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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
Fubuki 1.1Changes:- Changed in-base expansion's mineral/gas layout for ZvT/PvZ balance - Added space for turrets at natural for ZvT balance + Show Spoiler [1.0] +
Description:
- 4 player rotational symmetry heavy-macro map
- Has an additional expo in the main
- Expo can only be taken by Zerg early game due to hatchery creep (hatchery must be killed for Toss and Terran to expand)
- Expo's gas (not nat's) must have the Psi Disruptor destroyed to mine the gas for all three races
Resource distribution:
Main: 10M1G
Nat: 8M1G
Expo: 8M1G
Island expo: 7M1G (1000/3000)
Download links:
1.0 - http://www.mediafire.com/?mgwuejzjzjv
1.1 - http://www.mediafire.com/?zmmdnidmog2
Hoping for lots and lots of comments, so no matter what comment you may have, like how shitty this map is or whether this should be the next OSL map, please post it! It gives me better ideas for my future maps :p
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it looks fun, i'll try it out with friends tonight. but why are there hatcheries in the mineral only expos behind the bases? it doesn't seem fair that zerg gets a free protected expo while terran and toss have to kill a neutral hatchery for a mineral only.
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Why hatcheries instead of creep colonies? I imagine toss could MC one of those larvae late game 
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
they are not mineral-only expos.
They are gas expos, but the geysers are covered by a neutral Psi Disruptor. You have to destroy the neutral Psi Disruptor to mine from the geyser (which can't be seen in the picture). This applies to all three races. Also, for a Terran and Protoss to expand there you have to kill the neutral Hatchery to remove the Zerg creep. But for a Zerg, you can just build a hatchery there straightaway, similar to maps like Colosseum and Baekmagoji.
The reason behind this is to prevent super fast Triple Nexus or Triple CC, as well as to prevent super fast 3-gas muta rape on the map.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On November 15 2009 02:32 Aphelion wrote:Why hatcheries instead of creep colonies? I imagine toss could MC one of those larvae late game
Hatcheries have more HP. I initially used Hives, but I realised they had way too much HP.
Also, no larvae spawns there :p
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On November 15 2009 02:34 konadora wrote:they are not mineral-only expos. They are gas expos, but the geysers are covered by a neutral Psi Disruptor. You have to destroy the neutral Psi Disruptor to mine from the geyser (which can't be seen in the picture). This applies to all three races. Also, for a Terran and Protoss to expand there you have to kill the neutral Hatchery to remove the Zerg creep. But for a Zerg, you can just build a hatchery there straightaway, similar to maps like Colosseum and Baekmagoji. The reason behind this is to prevent super fast Triple Nexus or Triple CC, as well as to prevent super fast 3-gas muta rape on the map.
I don't think that's going to make a big difference to a speedy 3 nex/CC build, or a fast 3 gas build for a zerg...although I don't know how long it takes to kill the psi disruptor. But killing a hatch to lay a CC/nexus is not difficult, you can do it quite quickly if you just leave a couple scvs on it a few minutes after your 2nd expo, or just send 1-2 rines early after you've got your nat up. The time it takes the creep to go away is the main issue and the hatch is not that close to where you'd put the CC/nex anyways so the only the outer fringe would need to recede. The gas is irrelevant to a T in a TvP, so even if it does take a long time to kill the psi disruptor he won't care. Same for PvT.
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On November 15 2009 02:32 Aphelion wrote:Why hatcheries instead of creep colonies? I imagine toss could MC one of those larvae late game
iirc, larvae can't be MC'd.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
isit just me or are distances between bases pretty close o_O
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On November 15 2009 02:43 jhNz wrote:i like the layout, looks cool but i have to say that this map looks heavily zerg-favored to me. a lot of gas for zerg and an open middle... looks perfect for one of those 3-base strategies. and: you can harrass both, the natural and the inner expo with mutas 'at once'. how many hitpoints have those psi-thingies on the gases? i mean it shouldn't be too hard to kill 'em early as zerg. so you can expand to the protected gas expo and after that to the natural. then you already have two gas and the third is coming as soon as you kill the psi disruptor. maybe you should remove the gas from the protected expo next to the mains... dunno. maybe my speculation is wrong. have to play it to make a final statement  i like the architecture though
hatchery has 1250hp, psi disruptor has 2000hp.
On November 15 2009 02:44 Ganfei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 02:34 konadora wrote:they are not mineral-only expos. They are gas expos, but the geysers are covered by a neutral Psi Disruptor. You have to destroy the neutral Psi Disruptor to mine from the geyser (which can't be seen in the picture). This applies to all three races. Also, for a Terran and Protoss to expand there you have to kill the neutral Hatchery to remove the Zerg creep. But for a Zerg, you can just build a hatchery there straightaway, similar to maps like Colosseum and Baekmagoji. The reason behind this is to prevent super fast Triple Nexus or Triple CC, as well as to prevent super fast 3-gas muta rape on the map. I don't think that's going to make a big difference to a speedy 3 nex/CC build, or a fast 3 gas build for a zerg...although I don't know how long it takes to kill the psi disruptor. But killing a hatch to lay a CC/nexus is not difficult, you can do it quite quickly if you just leave a couple scvs on it a few minutes after your 2nd expo, or just send 1-2 rines early after you've got your nat up. The time it takes the creep to go away is the main issue and the hatch is not that close to where you'd put the CC/nex anyways so the only the outer fringe would need to recede. The gas is irrelevant to a T in a TvP, so even if it does take a long time to kill the psi disruptor he won't care. Same for PvT.
Maybe I should change the hatchery into a hive?
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I donno, maybe you can just leave it like it is and it can be a kind of delayed God's Garden-style map. I can see how a terran could take 4 bases (the island near his nat is easy to take, 1 dropship, short fly distance) and just be a douchebag about it, but the push distance doesnt look THAT close for a TvP. A P would definitely need to take another main/nat/3rd vs a terran who just sat around and took that island for 4 bases, but this map looks like there are a lot of places you could recall and it'd be fairly difficult to defend against if the T waited too long vs arbs.
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Anyone want to try this out?
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Why not just call it "Blizzard" instead? -____-
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the name is bad since its not an ice tile set lol.
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On November 15 2009 02:32 Aphelion wrote:Why hatcheries instead of creep colonies? I imagine toss could MC one of those larvae late game
Can't MC larva, even if you could.. You need a hatchery to have 0/1 population.
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you should leave a neutral drone at each hatchery ^^
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this map really encourage macro game
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I kinda like how this map looks. Zerg has access to a really easy 3rd gas but their natural is so far away from the main that it would be incredibly hard to stop any sort of aggressive bunker rush, meaning that most zergs would probably opt to 9/12 pool in order to be able to take their natural safely, slowing them down quite a bit. Distance-wise there are plenty of good spots for zerg to get their 4th gas, but the flat terran and open middle means that they have to pour a little extra ressources into defending it properly. TvZ looks like it will be quite balanced.
In PvT I could see protoss running into problems. Terrans have access to three relatively easy bases and then an island expansion that is very cramped and therefore easy to secure. The flatness of the map and the distance to the main of the nat does make 10/15 gate goon rushes very potent and the open middle is quite nice for big protoss armies to get a nice sorround later on in the game. If terran ever gets in the situation where he needs to expand beyond his first four bases he could be a world of hurt - He'd end up spread thin over the middle and recalls would be almost impossible to stop due to the big mains.
PvZ it looks very zerg-friendly, however a corsair/reaver strategy might actually be ridiculously strong due to the 3 "free" bases and the wealth of island expansions (2 bordering every main). Think Arcadia, but instead of a free mineral only you get a gas expansion and instead of one open island expansion next to you, you have two enclosed ones that are a lot easier to secure.
Overall I really like how the map should play out, the problems players a faced with and how it looks, vey good job!
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Cool map :3
definitely going to give it a try
on a side note,
But where did you get the name?
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mutas are gonna rape this map hard
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the architecture reminds me a lot of azalea and arcadia but with a little twist.
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I like how it looks, the hatchery creep is definitely a cool feature, and that 0 min patch on the islands makes it impossible for terrans just to plop a CC down there for an easy 4th. It will be interesting to find the balance of this, since its true that terran can sit off 3 base and just macro, those two expansions are scarily open to harass. I would guess its a balanced map as long as the zerg plays it right, getting drop a bit early and taking the island 4th and 5th, and harrassing the f**k out of those two bases.
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Well. Turtling is reallllllllly easy. Honestly, this is worse than colloseum in terms of how awesome a 200/200 3/3 push is. FOUR ****ING GAS to take and easily defended with 1 choke, and the island can just be turreted up.
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Seems a lot ez for muta harass.
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looking at it a second time, i don't think zerg have an advantage... at least not pvz. forge FE at main choke and 2 free gas right away, then its like andromeda until you feel like killing the neutral for the 3rd gas which isn't a delay since you'll either need cannons to defend that xpo anyway (and can kill it with cannons) or just make 1 zealot which you should have by the time you are putting up your 3rd.
still, it looks fun ;D
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The first thing that jumped out at me about this map is that you are at a HUGE disadvantage if you spawn immediately counter-clockwise to your opponent
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On November 15 2009 08:22 Elite00fm wrote:
The first thing that jumped out at me about this map is that you are at a HUGE disadvantage if you spawn immediately counter-clockwise to your opponent
why? tanks can't target your nat
On November 15 2009 04:38 JSH wrote:
Cool map :3
definitely going to give it a try
on a side note,
But where did you get the name?
i was playing disgaea and my yukimaru learnt a new skill called midare fubuki
go figure :p
On November 15 2009 07:09 Lovin wrote:
No highground or ramps?
I initially wanted the center of the map to be a high ground, but later on it looked too ugly and was rather hard to implement.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
btw anyone want to help me test this map?
I'm on @ Caramell on iccup
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Looks good, I'll be testing this one out tonight and let you know my initial reactions...not that they really mean anything lol
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On November 15 2009 10:51 Thegilaboy wrote:
Looks good, I'll be testing this one out tonight and let you know my initial reactions...not that they really mean anything lol
any feedback is appreciated ^_^
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Not sure if it would be balanced but it looks pretty cool.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
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Played a TvP on this yesterday with a buddy of mine. I like the map, but this is probably because I'm T and its just so easy to turtle up on the 3 bases given to you and steamroll anything and everything.
I saved the replay and can throw it up if wanted, even though we're just a couple of D players.
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On November 15 2009 02:44 Ganfei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 02:34 konadora wrote:they are not mineral-only expos. They are gas expos, but the geysers are covered by a neutral Psi Disruptor. You have to destroy the neutral Psi Disruptor to mine from the geyser (which can't be seen in the picture). This applies to all three races. Also, for a Terran and Protoss to expand there you have to kill the neutral Hatchery to remove the Zerg creep. But for a Zerg, you can just build a hatchery there straightaway, similar to maps like Colosseum and Baekmagoji. The reason behind this is to prevent super fast Triple Nexus or Triple CC, as well as to prevent super fast 3-gas muta rape on the map. I don't think that's going to make a big difference to a speedy 3 nex/CC build, or a fast 3 gas build for a zerg...although I don't know how long it takes to kill the psi disruptor. But killing a hatch to lay a CC/nexus is not difficult, you can do it quite quickly if you just leave a couple scvs on it a few minutes after your 2nd expo, or just send 1-2 rines early after you've got your nat up. The time it takes the creep to go away is the main issue and the hatch is not that close to where you'd put the CC/nex anyways so the only the outer fringe would need to recede. The gas is irrelevant to a T in a TvP, so even if it does take a long time to kill the psi disruptor he won't care. Same for PvT.
you get way more tanks and vessels with 3gas... and templars/arbiters as well. gas is not irrelevant.
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On November 15 2009 05:02 Dark_Luster wrote:
mutas are gonna rape this map hard
That's what it looks like to me as well. Mutas can switch from the nat to the third pretty much instantly. It doesn't look like there is a lot of room to build turrets but it's hard to tell without playing on it I guess.
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Looks like spawning counter-clockwise from your opponent will easify drops in your main and stuff, and mutas/wraiths look very powerful. Anyone want to play a few games on this map?
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
bump
a few suggested changes i may have after playing some games:
- add turret space at nat
- change positioning of 2nd gas expo to prevent muta rape
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kona, love this. Two changes look like a good idea, and I love that there are four island expos in addition to the three gases you can defend at just one choke - I can envision some simply outstanding sair/reaver games on this map. Possibly too outstanding? Toss can get 5 gases and none of them will really be threatened before dark swarm comes out if he nails them down tight and keeps up the speed shuttle aggression. All I know is that as a crappy protoss, I want to play some zergs on this map.
It looks like it would be pretty awesome for terran, too, if you add the muta defense changes. That much gas income means you can just be bursting at the seams with tanks, dropships, and goliaths, which is an awesome unit combination for any matchup - and mech definitely looks like the way to go here in TvZ, simply because the map's so wide open. If you go medic/marine on that much gas, you'd better have a hell of a vessel cloud...because zerg has that much gas too.
Speaking of zerg, am I wrong or is this a wet dream? One sunken line to defend three gas, which you can have reasonably quickly, and then two more gases that can be held with maybe six scourge apiece and a sunken or two for emergencies. Of course, in ZvP that goes up to about SIXTY scourge against sair/reaver, and if terran starts escorting his dropships with wraiths (and why not, with that much gas) the same thing might happen in ZvT. At least on the surface, all three races will get to macro pretty damn safely here - which is awesome for those of us who like seeing epic, epic lategame battles, which I think is all of us. Sair/reaver into reaver/goon/templar/carrier PvZ please.
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this looks like a zvt disaster
zerg can sunk up like a bitch, get 3 gas fo free, and Mutas are freaking ridiculous here
also do you take the natural that doesnt have the hatchery first i wonder?
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
Made the changes, updated to 1.1
Comments plz!!
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I haven't played on it, so I don't know for sure, but how much of an effect does the doodads in the middle have on movement of ground units? Is it significant? If it is, it would really help out T (funneling and slowing down enemy units while going for a mech build).
Also - there seems to be a lot of space to build in the middle, and a short distance from nat to nat. That would be really, really easy to slow-push as a T. It would be very difficult to beat it as Z.
Speedzealots would have a short distance to travel to get to Zerg's nat. Very short. That is a huge disadvantage, considering how powerful the 4-gate-2-archon timing attack is.
It's also a disadvantage for an early ling rush in ZvP, however, I dunno how to fix that one..... And I don't think it will be too bad, main-to-nat is pretty large.
I think upping the hatchery to a hive would be smart. No way to do a fast double-expand then as anyone but Z. And Z probably needs that on this map.
As a suggestion to make unbuildable ground in the middle of the map - I have an interesting proposition. This is just an idea I'm throwing out there. Take it as nothing more than that.
If you place a creep colony, then a Khaydarin Crystal ontop, then make another creep colony ontop of that, you get a section of creep that is difficult, if not impossible to destroy. It cannot be built on as T or P, but you can build on it as Z.
I've always tried to think of ways to include that in a map, and this is the only map that I've seen a decent reason for it, outside of island maps. It would allow Z to build some sunken colonies as a delay measure, but if you placed them well, as well as unbuildable terrain nearby, they could not be used for containment.
Overall, I like this map. I'll definitely try it out when I get a chance to.
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Looks a lot better to me after the changes. I want to play on it ^^
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I like the changes, it takes away the huge muta advantage.
Is the middle buildable?
I don't agree that the short distance between the main and the enemies nat is too bad since its not actually ridiculously short and early pressure is something you have to deal with regardless. IMPERVIOUS's suggestion about a crystal on a creep colony is interesting, but I don't know how that will be hugely useful to have indestructible creep colony.
Drops and recalls will be key to this map. Short air distance and large main means players will have to keep on their toes, which I think is good, since it gives a viable method to break a really hardcore turtling player.
If I had to suggest changes, I would say that perhaps some high ground in the middle would encourage players to move out on the map and make for more dynamic games, but this bungalow style map is cool too.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
Yes mid is buildable. I am considering making them unbuildable for Terran mech imbalance issue.
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Name = Fuko Ibuki? Fubuki? If so, nice reference.
Terran can still roll both Protoss and Zerg with four freakin GAS bases. I would fix this by making the natural (The one at the front) a mineral only and reducing the amount of gas in the backdoor expo's gas.
Map looks pretty boring. Might want to spice things up a bit. Try something with the middle or making tankspots in places. Just stuff to make it more interesting to play and not a boring macrofest like Luna or something.
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I immediately note that the left and right start positions have an insanely easy time defending the mineral patch in their main (especially when compared to the top and bottom start positions). The left and right spots have the advantage of their starting minerals flush against the edge of the screen.
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On November 18 2009 04:38 Day[9] wrote:
I immediately note that the left and right start positions have an insanely easy time defending the mineral patch in their main (especially when compared to the top and bottom start positions). The left and right spots have the advantage of their starting minerals flush against the edge of the screen.
Didn't seem to hurt Othello too badly, as far as I know.
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Carriers and Mutas ftw here.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On November 18 2009 04:38 Day[9] wrote:
I immediately note that the left and right start positions have an insanely easy time defending the mineral patch in their main (especially when compared to the top and bottom start positions). The left and right spots have the advantage of their starting minerals flush against the edge of the screen.
maps like Tornado and Othello seem okay though.
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On November 18 2009 10:29 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 04:38 Day[9] wrote:
I immediately note that the left and right start positions have an insanely easy time defending the mineral patch in their main (especially when compared to the top and bottom start positions). The left and right spots have the advantage of their starting minerals flush against the edge of the screen. maps like Tornado and Othello seem okay though.
Which means that it isn't something to make or break your map, but it would still be a good thing to avoid  Is there a way to just rotate the other two bases' resources so that they all have their minerals flush to the edge of the map, or would that fuck up gas mining?
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I think the middle should be high-ground with routes around it, purely because that means fights for position in the middle will be more tactical.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On November 18 2009 10:32 CaptainPlatypus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 10:29 konadora wrote:On November 18 2009 04:38 Day[9] wrote:
I immediately note that the left and right start positions have an insanely easy time defending the mineral patch in their main (especially when compared to the top and bottom start positions). The left and right spots have the advantage of their starting minerals flush against the edge of the screen. maps like Tornado and Othello seem okay though. Which means that it isn't something to make or break your map, but it would still be a good thing to avoid Is there a way to just rotate the other two bases' resources so that they all have their minerals flush to the edge of the map, or would that fuck up gas mining?
Well it's possible.
On November 18 2009 10:41 ghermination wrote:
I think the middle should be high-ground with routes around it, purely because that means fights for position in the middle will be more tactical.
My original design was high ground center of map, but later on it just got bleh.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2686/4fubuki11.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9994/4fubuki10.jpg)
