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Flash vs Pure in graphs - Page 2

Forum Index > BW General
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flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
May 10 2010 13:36 GMT
#21
heyoka you're pretty damn cute.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
May 10 2010 15:00 GMT
#22
On May 10 2010 22:21 sob3k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2010 21:50 StylishVODs wrote:
On May 10 2010 20:43 JWD wrote:
I have to say the one thing that I didn't really see is Flash outmacroing Pure. Seems their supplies grew at the same rate for the most part…maybe he pulled a little ahead in the midgame sometimes, but only marginally.


You can quite clearly see that Pure pulled ahead macrowise in the beginning of each game, because he 12nexed, and then flash's macrocurve makes a comeback due to his fast third as a response to the 12nex.

Pure 12-nexed in everygame or else the macro would have differed more I think.


Protoss supply =/= Terran supply, its a little more complex than that


Ye I think i know as much...
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
pyr0ma5ta
Profile Joined May 2010
United States458 Posts
May 10 2010 15:13 GMT
#23
Interesting, especially game 2. Sadly, the average graph is totally uninformative.
"I made you a zergling, but I eated it." - Defiler
yupyup
Profile Joined June 2009
Philippines36 Posts
May 10 2010 16:20 GMT
#24
the graphs are nice. i didnt actually think that supply graphs in tvp would look something like these
ohh the fanboyism.
JDforever
Profile Joined December 2009
China69 Posts
May 10 2010 20:31 GMT
#25
What is the supply counting box? A kind of sampling or data gathering process?
Where can I find the thread?
I love Frank
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 20:41:10
May 10 2010 20:34 GMT
#26
Would be interesting to see where the -20 supply line is. As a general rule of thumb, Psi-20=Supply means the game is even. If Psi-20>Supply then P is winning and Psi-20< Supply then Terran is winning.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Polar_Nada
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States1548 Posts
May 10 2010 20:38 GMT
#27
wow those graphs really say something about those games hahah.
[ReD]NaDa and fnaticMSI.SEn fighting~! ::POlar @ UC Irvine::
rushz0rz
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
Canada5300 Posts
May 10 2010 20:44 GMT
#28
On May 10 2010 19:17 heyoka wrote:
This is the game that gave me an idea. After I saw flash move out and decimate Pure's army in about 5 seconds, I started laughing at how silly a graph would look that depicted their respective food levels.

Then comes the best part, you can actually see when Flash moves out and their armies engage. At the 14 minute mark flash has 168 food and Pure has 159. Exactly a minute later, as Flash's push has extended towards the top and is taking out bases, Pure is down to 90 while Flash is at 145. Its over by now and the graph shows Pure making his last ditch effort and losing everything.


I raged.
IntoTheRainBOw fan~
Saturnize
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 20:46:26
May 10 2010 20:45 GMT
#29
nvm
"Time to put the mustard on the hotdog. -_-"
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
May 10 2010 21:02 GMT
#30
some very nice work, though game one's extermination of pure's shit is because he's hitting a terran ball with more supply than him, i think

its really interesting work, though. the dynamics would be so much different for other matchups, and it would be interesting to see TvZ or maybe ZvP as well.
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
jimminy_kriket
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada5545 Posts
May 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#31
Those graphs are sickening. Flash knows how to defend to well, I cant wait till someone cracks him. I was hoping it would be pure though
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 23:03:39
May 10 2010 22:54 GMT
#32
On May 11 2010 05:34 Plexa wrote:
Would be interesting to see where the -20 supply line is. As a general rule of thumb, Psi-20=Supply means the game is even. If Psi-20>Supply then P is winning and Psi-20< Supply then Terran is winning.


This is basically why I was saying I think Flash was "out-macroing". In many situations, especially during the buildup parts of the game (sub~12 minutes when T has X bases and P has X+1 bases and its mostly just making stuff), protoss will naturally gain a slight advantage in raw count. Pure kind of does it, but it gets negated super fast just before the first major battles start happening. Flash keeping it that even seems like its an indicator of skill. There are a ton of other factors its looking at though, like what is being attacked, and which units are trading, so its not a very clean comparison.

This was pretty easy to do while watching the games, so if I catch EffOrt-Kal I'll probably do the same thing. Zerg vs T/P seems like it would be more dynamic in what food levels look like but hell if I know.

On May 11 2010 05:31 JDforever wrote:
What is the supply counting box? A kind of sampling or data gathering process?
Where can I find the thread?


The counting box is that thing OSL has that shows current mineral/gas/supply count (like GOM or TSL had, in the lower right corner). I wrote down the numbers at regular time intervals to make the pictures. One thing I also noticed during the games is that Flash rarely had above 400 or 500 minerals at any point, while pure was frequently nearing 800 or 900. I kind of wonder if you wrote that down as well if something meaningful could be measured.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
May 10 2010 23:02 GMT
#33
Its funny how flash cought up in suply each game even though pure opened with 12 nexus every game.
Flash greedy 3rd perhaps
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 10 2010 23:05 GMT
#34
On May 11 2010 07:54 heyoka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2010 05:34 Plexa wrote:
Would be interesting to see where the -20 supply line is. As a general rule of thumb, Psi-20=Supply means the game is even. If Psi-20>Supply then P is winning and Psi-20< Supply then Terran is winning.


This is basically why I was saying I think Flash was "out-macroing". In many situations, especially during the buildup parts of the game (sub~12 minutes when T has X bases and P has X+1 bases and its mostly just making stuff), protoss will naturally gain a slight advantage in raw count. Pure kind of does it, but it gets negated super fast just before the first major battles start happening. Flash keeping it that even seems like its an indicator of skill. There are a ton of other factors its looking at though, like what is being attacked, and which units are trading, so its not a very clean comparison.

This was pretty easy to do while watching the games, so if I catch EffOrt-Kal I'll probably do the same thing. Zerg vs T/P seems like it would be more dynamic in what food levels look like but hell if I know.
Still, is it possible you could do one of the graphs with the Pure Psi - 20 line added?
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-10 23:30:35
May 10 2010 23:09 GMT
#35
He got pretty fast thirds in the games from what I remember, so possibly. He definitely had his third running before Pure did on Match Point. Its interesting that in the games Pure's growth is a straight line or tapers off towards mid game, whereas Flash's is the opposite in that it starts growing faster. I don't know if its a racial thing (Pure would have been adding tech for arbs about then) or because Flash is better at making units or because of engagements or if thats just how a PvT game normally unfolds. Maybe if we get a Flash vs Kal finals I could do the same thing and compare.

Plexa lemme see, should be easy enough

EDIT YO HERE THEY ARE

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]



Game 2 is the most interesting one. The match average thing is cool too.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
peidongyang
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada2084 Posts
May 10 2010 23:37 GMT
#36
To be fair though pure is playing against FLASH. And trust me, even if you 12 nex, you're not gonna outmacro flash!
the throws never bothered me anyway
maneatingshoe
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada484 Posts
May 11 2010 00:33 GMT
#37
I would like to see this done to a large sample size of TvP games with a graph for when terran wins and for when protoss wins, and I suppose both of them combined. I just like graphs.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 11 2010 00:41 GMT
#38
On May 11 2010 08:09 heyoka wrote:
He got pretty fast thirds in the games from what I remember, so possibly. He definitely had his third running before Pure did on Match Point. Its interesting that in the games Pure's growth is a straight line or tapers off towards mid game, whereas Flash's is the opposite in that it starts growing faster. I don't know if its a racial thing (Pure would have been adding tech for arbs about then) or because Flash is better at making units or because of engagements or if thats just how a PvT game normally unfolds. Maybe if we get a Flash vs Kal finals I could do the same thing and compare.

Plexa lemme see, should be easy enough

EDIT YO HERE THEY ARE

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]



Game 2 is the most interesting one. The match average thing is cool too.

Those graphs say to me, Flash was basically never behind once in the series
Insaneeeee
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Wings
Profile Joined January 2010
United States999 Posts
May 11 2010 00:42 GMT
#39
On May 11 2010 08:09 heyoka wrote:
He got pretty fast thirds in the games from what I remember, so possibly. He definitely had his third running before Pure did on Match Point. Its interesting that in the games Pure's growth is a straight line or tapers off towards mid game, whereas Flash's is the opposite in that it starts growing faster. I don't know if its a racial thing (Pure would have been adding tech for arbs about then) or because Flash is better at making units or because of engagements or if thats just how a PvT game normally unfolds. Maybe if we get a Flash vs Kal finals I could do the same thing and compare.

Plexa lemme see, should be easy enough

EDIT YO HERE THEY ARE

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]



Game 2 is the most interesting one. The match average thing is cool too.

I love those psi-20 graphs, though I'm not sure whether 20 is the magic number...

Game 2 is pretty LOL to me. How the heck did Flash's unit count drop so fast, and then suddenly go up so freaking quickly while Pure's just went slowly downhill?? Makes no sense to me... maybe that was during the carrier transition? Flash decided to suddenly pump gols?
The probability of Kim Carrier getting all those predictions wrong is similar to the probability Flash loses a TvT. Kim Carrier MUST BE a genius. His only big mistake... STORK.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
May 11 2010 00:47 GMT
#40
On May 11 2010 09:41 Plexa wrote:
Those graphs say to me, Flash was basically never behind once in the series
Insaneeeee


That is a reasonable way to interpret them. Thats mostly what I get out of it too.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
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