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Canada5565 Posts
Poll: Petition
(Vote): I Agree - Jaedong and progamers deserve better
(Vote): I Disagree - what KeSPA is doing is fine
Even if it's small we at TL.net should do something. Anything.
It feels like - no is - a betrayal to stand by and do nothing while a player we have all come to know and respect is treated like trash.
We all watch his games, whether we are fans of SK, Fox, Khan, or any other team or player, we all know and love n.die_Jaedong.
TL.net is made up of people, you and me, and while we like to joke around and have fun watching FBH, at the end of the day we are all passionately behind each and every progamer. There is something special about Professional Star Craft. When we watch Boxer, KTY or Jaedong, you know it and I know it.
All I can suggest is a petition against this truly unreasonable treatment, before it sets a precedent and throttles our beloved world of progaming. We all sign it and someone who knows KeSPA or Fomos can show them that the fans of Jaedong and any other progamer under KeSPA are not going to roll over and flake out on players while they are going through their toughest times.
It's not saying "we want to make Jaedong stay a progamer for the rest of his life"
but rather, "we support his career - if you **** with Jaedong or any other progamers you will hear about it from us"
It probably won't do much, or anything, but doing this I can stand a little taller.
What about you?
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i support his retirement actually.
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On August 28 2009 15:45 nttea wrote:
i support his retirement actually.
I can't say I "support" but I think it could be a very good strategy for his life.
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Canada5565 Posts
It's not saying "we want to make Jaedong stay a progamer for the rest of his life"
but rather, "we support his career - if you **** with Jaedong or any other progamers you will hear about it from us"
If I see enough people interested (if there are not I will lose all respect for TL members) then I will start a petition thread, though it would be nice if someone with authority did it.
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from this point of view, ok, signed
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It would be a shame if the best player ever would just retire
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Not that I think it will do much, but still better than nothing. I support this.
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We have no means of putting pressure on Kespa. Why would they listen to a horde of foreigners who have no idea about what's going on behind the scenes?
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51450 Posts
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
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On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
No, but its just sad  You don't just retire after winning an OSL...
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Canada5565 Posts
I don't see how that's relevant. It's about supporting Jaedong and the rights of progamers under KeSPA, it's the principle of it if nothing else. I would like to see that people don't just talk about how much the Star Craft scene means to them but show it, even if it's through something as small as this.
If nothing is said or done things can only get worse.
I'm trying to get this across - Jaedong can do what he wants, but whatever that is we support him.
It's the situation KeSPA's rules have created that appalls me as a fan and supporter of progamers and eSports.
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woot? no epic match between jaedong and boxer?
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Jaedong should have a choice between retirement and a fair contract, not a choice between retirement and an unfair contract. Same goes for all progamers.
Signed.
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jaedong should start playing poker
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United States11390 Posts
On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
You also think kpop is a good thing.
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On August 28 2009 16:36 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? You also think kpop is a good thing.
Touche!
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On August 28 2009 16:36 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? You also think kpop is a good thing.
ouch.
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Jaedong cant leave like this , one of the bonjwas leaving like this ? its just seem ... not right .
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On August 28 2009 16:36 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? You also think kpop is a good thing.
pwned
On August 28 2009 16:45 Sinedd wrote:
Jaedong cant leave like this , one of the bonjwas leaving like this ? its just seem ... not right .
except...Jaedong is not a bonjwa
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On August 28 2009 16:45 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:36 Harem wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? You also think kpop is a good thing. pwned Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:45 Sinedd wrote:
Jaedong cant leave like this , one of the bonjwas leaving like this ? its just seem ... not right . except...Jaedong is not a bonjwa
Yes, Jaedong is not a bonjwa. He is the GOAT.
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Im with u man.... We like Teamliquid, MAYBE could do something like take pictures of us with a FUCK KESPA sign and a big collage of everyone with that sign, maybe one Korean user of the forum can post it on fomos or something like that, maybe we could send a message to the korean netizens to go against kespa (they would be surprise if maybe 10% of teamliquid do that) cus we are foreign and we are strange for them.
Im crazy I know but I love so much this game that I feel really sad when I see players being slaves of greedy Corps.
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We should support him financially and tell him to take whatever OZ offers him.
I will put in a $1 a year, you guys cover the other $150k.
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Seriously, if Korean fans can't do shit about Kespa walking all over players, what can us foreign fans, who contribute basically nothing besides a few MBC hoodies, do to affect Kespa?
On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
I also think this way. But then again, I'm studying business so I don't have the blatant fanboy-mode on.
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For me I'm against the current FA policy not because I want Jaedong to stay in (that's his own choice) but because the current system is completely illogical and needlessly whittles down every progamer's choices.
If Kespa keeps walking this path soon it will be impossible to go to another team.
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Yeah we cant do not for JD to stay just to wake up the koreans about Kespa.. that thing is killing SC slowly but for sure.
Im more with the idea of JD stop playing SC and live happy doing another thing and not like a slave on Oz.
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On August 28 2009 17:41 Loanshark wrote:
For me I'm against the current FA policy not because I want Jaedong to stay in (that's his own choice) but because the current system is completely illogical and needlessly whittles down every progamer's choices.
If Kespa keeps walking this path soon it will be impossible to go to another team.
It is completely logical from Kespa's standpoint, for the exact reason you noted: "whittles down every progamer's choices".
You can argue that it's morally wrong. You can argue that it should be illegal. But you can't say it's illogical.
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Imo jaedong is the bonjwa of this period, and it'd be so sad to see someone who would be favorite for taking the sl next season reitre because of his fucking retarded parents who think about their own pocket rather than what their son wants, i dont think his parents will make him retire thats so stupid
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On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
I think a lot of people are more upset about the state of the industry rather than just jaedong. Even non-fanboys can see that something is seriously wrong with the whole situation, for all players, but especially jaedong. If jaedong isn't actually bringing in money enough for his to justify a bigger salary, then pro starcraft might not be sustainable. If you get treated like shit for doing a 24h job, then pro starcraft might not be an okay career choice. Either way, our pastime will suffer. Let's face it, everyone here wants to see him play. We can't say that his parent's are bad for looking out for him (under these circumstances, why shouldn't he retire), but if you don't desire good starcraft, why are you here?
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he will never die, he wont die, he will join a new team, you bet on that! >_<
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On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
no I agree lol
People should take a step back and realize that Jaedong isn't progaming. In my view he is nothing special at all, then again I'm an old timer and look back at the 4 kings for inspiration.
Anyways, this thread is dumb. How is Jaedong being treated like shit btw, the guy just won another Starleague and god knows how much money he has made from Starcraft already. It's also funny how no one EVER tries to look for anything good in Kespa. People hop on the "Kespa sucks" bandwagon but I'm not sure if everyone understands why. Do you have any idea how much Kespa has done for Esports??
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wait, im sorry, wats the problem now? i havent logged in for like a week and im lost now.
is it that no team wants to bid for jaedong cuz he would turn out to be way too expensive, and now he either accepts to stay in OZ or retires? and could someone explain what's the problem with kespa please? is it that they force the player to negotiate with his highest bidding team only? or is there something else fucked up now? sorry...thanks 
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I don't see us doing anything financially or judicially. I think the most impact we could have is to send a letter on behalf of TL to him saying we're watching these events closely and want to see everything work out for him.
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On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
If he wants to be a progamer and is forced to quit? Hell yeah it is.
If it really was his own free decision it would be a different story
On August 28 2009 18:03 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? no I agree lol People should take a step back and realize that Jaedong isn't progaming. In my view he is nothing special at all, then again I'm an old timer and look back at the 4 kings for inspiration. Anyways, this thread is dumb. How is Jaedong being treated like shit btw, the guy just won another Starleague and god knows how much money he has made from Starcraft already. It's also funny how no one EVER tries to look for anything good in Kespa. People hop on the "Kespa sucks" bandwagon but I'm not sure if everyone understands why. Do you have any idea how much Kespa has done for Esports??
The people who skyrocketed Esports were the original leaders of kespa, who are NOT the same people that lead it now.
And JD won those titles because he worked like a madman, doesn't have much to do with how he's being treated.
It's not an unreasonable Kespa sucks bandwagon, it's just pretty obvious that the FA system sucks, a.o. reasons cause of players having no decision over what team they're gonna go to
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At least give me a Bisu-Jaedong bo5.
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the reasons nobody bid for JD is a combination of the high prize and the fact he constantly points out how much he wants to stay with OZ. If he don't get a great salary he should just fuck them and go do something else, he's a genius so he can do anything.
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negotiations with Oz started today, right?
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The problem is that it should be Jaedong's choice, not his parents. As far as I understand, it's up to his parents whether or not to accept an offer from Oz, not JD himself, because of the fucking ridiculous age of majority in South Korea (20). What a joke.
It will seriously break my heart if Jaedong's parents deny an offer he himself wants to take (and I can only assume he does not want to retire right now).
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I hope Jaedong retires... He's got a huge legacy to leave behind now. It would be perfect time to pick up new interests, go to school; all the things he's missed as progamer. Progaming isn't a permanent job honestly.
That said, I'm pretty sure that he won't retire. He's Lee Jaedong, he's probably one of the most dedicated SC players I've ever seen. He also seems very happy on Hwasung Oz, even if they are putting a lot of pressure on him like his parents say. I hope his parents don't try and make his decisions for him. Hwasung Oz isn't trying to cut his salary next season, are they?
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To be that good at something and not continue to do it?
I don't see how there are some people who arent bothered by this.
I don't imagine he wants to stop. If he did, thats a different story.
How could it not be a story about how KeSPA is ruining their own sprots if debatably the best player ever is essentially forced to retire? They need to have more control over what they do. If this happens to Jaedong, whos to say it wont happen more often, to other players, and affect the sport it ways we really can't put our finger on. This sort of control will dimish the quality of the sport.
It makes me sad to think he would retire with so much potential left. I fail to see how this could not sadden someone.
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But at the same time he is a Kid, yeah maybe he is 19 but u have to think that he didnt have didnt do the things that every 13-19 boy does, during that time he was just playing SC all day long and he saw Oz like his only place to be. He doesnt judge well the situation, he just thinks that Oz is all, and Oz isnt all.... if the coach really care for him he cant play with his mind saying on his ear "you are my best player and u will be forever with me" on the final, thats just fucking with his mind, obviously he wants to stay on Oz. But Oz isnt the best option just look:
1) They offer Jaedong 140M WON + 60M WON if he wins things (idk probably proleague with the team)
2) OFC Jaedongs parents say NO to that (WTF other A Class players win that... and u know that Jaedong is the best right now) others players won like 300M.
3) Why the parents? BECAUSE that stupid rule of kespa: No agents (wtf thats illegal on my country)... Im so happy that he cant make the decision for himself.
4) The other stupid KESPA rule make other teams idea to bid for him very hard to do. Just think they have to pay like 240M to Oz (A lot of money)
5) Jaedong did something wrong and said on the interviews that he doesnt want to go to another team (mindfucked by his coach and probably every Oz people maybe not the other players).
6) Why other teams are going to spend that money on a player that said those things, but again he was just mindfucked by his coach and team members.
Idk but all this situation is so bad and Im sure that his parents are going to make the best decision for him, but if Kespa rulz werent so bad this wouldnt ever happened.
PS: sry for my english I hope u get my idea.
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Jaedong diserves what NaDa had during his 3 osl + MSL achievements!
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On August 28 2009 15:49 MK wrote:I can't say I "support" but I think it could be a very good strategy for his life.
Wow, I seriously can't comprehend why some people argue that he'll have it better quitting progaming for uni. I mean the guy obviously LOVES what he's doing. He has a relatively huge wage which can't really be achieved without years of studies in addition to years of work experience. On top of this, he's young enough that it doesn't really matter what he does the next couple of years. There will always be time to move on to studies.
Also, as one of the most famous famous progamer as of today, there is bound to be work opportunities within the industry if he chose to follow that path. Why do people, hell, even parents, feel they have a right to question something that someone is committing to to that extent, which at the same time allows them to make a living?
Also jaedong and his parents failed misserably in any form of negotiation. Really, if they want to get a decent deal it would probably be a good idea to be in complete agreement beforehand so as to avoid that one part goes out saying one thing and the other something completely different. Now look what he's got.
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Exactly hifriend.
I'll go on to say that life is about doing shit that Jaedong is doing.
He's very lucky to have found a niche he is so adept to. Why go on to be just another kid doing regular stuff... it would be a tragedy. He's arguably the best in the world at something that thousands and thousands dedicate their lives to.
Just because he is the best... people get different...
If we say he should move on to other things we are saying that about all progamers who are "wasting their youth" and whatnot. Life isn't about doing what everyone else does (school, sports, other hobbies... whatever) and being all mediocre at everything. Jaedong should continue what he is doing. I don't even see that its debatable.
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dont retire plsss..... if u retire now, im not gonna watch sc anymore!! u still have alot to prove!!
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On August 28 2009 18:32 GoSu wrote:
Jaedong diserves what NaDa had during his 3 osl + MSL achievements!
what?
Nada is much more achieved than Jaedong
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On August 28 2009 18:49 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 18:32 GoSu wrote:
Jaedong diserves what NaDa had during his 3 osl + MSL achievements! what? Nada is much more achieved than Jaedong
He isnt saying that... please get his message right.
He doesnt remember the total of Nada achievements, thats why he puts a + MSL achievements.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
are progamers underpaid - no, the market dictates that. .... ... then again the market is corrupt so LOL
is jaedong underpaid - yes, due to the comarison between his salary and other slightly inferior players.
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On August 28 2009 18:03 UGC4 wrote:wait, im sorry, wats the problem now? i havent logged in for like a week and im lost now. is it that no team wants to bid for jaedong cuz he would turn out to be way too expensive, and now he either accepts to stay in OZ or retires? and could someone explain what's the problem with kespa please? is it that they force the player to negotiate with his highest bidding team only? or is there something else fucked up now? sorry...thanks
Please answer. I want to know too. What did Kespa do in this case?
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The Free Agency system is clearly broken, my support is behind this.
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And btw, out of the 5 players who declared FA, only go.go got a bid? Seriously? A player like Midas is likely to retire (or go to Ace?) because no one could afford the cost of FA?
Jaedong is just the icing on the caske. The FA system is faulty.
I don't think Kespa or the teams would have the least bit of interest in what a bunch of foreigners think, but a petition or whatever is still better than bitching on an internet forum.
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I support this all the way. The FA-system and KeSPA with their monopoly-inducing rules are making the whole situation so unfair and fucked up that I can hardly believe it's true. It's like racism towards pro-gamers. I'm starting to understand what drove all those people in history that started revolutions. I wish I could do more than just signing a petition, but it's a first step, and it's a step in the right direction.
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KeSPA, their rules are really messing up the financial potential of players. Obviously there are negative aspects but if you consider the plus side, it prevents a situation where very few players control massive amounts of money on the scene. Since PL can be won by a player like Jaedong alone, it would result in a situation where only a few players ever make money and teams could potentially lose depth and there wouldn't be teams anymore, just star players with enormous salaries plus some great players who end up being paid very little.
Also, consider that these teams brought in Jae Dong and trained, fed, gave him a place to sleep and develop. It seems natural that KeSPA wants teams to hold on to players they developed and prevent players from switching teams and being loyal to only money. Or else you end up with a different kind of progaming culture where money is king and coaches rotate players in and out all the time, never developing, just buying potential.
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May be I'm not getting the point, but imo guy earning over 100k per year before even 20 y.o. for playin g video games doesn't need help. B-teamers playing for almost nothing may be, but Jaedong? LOL
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On August 28 2009 20:28 1984 wrote:
May be I'm not getting the point, but imo guy earning over 100k per year before even 20 y.o. for playin g video games doesn't need help. B-teamers playing for almost nothing may be, but Jaedong? LOL
u'd have to understand like every other star in other major sports, great players doesn't get paid only for their practise and work on their respective games, but also their name/marketing/advertising values...
i mean look at all the air time Hwaseung gets with Jaedong on stage, u see Jaedong, u see Hwaseungs brand on him, not to mention all the publicity Jaedong did for them, the shoe commercial and such...
and yes, Jaedong deserved way more than what Hwaseung has offered, and yes, B-teamers are definately being mistreated with their salaries as well...
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corrupt up in this mutha fucka
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Not a Fan of Jaedong at all...But the world of SC needs him to stay competitive!
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On August 28 2009 21:00 Corrupt wrote:
corrupt up in this mutha fucka
lol
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jaedong should stay, who else would get the diamond mouse?
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I totally support sending some sort of message to kespa. If their contract is unfair I think its important that the community lets them know.
For anyone who isnt aware of whats going on... the free agent policy is discussed in
this thread.
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Supported. Hopefully, in a year or so when sc2 comes out Blizz will completetly take over from Kespa and leave them in the dark.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 28 2009 18:03 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? no I agree lol People should take a step back and realize that Jaedong isn't progaming. In my view he is nothing special at all, then again I'm an old timer and look back at the 4 kings for inspiration. Anyways, this thread is dumb. How is Jaedong being treated like shit btw, the guy just won another Starleague and god knows how much money he has made from Starcraft already. It's also funny how no one EVER tries to look for anything good in Kespa. People hop on the "Kespa sucks" bandwagon but I'm not sure if everyone understands why. Do you have any idea how much Kespa has done for Esports??
You're the idiot that thinks 4pool / 9pool rushes is zerg imbalance. Crying about it when Fantasy got his ass handed to him.
GTFO you noob. Your D level iccup oppinion means nothing.
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On August 28 2009 22:56 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 18:03 Foucault wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? no I agree lol People should take a step back and realize that Jaedong isn't progaming. In my view he is nothing special at all, then again I'm an old timer and look back at the 4 kings for inspiration. Anyways, this thread is dumb. How is Jaedong being treated like shit btw, the guy just won another Starleague and god knows how much money he has made from Starcraft already. It's also funny how no one EVER tries to look for anything good in Kespa. People hop on the "Kespa sucks" bandwagon but I'm not sure if everyone understands why. Do you have any idea how much Kespa has done for Esports?? You're the idiot that thinks 4pool / 9pool rushes is zerg imbalance. Crying about it when Fantasy got his ass handed to him. GTFO you noob. Your D level iccup oppinion means nothing.
Now, now, baby, don't get upset
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On August 28 2009 20:08 dcberkeley wrote:
KeSPA, their rules are really messing up the financial potential of players. Obviously there are negative aspects but if you consider the plus side, it prevents a situation where very few players control massive amounts of money on the scene. Since PL can be won by a player like Jaedong alone, it would result in a situation where only a few players ever make money and teams could potentially lose depth and there wouldn't be teams anymore, just star players with enormous salaries plus some great players who end up being paid very little.
Also, consider that these teams brought in Jae Dong and trained, fed, gave him a place to sleep and develop. It seems natural that KeSPA wants teams to hold on to players they developed and prevent players from switching teams and being loyal to only money. Or else you end up with a different kind of progaming culture where money is king and coaches rotate players in and out all the time, never developing, just buying potential.
Uh...have you missed the fact that we're already in that situation? It's been widely accepted so far, that only a few players command large amounts of money and most play for slave wages or for nothing more than food and board. The reason everyone is upset now is that even the best players are getting abused in the same way.
KeSPA doesn't care about switching teams or being loyal to money, just keeping down costs so they can run a league without spending much money. Which leads to an ethical dilemma as a fan where one might love watching SC and ESPORTS, but hate the fact hundreds of children are being basically abused with nothing in return for our entertainment.
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(1) 20 years old may be considered adulthood in the West, but in Korea it isn't. If he were 17 years old and an American nobody would be saying anything about his parents having to sign off on his decision. Don't be ethnocentric.
(2) His parents want what's best for him. Honestly, it's a little insulting for him to be paid 140,000 won while he's better than the guys pulling 300,000 won. I don't think he does it for the money. Every time I've ever seen him play or talk about playing Starcraft I could tell that he does it out of sheer passion. However, his parents have a point that his team is being incredibly cheap. I think his mom stated that he should at least get paid 180,000 won/year, and is that really so ridiculous? He carried a team that's probably overall worse than ACE to the finals.
(3) As far as I can see, a lot of what happened was on Jaedong. He showed no desire to go to any other team, so every other team was probably deathly afraid of picking him up. Think about it. Would you drop THAT MUCH MONEY on a player unless you could expect some significant results? Furthermore, would you expect significant results from a player that just wants to be back on his old team?
(4) KeSPA sucks. KeSPA sucks. KeSPA sucks.
(5) I don't know if leaving Starcraft at this point in time would be a terrible idea for him in the end. If he went to America to study, he could open up a lot of doors. Don't forget that these guys are all incredibly smart; I could easily see him as the world's best surgeon. 450 APM surgery FTW.
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On August 28 2009 23:05 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 22:56 Tien wrote:On August 28 2009 18:03 Foucault wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? no I agree lol People should take a step back and realize that Jaedong isn't progaming. In my view he is nothing special at all, then again I'm an old timer and look back at the 4 kings for inspiration. Anyways, this thread is dumb. How is Jaedong being treated like shit btw, the guy just won another Starleague and god knows how much money he has made from Starcraft already. It's also funny how no one EVER tries to look for anything good in Kespa. People hop on the "Kespa sucks" bandwagon but I'm not sure if everyone understands why. Do you have any idea how much Kespa has done for Esports?? You're the idiot that thinks 4pool / 9pool rushes is zerg imbalance. Crying about it when Fantasy got his ass handed to him. GTFO you noob. Your D level iccup oppinion means nothing. Now, now, baby, don't get upset
If you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread, I suggest you stop posting. Oh wait is that the SKT1 logo ? That explains it lol
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Is there for TL.net admins to find out who voted "I Disagree"
and ban them all?
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United States4796 Posts
I don't think it matters whether Jaedong is leaving or not. I think it's more important that he decides what he wants, including what team he wants to be. He should be given more rights as a player in general, regardless of what team he's on/going to/ what his parents are mad about.
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On August 28 2009 16:45 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:36 Harem wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? You also think kpop is a good thing. pwned Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:45 Sinedd wrote:
Jaedong cant leave like this , one of the bonjwas leaving like this ? its just seem ... not right . except...Jaedong is not a bonjwa
You are right. None of the bonjwa's at their peak could even take a game off of jaedong.
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Without a way to quantify the revenue that starcraft players generate for their sponsors it's hard to say what fair compensation for them is. However, the ownership should not be the primary benefit of the player's work, they should be well-compensated for the value they bring to their team (whatever that is). Without the merchandising, luxury seats, concessions, boost to regional tourism, and all sorts of other benefits major sport athletes get in the US/Europe, it's much more difficult to determine how much the players can actually get paid for esports to be sustainable. Is the replacement of *huge* sponsors like coca-cola and proctor & gamble (pringles) with the likes of bacchus and incruit indicative of a decline in esports? If other players are getting 300M it's entirely possible that the sponsors are willing to take a financial loss in the short term in the hopes that such a salary becomes undervalued by the time the contract ends.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On August 28 2009 16:36 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? You also think kpop is a good thing.
hahahahaaa
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Am I the only one that think JD retiring is good for his future in the long run? If Jaedong comes to america, he might actually influence the american community to start their own StarCraft team.
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On August 29 2009 00:36 Xiphos wrote:
Am I the only one that think JD retiring is good for his future in the long run? If Jaedong comes to america, he might actually influence the american community to start their own StarCraft team.
No you aren't the only one, as others stated before you the same thing.
I, however, doubt that Jaedong will 'influence' an ameircan company to sponsor a professional Starcraft team.
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On August 28 2009 23:57 WWJDD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:45 Mortician wrote:On August 28 2009 16:36 Harem wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? You also think kpop is a good thing. pwned On August 28 2009 16:45 Sinedd wrote:
Jaedong cant leave like this , one of the bonjwas leaving like this ? its just seem ... not right . except...Jaedong is not a bonjwa You are right. None of the bonjwa's at their peak could even take a game off of jaedong.
First: Bonjwa is a title of dominance, not absolute skill.
Second: Jaedong is a bonjwa. From a Bisu fan. A hardcore bisu fan.
While the competition as to who would emerge the next dominant player was far greater now than it ever was before, Jaedong has truly become the greatest player of his time. Think about his 3 OSL's, and how he didn't have to cross into an era that didn't belong to him to get them. Think about GOM, and how he defeated Bisu in the cross GOM match. Think about his most wins in proleague, and think about where Oz would be without him. And think about this: Would he be a favorite against anyone in the world? Yes.
One can point out that he doesn't "feel" like a bonjwa, or that a bonjwa would have won proleague, or some other half baked response, but the fact is he single handedly pushes his team and Zerg to new levels.
Moreover, even if you agree with nothing else I say, there is not progamer who deserves your respect more than Jaedong does. The work he is willing to put into this to be the Greatest of All Time, when his talent would be enough to make him good is extraordinary, and if anyone deserves a higher salary, it's him.
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Also who is pulling 300millwon?
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I'm a little pissed that 12 people arent supporting this.
No one hates kespa; kespa virtually made E-Sports.
We hate the dumbass decisions they have made regarding this free agency policy, and we all want to change that decision. If kespa can be replaced with something better, so be it.
+ Show Spoiler +basic example: you are the best horse and buggy maker in the world, but then Henry Ford makes the car. Everyone loves cars, they're the best thing ever, but you keep making horse & buggies. No one wants a horse or buggy anymore, and you dont catch up to the times... and you go out of business. and Ford motors takes over. thats the way it all works.
thats my example of this concept (if you even need it, it's dumb.)
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On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
Its not, he is at his prime and sometimes its cool to just leave with such a huge mark on the scene. The thing that worries everyone is that its not his choice. If he was getting paid resonably, and his parents did not intervene, and he decided its enough, then we would all be happy for him. however, nothing is his hands
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On August 28 2009 23:51 NiTenIchiRyu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 23:05 Mortician wrote:On August 28 2009 22:56 Tien wrote:On August 28 2009 18:03 Foucault wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? no I agree lol People should take a step back and realize that Jaedong isn't progaming. In my view he is nothing special at all, then again I'm an old timer and look back at the 4 kings for inspiration. Anyways, this thread is dumb. How is Jaedong being treated like shit btw, the guy just won another Starleague and god knows how much money he has made from Starcraft already. It's also funny how no one EVER tries to look for anything good in Kespa. People hop on the "Kespa sucks" bandwagon but I'm not sure if everyone understands why. Do you have any idea how much Kespa has done for Esports?? You're the idiot that thinks 4pool / 9pool rushes is zerg imbalance. Crying about it when Fantasy got his ass handed to him. GTFO you noob. Your D level iccup oppinion means nothing. Now, now, baby, don't get upset If you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread, I suggest you stop posting. Oh wait is that the SKT1 logo ? That explains it lol
If you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread, I suggest you stop posting. Oh wait is that the CJ logo ? Damn, now I'm ashamed
+ Show Spoiler +
argh fuck, what a waste for post #1000, didn't see that coming...
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Those complaining about the age of majority in Korea being too high must not understand how age is counted there. Age 20 in Korea is at most 1 year longer than 18 in the U.S.A. and can be as short as 1 day. It's the equivalent of 18.5 
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Imo one thing many of you guys missing is that Asian society is sometimes significantly different from Western, so it's not always a good thing to judge them from the outside perspective. Though anyway I hope Blizzard won't allow Kespa too much in SC2.
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There should be a word filter for "bonjwa".
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On August 29 2009 02:01 koreasilver wrote:
There should be a word filter for "bonjwa".
Why? He explained it out and it makes sense, maybe you shouldn't just stop reading every time you see the word.
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On August 28 2009 16:15 Scorch wrote:
We have no means of putting pressure on Kespa. Why would they listen to a horde of foreigners who have no idea about what's going on behind the scenes?
This.
But also its very sad to hear this. Its news to me...a sad one but still.
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On August 29 2009 01:43 NovaTheFeared wrote:Those complaining about the age of majority in Korea being too high must not understand how age is counted there. Age 20 in Korea is at most 1 year longer than 18 in the U.S.A. and can be as short as 1 day. It's the equivalent of 18.5
For all legal matters the "real" age is used
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning
And by the Korean system Jaedong would already be 20.
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140million won is a weakass contract for Jaedong. Savior/Nada get over 200million and they aren't even good anymore. Jaedong has a golden mouse, and carries his team, so you can't argue that his credentials are much weaker.
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Canada5565 Posts
Wow! I woke up this morning and and saw 344 votes already for better treatment of programers! I am really happy. Hopefully more people will vote - I know there are thousands of people that come to this site.
Keep in mind that TL.net is the bastion of Star Craft eSports outside Korea, if KeSPA or Blizzard ever want to bring the Pro. scene West or to any other part of the world they will know we want better treatment of players.
I read some posts about not being a fanboy and looking at the business side of things from KeSPA's perspective. Please read my first post in entirety, it is not about Jaedong - he just happens to be the player caught in the situation.
If you agree that what KeSPA is doing is fine and logical because might is right and they may as well try and choke out as much money as possible from progamers, well, fair enough.
I try not to be a hypocrite - I'm not religious but I like to see other people treated how I would like to be.
If Jaedong or any progamer is treated this poorly after years of quality performance and dedication, I feel like I must try and change this, in whatever way I can.
To merely just watch these events transpire I can't help but feel like I'm allowing it to happen, or perhaps not helping it not to happen, and am a hypocrite for watching these teams and progamers devote themselves to the sport then only continue to be a spectator when they need their fans and public support the most.
And please let me remind you, Shine, Midas, and Hyun are pretty much in the same boat as Jaedong.
If you haven't, read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100601 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100601
If enough people at at Team Liquid step up to the plate on this we can join with the many other sites that are appalled by these player restrictions. Letting other people voice your principles and opinion on this isn't good enough. Keep voting, get TL.net involved and we can join other Star Craft communities on this.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will?
I agree.
What's more, Jaedong NOT retiring sets a bad precedent for other players. If Jaedong is willing to take it in ass from Kespa and Hwaseung (pardon the language), what's stopping other teams from squeezing more out of their players?
On August 28 2009 18:34 hifriend wrote:
Wow, I seriously can't comprehend why some people argue that he'll have it better quitting progaming for uni. I mean the guy obviously LOVES what he's doing. He has a relatively huge wage which can't really be achieved without years of studies in addition to years of work experience. On top of this, he's young enough that it doesn't really matter what he does the next couple of years. There will always be time to move on to studies.
His wage is not "relatively huge". 70M KRW is approximately equivalent to 50-55K USD, which, while respectable for someone his age, is not what you'd call "relatively huge" by any measure. It's not even significantly more than the average starting salary of a US college graduate.
What's more, working up the motivation to pursue university studies goes down a lot once you pass the normal age range for it. 18-24, going to uni seems natural. By the time you're 28, that motivation becomes a lot less (partly because you'll often have more financial responsibility at that point), especially when considering doing so overseas.
On August 28 2009 18:34 hifriend wrote:
Also, as one of the most famous famous progamer as of today, there is bound to be work opportunities within the industry if he chose to follow that path. Why do people, hell, even parents, feel they have a right to question something that someone is committing to to that extent, which at the same time allows them to make a living?
You have to be naive to think that professional Starcraft will go on long enough for Jaedong to secure his future. With Starcraft 2 on the horizon, there's not even a guarantee that the game has 5 years left. And will Jaedong really be happy coaching another game? Can you see Jaedong being happy working for a mediocre wage coaching players at Sudden Attack or something?
On August 28 2009 18:34 hifriend wrote:
Also jaedong and his parents failed misserably in any form of negotiation. Really, if they want to get a decent deal it would probably be a good idea to be in complete agreement beforehand so as to avoid that one part goes out saying one thing and the other something completely different. Now look what he's got.
You have to respect that Jaedong's parents did as much as they could, and took the best reasonable course of action as a parent, looking out for Jaedong in the long term. Obviously it would be better if Jaedong could have an agent, but letting Hwaseung push him around is not an acceptable alternative.
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On August 29 2009 03:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? I agree. What's more, Jaedong NOT retiring sets a bad precedent for other players. If Jaedong is willing to take it in ass from Kespa and Hwaseung (pardon the language), what's stopping other teams from squeezing more out of their players?
The fans
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If Jaedong does retire to goto university in the states I nominate myself for roomate.
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On August 29 2009 03:34 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 03:27 TheYango wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? I agree. What's more, Jaedong NOT retiring sets a bad precedent for other players. If Jaedong is willing to take it in ass from Kespa and Hwaseung (pardon the language), what's stopping other teams from squeezing more out of their players? The fans
Seriously, if the tantrum the fans through at the Gorush/PPP incident was enough to get them to double take, then their system forcing JAEDONG to retire will have them crying from the rage of fans.
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On August 29 2009 03:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 03:34 StorrZerg wrote:On August 29 2009 03:27 TheYango wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? I agree. What's more, Jaedong NOT retiring sets a bad precedent for other players. If Jaedong is willing to take it in ass from Kespa and Hwaseung (pardon the language), what's stopping other teams from squeezing more out of their players? The fans Seriously, if the tantrum the fans through at the Gorush/PPP incident was enough to get them to double take, then their system forcing JAEDONG to retire will have them crying from the rage of fans.
yeah srsly. i mean no returning 3x OSL champ? breaker of the OSL curse, pretty much the best damn player around right now.
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We matter because we're an emerging market. Pissed korean fans won't stop watching sc. Pissed off foreigners will stop spreading sc.
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i vote jaedong retire and join fOsc!
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It will be a sad day for esports if JD retires. Winner of the past 2 OSL's? The dominant player of an era? It's not like progaming would be ruined, but what 1 player could be as influential as him at the moment?
In the end, it's just KeSPA's shitty rules that ruin things for Jaedong and the fans. Nobody wins.
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I don't think it's KeSPA that's forcing Jaedong to retire. It's the fact that oz will only pay him so much, and he wants to stay on oz. He never wanted the the FA his parents did. So why would anyone want to bid on a player they don't think they will get?
that being said... screw KeSPA's rules. They are freaking awful.
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I approve Jaedong's retirement eventhough I know it's not up to Jaedong.. fcking Oz used him as a tool.. it's against human rights.
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Canada5565 Posts
I am very happy to see that 430 people voted with me on this. However, I see almost 6,000 views of this thread! 6,000 votes from a foreign fan website of Korean Star Craft would be an amazing addition to the growing number of communities protesting this.
Lurkers come out!
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On August 28 2009 15:45 nttea wrote:
i support his retirement actually.
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if jaedong re-signs with OZ nothing will ever change and kespa will continue to make up these bullshit policies. I seriously hope that he retires to set the gears into motion for change.
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I want Jaedong to do what Jaedong wants to do.
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jd should retire, go study abroad, and join a foreign sc team
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In another thread someone suggested we pool our money together and form a TL team. Think about how awesome a team of Jaedong, go.go and Nony would be.
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Canada5565 Posts
I agree that Jaedong should be able to do what Jaedong wants to do in regards to eSports. However, this is not about Jaedong but the rules KeSPA has enforced that put him in his position
@Slow Motion...I'm in lol
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I want Jaedong to retire, come to USA and go like "oh i can straem my iccup games on TL? sweet ima do that everyday and show everyone how to get the olympic rings".
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Canada5155 Posts
I think the players desperately need to form a Player's Association. Then again, I dont know what Korea's policies are regarding unions.
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On August 29 2009 12:07 HawaiianPig wrote:
I think the players desperately need to form a Player's Association. Then again, I dont know what Korea's policies are regarding unions.
A PA would be great, but incredibly hard to fund//organize. I don't think it'll ever happen. On one hand, LJD is my favorite player and I'd hate to see him leave, but on the other retiring might be a good choice for him to progress in life down other avenues, so to speak. I'll be awfully upset if he's forced into retirement by KeSPA, but I'm also confident that he will become very successful in life. He's got too much dedication not to.
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If JD quits, then I will be disappointed. He's a really good player and to quit after you win an OSL, let alone the golden mouse, is highly disappointing.
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It is such a shame to see so much potential go to waste in LJD. He hasn't reached his peak yet I really was looking forward to see what he would bring to progaming in the future.
But the fact is LJD is underpayed and not getting the better end of the deal from OZ. The best Zerg and arguably the best player in the world should not getting underpayed or forced into this position.
KeSPA, have some respect for your players. They are what make you.
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WHERE DO ME SEND MONY FOR JADOnG?!!!!!!
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Can you imagine if they tried this stuff with any other sport? They'd hang Kespa in the streets if they were in charge of something say like soccer and tried doing this.
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i think he might as well retire now and persue a technical skill and better for working field later.
i mean hes progamer career is good and shine but it is about time to transition as he stepping into the 20s and stuff. really best to retire when your on the top
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Canada5565 Posts
Personally I would like to see Jaedong with the option to stay in the world of eSports, as a progamer making a deserved salary, and later as a coach. From what I have read he has seemed consistently adamant and passionate about staying in the progaming scene and it would be a shame to see him lose his dream. But, at the end of the day, whatever he does is cool with me. What isn't is the situation KeSPA has forced on him.
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On August 29 2009 14:15 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think he might as well retire now and persue a technical skill and better for working field later.
i mean hes progamer career is good and shine but it is about time to transition as he stepping into the 20s and stuff. really best to retire when your on the top
GTFO of our capitalist forum you communist bastard! That's just dumb. It's best to go out after you're washed up so you had the opportunity to cash in on the when you were at your best. I'd rather be rich and washed up than go out on top and not have gotten the highest possible return for my efforts anyday of the week.
EDIT: lol i called someone from Taiwan a communist.
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On August 29 2009 14:35 Mike941 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 14:15 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think he might as well retire now and persue a technical skill and better for working field later.
i mean hes progamer career is good and shine but it is about time to transition as he stepping into the 20s and stuff. really best to retire when your on the top GTFO of our capitalist forum you communist bastard! That's just dumb. It's best to go out after you're washed up so you had the opportunity to cash in on the when you were at your best. I'd rather be rich and washed up than go out on top and not have gotten the highest possible return for my efforts anyday of the week. EDIT: lol i called someone from Taiwan a communist.
yea pretty much fail right there
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On August 29 2009 14:35 Mike941 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 14:15 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think he might as well retire now and persue a technical skill and better for working field later.
i mean hes progamer career is good and shine but it is about time to transition as he stepping into the 20s and stuff. really best to retire when your on the top GTFO of our capitalist forum you communist bastard! That's just dumb. It's best to go out after you're washed up so you had the opportunity to cash in on the when you were at your best. I'd rather be rich and washed up than go out on top and not have gotten the highest possible return for my efforts anyday of the week. EDIT: lol i called someone from Taiwan a communist.
You actually have to uh get paid a decent amount to end up rich... something that Jaedong wasn't really receiving.
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24 Voters against were DogSPA employees.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 29 2009 14:35 Mike941 wrote:
GTFO of our capitalist forum you communist bastard! That's just dumb. It's best to go out after you're washed up so you had the opportunity to cash in on the when you were at your best. I'd rather be rich and washed up than go out on top and not have gotten the highest possible return for my efforts anyday of the week.
EDIT: lol i called someone from Taiwan a communist.
Making $58,000 USD a year is not considered rich, certainly not in the US.
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It would be a terrible shame for e-sports if he retires before he reaches the height of his career, although it would be kinda awesome to stop while he's ahead.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk5/neverggg/oslfinals/secondstring/15.jpg)
