be contained in 30sec-1min and would have no way to break out. but i dont care about this game. i care about his behaviour which is unacceptable to me. i wont regame such a bm person.
On June 07 2005 11:03 [pG]BrEaKdOwN wrote: rekrul your wrong. he fuckin cannot break out this small entrance its impossible.and his robo was 1% when he left the game, i could build spire just in time so what ?i contained him, kicked his eco advantage by raping his weak microed army. he would be contained in 30sec-1min and would have no way to break out. but i dont care about this game. i care about his behaviour which is unacceptable to me. i wont regame such a bm person.
as a side note... the ppl has spoken! fans gave testie 74% vote that he is going to win (the vote was probably on the best of 7.. and not the new best of 3).... so one mother fucker is more popular than the other motherfucker
On June 07 2005 11:25 ManaBlue wrote: " # 47 [Canada] Nal_Testie @ 2005-06-07 20:09:59 I am going to crush this mother fucker. I will play. And i'm going to crush this mother fucker. --;"
So breakdown, are you going to forfeit?
Look: breakdown disced. Now it is clear that nobody was really at advantage. Therefore as that other guy said earlier, in those conditions, there should have been a re-game.
But Testie forfeited. He bitched about how he had the game won. He flamed Breakdown and refused to have a re-match.
Hence Breakdown isn't going to forfeit or anything because Testie has already forfeited. Breakdown could have agreed on a rematch when Testie changed his mind. It would have been "fairplay". But fairplay comes along with good manners. That quote of yours says it all.
testie means that he will play breakdown in the new BO3 series that the admins decided was the best solution, so if break doesnt play he forfeits, testie already say he would rape break so...
On June 07 2005 06:46 Rekrul wrote: just watched replay:
testie had a 58.59% - 41.41% advantage.
he is right his economy was much stronger, and breakdown was right contain would be very very very hard to break.... but the reason i say he was winning is because he had so many templars and breakdown had no spire.
by the time he got his observers and made an attempt to breakout of breakdowns contain he would have had around 15 storms....some range goons and good storm micro while dropping zealots above and very sure testie would have busted out with not much effort
BUT if testie fucked up his micro to a medium-level fuck up breakdown could have won...a low level fuck up in micro and im sure testie still would have win
all that being said testie is a queerbag and should have regamed anyways, he has no balls
On June 07 2005 11:25 ManaBlue wrote: " # 47 [Canada] Nal_Testie @ 2005-06-07 20:09:59 I am going to crush this mother fucker. I will play. And i'm going to crush this mother fucker. --;"
So breakdown, are you going to forfeit?
Look: breakdown disced. Now it is clear that nobody was really at advantage. Therefore as that other guy said earlier, in those conditions, there should have been a re-game.
But Testie forfeited. He bitched about how he had the game won. He flamed Breakdown and refused to have a re-match.
Hence Breakdown isn't going to forfeit or anything because Testie has already forfeited. Breakdown could have agreed on a rematch when Testie changed his mind. It would have been "fairplay". But fairplay comes along with good manners. That quote of yours says it all.
Testie didn't forfeit u idiot, according to Teoru (i won't bother checking it out, for obvious reasons) the rules on the site say that if a player discs and one of the players thinks he has a clear advantage he can ask the admins to give him the game. That's what he asked for, how on earth did this become such a big controversy... All the admins have to do is say: "Yes, Testie was winning" or "no, he wasn't, let's regame". Clear and simple, jesus!
On June 07 2005 11:25 ManaBlue wrote: " # 47 [Canada] Nal_Testie @ 2005-06-07 20:09:59 I am going to crush this mother fucker. I will play. And i'm going to crush this mother fucker. --;"
So breakdown, are you going to forfeit?
Look: breakdown disced. Now it is clear that nobody was really at advantage. Therefore as that other guy said earlier, in those conditions, there should have been a re-game.
But Testie forfeited. He bitched about how he had the game won. He flamed Breakdown and refused to have a re-match.
Hence Breakdown isn't going to forfeit or anything because Testie has already forfeited. Breakdown could have agreed on a rematch when Testie changed his mind. It would have been "fairplay". But fairplay comes along with good manners. That quote of yours says it all.
According to the KOTH rules a player can petition for default win when his opponent disconnects. Breakdown disced. Testie petitioned. They have now made a decision and the new series can be played.
Testie did not at any time forfeit. Get your head out of your ass and stop posting your opinions as fact.
I'm not a Testie fan, personally I think he is as big a homo as his hair makes him look. But he doesnt deserve to lose reguardless if Breakdown was winning or not. Breakdown dropped, and both are now throwing around the geeky excuse of "bm" as a reason not to play. Shutup and plays fagits. If you don't agree to play, have 2 other players play, maybe 2 who I would have respect for. If they already agreed to play by the time I posted this then glhf, w/e.
On June 06 2005 09:49 NonY wrote: the game had a lot of playing to be done. in my opinion the next minutes of the game would've happened as follows - testie kills the hydras outside of his base, and if his army could move fast as vultures, he could go win the game or do enough damage to make an obvious advantage. however since his army would move too slowly to do that, breakdown would make some sunkens and with lurker aspect be able to defend. then testie would have map control, breakdown would have 1 more expansion, and testie would have to expand, contain, and wait for observers (his robotics wasnt started) a big thing is that breakdown didnt even have evolution chambers put down which was gonna kill him in the late game he was getting himself into. i dont understand what he was going for.. upgrades after 3rd base, or keep expanding without upgrades? surely he didnt expect to break testie's choke. it didnt seem to me to be going anywhere unless his contain was unbreakable but his lurkers were coming too late
as a protoss player i'd feel relatively comfortable if the next few minutes went as i described (and those actions arent incredibly hard to do and apparently testie was planning on doing it) but the game had a bit of playing to do and i think it warrants a rematch if you dont punish breakdown for his disconnection. since there is a chance that breakdown did it purposely (which i have no reason to believe) then it becomes unfair to testie to have a regame.. but i still think a regame is the best solution
there is no way testie would've killed the hydras outside his base before breakdown got lurkers..just before breakdown disced testie lost most of his army and he was badly outnumbered afterwards..was something like 5-8~zeals+some temps and 4 gates producing while breakdown had about 2 groups of hydras iirc...
edit: my memory was a bit off :p apparently testie had 6 gates+2more building..and testie had 6zealots+5templars
lol man stop posting about things you dont know anything.
Testie could definetely break out of that "contain"
not for you matrix:
wtf about that lurkers? WHAT FUCKING LURKERS???? HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE ASPECT!!!
On June 07 2005 11:25 ManaBlue wrote: " # 47 [Canada] Nal_Testie @ 2005-06-07 20:09:59 I am going to crush this mother fucker. I will play. And i'm going to crush this mother fucker. --;"
So breakdown, are you going to forfeit?
Look: breakdown disced. Now it is clear that nobody was really at advantage. Therefore as that other guy said earlier, in those conditions, there should have been a re-game.
But Testie forfeited. He bitched about how he had the game won. He flamed Breakdown and refused to have a re-match.
Hence Breakdown isn't going to forfeit or anything because Testie has already forfeited. Breakdown could have agreed on a rematch when Testie changed his mind. It would have been "fairplay". But fairplay comes along with good manners. That quote of yours says it all.
According to the KOTH rules a player can petition for default win when his opponent disconnects. Breakdown disced. Testie petitioned. They have now made a decision and the new series can be played.
Testie did not at any time forfeit. Get your head out of your ass and stop posting your opinions as fact.
How can breakdown disc, when he and 3 other observer were in the channel right after the game, without leaving bnet ?
On June 06 2005 09:49 NonY wrote: the game had a lot of playing to be done. in my opinion the next minutes of the game would've happened as follows - testie kills the hydras outside of his base, and if his army could move fast as vultures, he could go win the game or do enough damage to make an obvious advantage. however since his army would move too slowly to do that, breakdown would make some sunkens and with lurker aspect be able to defend. then testie would have map control, breakdown would have 1 more expansion, and testie would have to expand, contain, and wait for observers (his robotics wasnt started) a big thing is that breakdown didnt even have evolution chambers put down which was gonna kill him in the late game he was getting himself into. i dont understand what he was going for.. upgrades after 3rd base, or keep expanding without upgrades? surely he didnt expect to break testie's choke. it didnt seem to me to be going anywhere unless his contain was unbreakable but his lurkers were coming too late
as a protoss player i'd feel relatively comfortable if the next few minutes went as i described (and those actions arent incredibly hard to do and apparently testie was planning on doing it) but the game had a bit of playing to do and i think it warrants a rematch if you dont punish breakdown for his disconnection. since there is a chance that breakdown did it purposely (which i have no reason to believe) then it becomes unfair to testie to have a regame.. but i still think a regame is the best solution
there is no way testie would've killed the hydras outside his base before breakdown got lurkers..just before breakdown disced testie lost most of his army and he was badly outnumbered afterwards..was something like 5-8~zeals+some temps and 4 gates producing while breakdown had about 2 groups of hydras iirc...
edit: my memory was a bit off :p apparently testie had 6 gates+2more building..and testie had 6zealots+5templars
lol man stop posting about things you dont know anything.
Testie could definetely break out of that "contain"
not for you matrix:
wtf about that lurkers? WHAT FUCKING LURKERS???? HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE ASPECT!!!
On June 07 2005 11:25 ManaBlue wrote: " # 47 [Canada] Nal_Testie @ 2005-06-07 20:09:59 I am going to crush this mother fucker. I will play. And i'm going to crush this mother fucker. --;"
So breakdown, are you going to forfeit?
Look: breakdown disced. Now it is clear that nobody was really at advantage. Therefore as that other guy said earlier, in those conditions, there should have been a re-game.
But Testie forfeited. He bitched about how he had the game won. He flamed Breakdown and refused to have a re-match.
Hence Breakdown isn't going to forfeit or anything because Testie has already forfeited. Breakdown could have agreed on a rematch when Testie changed his mind. It would have been "fairplay". But fairplay comes along with good manners. That quote of yours says it all.
According to the KOTH rules a player can petition for default win when his opponent disconnects. Breakdown disced. Testie petitioned. They have now made a decision and the new series can be played.
Testie did not at any time forfeit. Get your head out of your ass and stop posting your opinions as fact.
How can breakdown disc, when he and 3 other observer were in the channel right after the game, without leaving bnet ?
Archi, stop playing symantics. Breakdown left the game. Whether he dropped, or had a game error, or connection problem or WHATEVER, he fucking left the game. Testie didn't and therefore the technical error is the fault of Breakdown.
The point is, a whole bunch of shit happened, and at the end of the day Testie is willing to regame to correct the problem. If Breakdown decides to be a pussy and not play then he deserves to lose. Case closed. I'd say the same thing in favour of Breakdown if Testie was the one refusing and Breakdown was willing to play.
Do you honestly think that giving Breakdown the win in a game that HE fucked up technically is justified? You must be kidding.
On June 07 2005 11:25 ManaBlue wrote: " # 47 [Canada] Nal_Testie @ 2005-06-07 20:09:59 I am going to crush this mother fucker. I will play. And i'm going to crush this mother fucker. --;"
So breakdown, are you going to forfeit?
Look: breakdown disced. Now it is clear that nobody was really at advantage. Therefore as that other guy said earlier, in those conditions, there should have been a re-game.
But Testie forfeited. He bitched about how he had the game won. He flamed Breakdown and refused to have a re-match.
Hence Breakdown isn't going to forfeit or anything because Testie has already forfeited. Breakdown could have agreed on a rematch when Testie changed his mind. It would have been "fairplay". But fairplay comes along with good manners. That quote of yours says it all.
According to the KOTH rules a player can petition for default win when his opponent disconnects. Breakdown disced. Testie petitioned. They have now made a decision and the new series can be played.
Testie did not at any time forfeit. Get your head out of your ass and stop posting your opinions as fact.
How can breakdown disc, when he and 3 other observer were in the channel right after the game, without leaving bnet ?
Archi, stop playing symantics. Breakdown left the game. Whether he dropped, or had a game error, or connection problem or WHATEVER, he fucking left the game. Testie didn't and therefore the technical error is the fault of Breakdown.
The point is, a whole bunch of shit happened, and at the end of the day Testie is willing to regame to correct the problem. If Breakdown decides to be a pussy and not play then he deserves to lose. Case closed. I'd say the same thing in favour of Breakdown if Testie was the one refusing and Breakdown was willing to play.
Do you honestly think that giving Breakdown the win in a game that HE fucked up technically is justified? You must be kidding.
I agree that there has to be a regame. Breakdown thought the same after the game and told so. But Testie was the pussy , who didnt want to accept a regame. He acted bm and flamed.
On June 06 2005 09:49 NonY wrote: the game had a lot of playing to be done. in my opinion the next minutes of the game would've happened as follows - testie kills the hydras outside of his base, and if his army could move fast as vultures, he could go win the game or do enough damage to make an obvious advantage. however since his army would move too slowly to do that, breakdown would make some sunkens and with lurker aspect be able to defend. then testie would have map control, breakdown would have 1 more expansion, and testie would have to expand, contain, and wait for observers (his robotics wasnt started) a big thing is that breakdown didnt even have evolution chambers put down which was gonna kill him in the late game he was getting himself into. i dont understand what he was going for.. upgrades after 3rd base, or keep expanding without upgrades? surely he didnt expect to break testie's choke. it didnt seem to me to be going anywhere unless his contain was unbreakable but his lurkers were coming too late
as a protoss player i'd feel relatively comfortable if the next few minutes went as i described (and those actions arent incredibly hard to do and apparently testie was planning on doing it) but the game had a bit of playing to do and i think it warrants a rematch if you dont punish breakdown for his disconnection. since there is a chance that breakdown did it purposely (which i have no reason to believe) then it becomes unfair to testie to have a regame.. but i still think a regame is the best solution
there is no way testie would've killed the hydras outside his base before breakdown got lurkers..just before breakdown disced testie lost most of his army and he was badly outnumbered afterwards..was something like 5-8~zeals+some temps and 4 gates producing while breakdown had about 2 groups of hydras iirc...
edit: my memory was a bit off :p apparently testie had 6 gates+2more building..and testie had 6zealots+5templars
lol man stop posting about things you dont know anything.
Testie could definetely break out of that "contain"
not for you matrix:
wtf about that lurkers? WHAT FUCKING LURKERS???? HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE ASPECT!!!
didnt they ban this moron?
Dude,you are so pathetic. You ARE a newb I think I showed you when we played. Moron.
I think Testie had very good idea to regame with the exact same manner(same BO,strategy,timings).It would be fair for both players but since Breakdown is not willing to play he should lose.He disced Testie did not if Testie disced and did not want to play I would say exact same thing.
On June 08 2005 11:24 NeverEndingStory wrote: I think Testie had very good idea to regame with the exact same manner(same BO,strategy,timings).It would be fair for both players but since Breakdown is not willing to play he should lose.He disced Testie did not if Testie disced and did not want to play I would say exact same thing.
No that would be stupid. Best option is a BO3 on SAME MAP.
geez, stop quoting half a book. and the exact same game is not possible neverendingstory. even if you recreate the units, building placements etc, you can't recreate the half done upgrades, also it would spoil the unknown factor.
On June 08 2005 12:16 cYaN wrote: geez, stop quoting half a book. and the exact same game is not possible neverendingstory. even if you recreate the units, building placements etc, you can't recreate the half done upgrades, also it would spoil the unknown factor.
and the uknown factor is the most imporant thing in this game.. if testie stays in his base for additional units he loses the game , pretty sure and if testie starts another fast attack he wins the game pretty much..
so this idea is ridicolous ..
i think testie acted bm first, not accepting a regame and i know breakdown as very very good manner and dont u find it strange, that in what tournament ever, if there is a problem, testie's involved in it ? Testie vs ret .. testie vs break .. ect..
come one.. pure coincidence, for sure.. poor testie.. hes always were the trouble's , too..
bo3 .. plz.. hopefully break accepts it.. and i dont know why testie says shit like '' gogo bo3 ill own that motherfucker''.. wtf did break do, after all ?
and ManaBlue you are the biggest... ive ever met. Is there anything else in your life, than supporting testie on every single page ? I see u on pgt,wgt, EVERYWHERE defending testie.. lamer.. t_T
On June 06 2005 09:49 NonY wrote: the game had a lot of playing to be done. in my opinion the next minutes of the game would've happened as follows - testie kills the hydras outside of his base, and if his army could move fast as vultures, he could go win the game or do enough damage to make an obvious advantage. however since his army would move too slowly to do that, breakdown would make some sunkens and with lurker aspect be able to defend. then testie would have map control, breakdown would have 1 more expansion, and testie would have to expand, contain, and wait for observers (his robotics wasnt started) a big thing is that breakdown didnt even have evolution chambers put down which was gonna kill him in the late game he was getting himself into. i dont understand what he was going for.. upgrades after 3rd base, or keep expanding without upgrades? surely he didnt expect to break testie's choke. it didnt seem to me to be going anywhere unless his contain was unbreakable but his lurkers were coming too late
as a protoss player i'd feel relatively comfortable if the next few minutes went as i described (and those actions arent incredibly hard to do and apparently testie was planning on doing it) but the game had a bit of playing to do and i think it warrants a rematch if you dont punish breakdown for his disconnection. since there is a chance that breakdown did it purposely (which i have no reason to believe) then it becomes unfair to testie to have a regame.. but i still think a regame is the best solution
there is no way testie would've killed the hydras outside his base before breakdown got lurkers..just before breakdown disced testie lost most of his army and he was badly outnumbered afterwards..was something like 5-8~zeals+some temps and 4 gates producing while breakdown had about 2 groups of hydras iirc...
edit: my memory was a bit off :p apparently testie had 6 gates+2more building..and testie had 6zealots+5templars
lol man stop posting about things you dont know anything.
Testie could definetely break out of that "contain"
not for you matrix:
wtf about that lurkers? WHAT FUCKING LURKERS???? HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE ASPECT!!!
No im pretty sure hes right, if this guy is here to reduce the quality of tl.net conversation his stay will be short. And who the hell are you to say "mind your own business" in a public forum? Thats... probably the biggest irony i will come across today >_<
On June 08 2005 14:08 {88}iNcontroL wrote: No im pretty sure hes right, if this guy is here to reduce the quality of tl.net conversation his stay will be short. And who the hell are you to say "mind your own business" in a public forum? Thats... probably the biggest irony i will come across today >_<
better explanation " let another live and dont harass some1 with some Ban stuff"
On June 08 2005 12:16 cYaN wrote: geez, stop quoting half a book. and the exact same game is not possible neverendingstory. even if you recreate the units, building placements etc, you can't recreate the half done upgrades, also it would spoil the unknown factor.
and the uknown factor is the most imporant thing in this game.. if testie stays in his base for additional units he loses the game , pretty sure and if testie starts another fast attack he wins the game pretty much..
so this idea is ridicolous ..
i think testie acted bm first, not accepting a regame and i know breakdown as very very good manner and dont u find it strange, that in what tournament ever, if there is a problem, testie's involved in it ? Testie vs ret .. testie vs break .. ect..
come one.. pure coincidence, for sure.. poor testie.. hes always were the trouble's , too..
bo3 .. plz.. hopefully break accepts it.. and i dont know why testie says shit like '' gogo bo3 ill own that motherfucker''.. wtf did break do, after all ?
and ManaBlue you are the biggest... ive ever met. Is there anything else in your life, than supporting testie on every single page ? I see u on pgt,wgt, EVERYWHERE defending testie.. lamer.. t_T
I'm a "..."? I don't know exactly how to react to that other than to say that I defend Testie where he deserves defending, just like any other person that stirs debate. You didn't see me defending his actions in the TANL vs ret did you? No. In fact I was one of the most outspoken about how disappointed I was in his behaviour.
The point I'm getting at Phil, is that I refuse to be a bandwagon jumping pussy like many around here who blindly agree with every admin comment due to their fear of causing friction or "being banned"...or whatever...Most here at TLnet don't like Testie. I get it.
The people who run this site are very outspoken with their opinions as well and they have never stopped my from stating mine. That's why I love it here. You don't need to lick Rek's shlong everytime he says something for godsakes...he doesn't need an ego boost, he's just fine.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I'm an outspoken jerk. Testie is an entertaining jerk. I identify with his personality and find that people overreact to the majority of what he does. I'm not the only one. Zia has said things similar to this on a number of occasions.
Does that make me a Testie fanboy? I'm as outspoken in any other type of thread as I am in a Testie related one. Just because I don't cry like a bitch everytime he calls someone a noob doesn't make me "his supporter". I treat each incident individually, like with anyone/thing else.
So say what you want. I've been called far worse, trust me.
Also, to say you see me "defending him everywhere" is a great exageration. I've never posted at PGT before, maybe once and not about Nick, so I don't know where you got that. And on WGT only during the TLT tourny because I followed it. I posted a ton of shit about other players, games, things...did you notice that? And as far as here, you might notice me a lot more than other posters because I'm one of few that doesn't spurt "lol testie bm fag lolrofl" like a gas sniffing retard.
Oh, and for the record, I used the word "outspoken" 4 times in this post, though it seems much more redundant than that while read it...
On June 06 2005 09:49 NonY wrote: the game had a lot of playing to be done. in my opinion the next minutes of the game would've happened as follows - testie kills the hydras outside of his base, and if his army could move fast as vultures, he could go win the game or do enough damage to make an obvious advantage. however since his army would move too slowly to do that, breakdown would make some sunkens and with lurker aspect be able to defend. then testie would have map control, breakdown would have 1 more expansion, and testie would have to expand, contain, and wait for observers (his robotics wasnt started) a big thing is that breakdown didnt even have evolution chambers put down which was gonna kill him in the late game he was getting himself into. i dont understand what he was going for.. upgrades after 3rd base, or keep expanding without upgrades? surely he didnt expect to break testie's choke. it didnt seem to me to be going anywhere unless his contain was unbreakable but his lurkers were coming too late
as a protoss player i'd feel relatively comfortable if the next few minutes went as i described (and those actions arent incredibly hard to do and apparently testie was planning on doing it) but the game had a bit of playing to do and i think it warrants a rematch if you dont punish breakdown for his disconnection. since there is a chance that breakdown did it purposely (which i have no reason to believe) then it becomes unfair to testie to have a regame.. but i still think a regame is the best solution
there is no way testie would've killed the hydras outside his base before breakdown got lurkers..just before breakdown disced testie lost most of his army and he was badly outnumbered afterwards..was something like 5-8~zeals+some temps and 4 gates producing while breakdown had about 2 groups of hydras iirc...
edit: my memory was a bit off :p apparently testie had 6 gates+2more building..and testie had 6zealots+5templars
lol man stop posting about things you dont know anything.
Testie could definetely break out of that "contain"
not for you matrix:
wtf about that lurkers? WHAT FUCKING LURKERS???? HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE ASPECT!!!
On June 08 2005 14:08 {88}iNcontroL wrote: No im pretty sure hes right, if this guy is here to reduce the quality of tl.net conversation his stay will be short. And who the hell are you to say "mind your own business" in a public forum? Thats... probably the biggest irony i will come across today >_<
better explanation " let another live and dont harass some1 with some Ban stuff"
Why? Because you don't want the subject of re-banning users to come up since you were banned before?
On June 08 2005 14:08 {88}iNcontroL wrote: No im pretty sure hes right, if this guy is here to reduce the quality of tl.net conversation his stay will be short. And who the hell are you to say "mind your own business" in a public forum? Thats... probably the biggest irony i will come across today >_<
better explanation " let another live and dont harass some1 with some Ban stuff"
Why? Because you don't want the subject of re-banning users to come up since you were banned before?
EPT
quite pathetic, mayby they should re bo7 ? <lol> 
p:p
