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United States238 Posts
On October 23 2010 17:27 cocoa_sg wrote:
And my friend, this is where it gets COMPLICATED.
EULA has been evolving throughout the years. BW was an old game, and e-sports was pretty much non-existent. I remember the old days when BW players were free to use the Spawn function to replicate their BW games through LAN. Yes, that Spawn function was part of the game and thus implemented by Blizzard.
The EULA of old is nowhere near the same as the EULA of now, or mostly varied differently. So thus, it is hard to say for sure whether my or your example is right.
The license to use a product was a newer surplus to evolving laws between the past and the present. So again, it is like trying to hold a liquid bar when it only seeps through your fingers. Such issues only complicate the whole thing.
Then again, trying to apply laws to a something totally new (like e-sports) has always been an complicated issue.
I don't think any arguments or going "KESPA HAS THE LAW ON THEIR SIDE" or "BLIZZARD DOES!" will do much. It remains to be seen.
Although, that complication is why KeSPA is pushing for a new law in Korea which would grant KeSPA a full IP rights to any and all games (regardless of where it is made) if it is to be used for e-sports. 
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On October 23 2010 17:06 Selith wrote:
I own a piece of land. It lawfully belongs to me. I go on a vacation for a while. Then someone comes in and builds a non-profit building on the land that I own, and didn't give him or her permission to do so.
Lawfully, I do have every right to boot him or her out of the lawful land that I own. Whether it is a nice thing to do or not, is not so clear-cut.
There are actually laws about that vary from place to place. It's under adverse possession. Ownership of the property can be passed to the person who currently resides there depending on how many continuous years they lived on it, if the owner knew (or should have) and did anything about it, and if they were open about possessing it. This law only deals with land, but that's also why analogies are bad in this situation.
It's strange how you say that Kespa doesn't acknowledge Blizzard's IP rights. There's little point in paying a license fee if they don't at least "acknowledge" that Blizzard owns something. What other type of license would they be paying for if it's not some type of IP license to broadcast? What they don't acknowledge is how far Blizzard says their IP rights extend. That is not the same as not acknowledging them at all. I suppose it's the same either way for Blizzard, but it's up to the Korea counts to decide now.
That issue in 2007 was actually Kespa/IEG charging OGN and MBC for Proleague broadcasting, not charging spectators. They did at one time try to charge a fee at one of the finals, but that was way, way before 2007, and they didn't do it again because no one came.
EULAs are not legally binding depending on where the trial is done.
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On October 23 2010 17:31 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 17:27 cocoa_sg wrote:
And my friend, this is where it gets COMPLICATED.
EULA has been evolving throughout the years. BW was an old game, and e-sports was pretty much non-existent. I remember the old days when BW players were free to use the Spawn function to replicate their BW games through LAN. Yes, that Spawn function was part of the game and thus implemented by Blizzard.
The EULA of old is nowhere near the same as the EULA of now, or mostly varied differently. So thus, it is hard to say for sure whether my or your example is right.
The license to use a product was a newer surplus to evolving laws between the past and the present. So again, it is like trying to hold a liquid bar when it only seeps through your fingers. Such issues only complicate the whole thing. Then again, trying to apply laws to a something totally new (like e-sports) has always been an complicated issue. I don't think any arguments or going "KESPA HAS THE LAW ON THEIR SIDE" or "BLIZZARD DOES!" will do much. It remains to be seen. Although, that complication is why KeSPA is pushing for a new law in Korea which would grant KeSPA a full IP rights to any and all games (regardless of where it is made) if it is to be used for e-sports.
Isn't that a good thing? We are seeing the start of a new era, when there has never been a precedent to this before. E-sports is facing a battle to survive, and this is the defining moment of truth. It is all up to the Korean court now to determine the fate of everything related to E-sports. New laws will be crafted, and we can look back to this in the future as a reference when it comes to IP rights and such.
Now, I shall temporarily shift from a neutral position as I say this: I hope Blizzard gets some sense knocked into them. I will not directly say it but you know my stance. ^_^
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United States238 Posts
I stand corrected on some things.
Acknowledging IP rights will open the hellgate for KeSPA.
So they aren't going to.
Just getting the license to broadcast is enough for them.
KeSPA stated that is their position already with their GomTV negotiations. They are willing to pay for being able to broadcast, but they will not acknowledge IP rights. I mean, if they actually thought of IP rights, why would they even say that "Since SC is played by many in public, it is public property just like soccer. No one owns StarCraft."?
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Gotta love Blizzard.
When I think that I used to have kind of a good image of that firm.
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I'm surprised that so many people are blindly supporting kespa. KeSPA has done some shady and questionable things under their "time" and I don't see the moral issue here. Blizzard made both games, as most of you have mentioned, none of us are read up on Korean Law about IP rights, but I have a hard time seeing how they'd have vastly different views on IP than pretty much any other country out there.
Legally Blizzard SHOULD be fine. "Should" because again, I'm not very well ready in korean law. Also KeSPA has been douches for such a long time, none of you remember the shit they pulled during the GomTV SC/BW leagues? I'm all for Blizzard in this one, take it to court!
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Let's do this. Liquibet, poll or whatever go go go!
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On October 23 2010 17:59 meRz wrote:
I'm surprised that so many people are blindly supporting kespa. KeSPA has done some shady and questionable things under their "time" and I don't see the moral issue here. Blizzard made both games, as most of you have mentioned, none of us are read up on Korean Law about IP rights, but I have a hard time seeing how they'd have vastly different views on IP than pretty much any other country out there.
Legally Blizzard SHOULD be fine. "Should" because again, I'm not very well ready in korean law. Also KeSPA has been douches for such a long time, none of you remember the shit they pulled during the GomTV SC/BW leagues? I'm all for Blizzard in this one, take it to court!
Yeah, let's support the fatass corporation suying the non-profit organization so that they stop an 10 years activity so that the big fatass corporation can make more money on their new product regardless its (mediocre) quality.
Makes perfect sense.
I don't think Kespa is great. But they are the one who made esport, who made the success of BW (and in fact, in a way, of SC2), and they deserve huge credit for that.
If chess was invented today we would have to play royalties for holding a tournament. I hope one day people realize that the notion of intellectual property has been pusehd to an extent that it is completely fucked up.
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France2061 Posts
On October 23 2010 15:17 DwD wrote:
I thought Ongamenet had a deal with GomTV?
I have a feeling that Blizzard never intended the negotiations to go anywhere and now that PL has restarted they've abandoned their fake benevolent stance and are going all out to try to kill BW.
I hope that MBC/KeSPA win here, both for a practical reason -- I want to continue watching pro BW -- and on principle: I want less restrictive IP rights so that developers don't have total control over every aspect of their games, otherwise the growth of esports will be stifled.
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It's bullshit that Blizzard wants broadcast rights.
I hope, if anything, we get definitive laws concerning esports. So shit like this will never happen again.
And for the person saying game companies in the US owning all matches made with their game. How does that work with MLG and other US eports broadcasters.
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Atleast we got Mlg/IEM
lol
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Just wondering - is there a possibility for Kespa paying Blizzard contract fee and starting a SC2 league, or is that out of the option and the only thing Kespa is interested is BW?
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On October 23 2010 17:59 meRz wrote:
I'm surprised that so many people are blindly supporting kespa. KeSPA has done some shady and questionable things under their "time" and I don't see the moral issue here. Blizzard made both games, as most of you have mentioned, none of us are read up on Korean Law about IP rights, but I have a hard time seeing how they'd have vastly different views on IP than pretty much any other country out there.
Legally Blizzard SHOULD be fine. "Should" because again, I'm not very well ready in korean law. Also KeSPA has been douches for such a long time, none of you remember the shit they pulled during the GomTV SC/BW leagues? I'm all for Blizzard in this one, take it to court!
yeah because of some stupid rule or whatsoever i shouldnt support them IN THIS.
and u obvious know shit about the Kespa GomTV SC:BW stuff...
companies pulled players out because they are sponsored by MBC for example. and ofc they dont want their players to play on a different broadcasting station...
and 4 5 teams were left. so it wasnt "kespa" the single teams made the decision (which is kespa in someway. but if u say kespa pulled the teams out then EVERYTIME would be pulled out and they wouldnt be left with 4 or 5 teams).
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Seriously why try to kill SC:BW? Does Blizzard have so little faith that Starcraft 2 would not have a huge fanbase? Look at the amount of tournaments/cups out there right now. Its just too many that I don't even bother looking at them anymore. Its already a testament that Starcraft 2 would have an ever-increasing fanbase at least until the last expansion is released.
Blizzard is just trying to be greedy here and trying to get consumers who would sooner or later switch over to Starcraft 2. Or maybe it would not happen, as MBC / OGN has been a huge part of most korean youngsters. Even then, what would one country matter? Sure, SK is the epitome of progaming, but trying to sue them so that people would stop watching their leagues is just plain stupid. So Blizzard has no qualms in destroying at least the lives of all the progamers out there just because of a petty issue of IP rights and also to promote their next big hit Starcraft 2? Then what, they are going to remove everyone from playing diablo 2 so that they can force them to play diablo 3? And then when starcraft 3 comes out(if there is one) they are going to do the same thing and stop everyone from playing starcraft 2?Spare me from all this nonsense.
Just because your games are the most popular out there doesn't mean you have the rights to dictate everything in the e-sports industry and the game industry. Have a reality check, ACTIVISION blizzard
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On October 23 2010 09:45 GTR wrote:
It's on like donkey kong.
You stole my line! 
But yeah... Blizz may win or may not. Everyone start mailing donations to MBC NOW! XD
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On October 23 2010 18:26 Odoakar wrote:
Just wondering - is there a possibility for Kespa paying Blizzard contract fee and starting a SC2 league, or is that out of the option and the only thing Kespa is interested is BW?
From their official twitter:
troken11 n o @
@official_KeSPA hello, do you have any plans regarding Starcraft 2 if the negotiations with gretech are succesful?
KeSPA
@troken11 We have no specific plan yet. However, if the negotiations are successful, all progame teams would be willingly to consider. ^^
Kespa was very actively involved in Warcraft 3 Korean e-sports and OGN and MBC hosted a bunch of War 3 tournaments before the scandal/lack of interest, so it's not like they're adverse to new games.
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This is the end
My only friend, the end
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Meh.
So long since i heard good news from the BW-scene.
To bad the scene gonna end in such manner.
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If Blizzard wins this, it will create a precedent for other game-developpers. Everyone and their mom is going to meddle in how their game is supposed to be broadcast and/or played because of the IP-rights...
Also, I want to keep watching pro BW
Blizzard don't do this
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Surely the best option.. is for a Worldwide E-sports group to be created.. then commissioning a good strong developer to make a specific genre type for them. That the E-sports group would then own and could adapt, modify and abuse as they see fit for e-sports. I heard rumours that MLG were once going to do this for it's own FPS so it didn't have to rely on Halo and bungie's sucky patching and mapping. Surely in this recession dominated period, someone with kespa's financial clout (from its sponsers) could hire a decent quality team to build a game from scratch for their own use to their own specifications.
The we could cut out all the developer/publisher abuse that E-sports has been suffering. Or maybe we could convince a good development team to release a game and then open source it to the community providing we all agree to buy millions of copies 
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EPT
