• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:51
CEST 05:51
KST 12:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5: Vote to Decide Ladder Maps!0[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Mile High15Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments2[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon10
Community News
Artosis vs Ret Showmatch15Classic wins RSL Revival Season 22Weekly Cups (Sept 15-21): herO Goes For Four2SC2 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes + Sept 22nd update283BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch5
StarCraft 2
General
SHIN's Feedback to Current PTR (9/24/2025) Team Liquid jersey signed by the Kespa 8 SC2 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes + Sept 22nd update Storm change is a essentially a strict buff on PTR Question about resolution & DPI settings SC2
Tourneys
Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Prome's Evo #1 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo) Monday Nights Weeklies RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 492 Get Out More Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Artosis vs Ret Showmatch Pros React To: Barracks Gamble vs Mini ASL20 General Discussion Whose hotkey signature is this?
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro8 Day 2 [ASL20] Ro8 Day 1 BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch [IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Borderlands 3 Liquipedia App: Now Covering SC2 and Brood War!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Big Programming Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[AI] JoCo is Eminem for com…
Peanutsc
Try to reverse getting fired …
Garnet
[ASL20] Players bad at pi…
pullarius1
Too Many LANs? Tournament Ov…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1051 users

Ampere's Law and the Displacement Current

Blogs > micronesia
Post a Reply
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24701 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-19 01:25:39
June 19 2010 01:22 GMT
#1
This a brief discussion about Ampere's Law and why Maxwell added a term for the 'Displacement Current' to a seemingly perfect formula.


When electricity flows in a wire, it produces a magnetic field. You can easily look up pictures online of the direction of a magnetic field around a straight wire. Calculating the magnitude is a bit more tricky.

The most basic way to calculate he magnetic field is to use the Bio-Savart law, which is basically just the integral you have to solve to get the magnetic field for a 'continuous current distribution.' It's the analogue to using E = integral[k*dq/r^2] to find the electric field near a continuous charge distribution. The problem is that this integral (bio-savart) is ugly and/or impossible to solve for most problems aside from the easy ones.

During a chapter on static electricity you learn about how you can use Gauss' Law instead of the big integral associated with Coulomb's Law for solving some problems that have a high degree of symmetry. This is often a great shortcut. The analogue to that for magnetic fields is that you can use Ampere's Law to find the magnetic field near currents (provided the appropriate symmetry and whatnot). For Gauss' law you imagine a closed surface wrapped around a charge distribution and relate the electric flux passing through the surface to the amount of charge inside the surface. For Ampere's law instead of creating a closed surface you create a closed curve.

Way to think about a closed surface: an empty plastic bag that is stitched closed to have no opening with a charge distribution placed inside it.

Way to think about a closed curve/loop: a string with both ends tied together to make a circle or similar shape. This actually creates an 'open' surface. Think of a normal plastic bag with a draw-string at the top/opening. In order for current to pass through the bag it needs to pass through the loop of the string AND it needs to bust through a hole in the bag somehow (similar to how electric field lines pass through the closed surface) otherwise the current would get trapped by the bag, which would be pretty depressing for the current since it just got trapped by a bag which doesn't actually exist.

Of course for Gauss' and Ampere's Law there is no actual surface or loop near the charge/current distribution... it is just an imaginary construct placed to allow us to use the simple formulas. To use Ampere's law you place the closed curve around the current so that the string lines up parallel to the magnetic field. The current passes 'through' the loop of the string, like a beam of water being shot through a ring of fire... or something like that. Now you can mathematically relate the amount of current passing through the loop to the strength of the magnetic field where the 'string' of the loop is. If you want to know the magnitude of the magnetic field near the current you need to make a loop with a small radius; if you want to know the magnetic field further from the wire you need to make a loop with a bigger radius.

Ampere's Law, u0*I = closed_int[B*dl] works great for simple examples such as a long, straight wire. There is a flaw, however, that Maxwell discovered (and integrated into his more complete 'Maxwell's Equations')

Imagine a capacitor. Current flows through a wire into one plate of the capacitor, and then an equal current flows away from the other plate through another wire. Since there is current flow there is a magnetic field, and while the capacitor is still mostly uncharged it behaves mostly like a closed switch. Let's attempt to use Ampere's Law to find the magnetic field produced by the wire leading into the first plate. We take our closed curve (string) and wrap it around the wire a fixed distance (radius) away. You basically just have to do [u_0 * I / circumference_of_loop] in order to find the strength of the magnetic field. But Maxwell discovered a way to make this 'break.' He placed his closed loop in the same place but imagined the open surface it created (open plastic bag) to be positioned so that the first plate of the capacitor was inside the bag. The bottom of the bag was positioned between the two plates so that no hole needed to be punched in the plastic bag. Looks sorta like this:

[image loading]
Image Courtesy of Glider*

You can see that the closed loop (orange) wraps around the current without any problem, but the open surface (green) it creates is stretched so that the wire doesn't cut through it (this is a 2d depiction but is really a 3d situation so beware). If the current doesn't cut through the open surface then according to Ampere's Law there should be no magnetic field... but if you choose to use a smaller 'plastic bag' then the wire will cut through the bottom of the bag. How could the size of the imaginary bag affect how much current passes through the closed loop? Maxwell realized that Ampere's Law was wrong. His solution? Add a new term to the equation until it works for all situations regardless of how the open surface is chosen.

The Displacement Current: I_d = e_0 * d E_flux / dt

The fact that charge was building up on the capacitor plates means that an electric field is being produced steadily... and you have to take that into account when trying to use Ampere's Law to calculate the induced magnetic field. In Ampere's Law, where 'I' appears, Maxwell said substitute in I+I_d where 'I' is the current being carried by a wire/etc, called the conduction current, and I_d is the displacement current which only comes into play when there is a changing electric field penetrating the open surface of the closed loop.


This has been just a brief attempt to make clear some aspects of how to calculate magnetic fields being induced by currents before and after Maxwell added the Displacement Current to Ampere's Law. There was no major attempt to help the reader understand the mathematics behind using Ampere's Law to begin with (it's simple to solve algebraically, but a bit difficult to set up perhaps). Since each reader has a different background with this material it will probably come across as confusing (vocab, assumptions, etc) for some people and elementary and obvious to others... but oh well. If any notation, names, etc are confusing please ask!

*Just kidding. Glider couldn't make an image look this bad if he tried :p

*****
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Count9
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China10928 Posts
June 19 2010 01:27 GMT
#2
If you're gonna post physics equations please please please please please use Latex image for equations... please.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24701 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-19 01:29:01
June 19 2010 01:28 GMT
#3
On June 19 2010 10:27 Count9 wrote:
If you're gonna post physics equations please please please please please use Latex image for equations... please.

I don't actually know how to do that so advice would be appreciated. Now keep in mind I purposefully am de-emphasizing equations in this description and they are there in a few instances just to make clear the readers are able to confirm they know which things I am actually talking about.

edit: not sure why you are making such a big deal out of this though...
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
June 19 2010 01:33 GMT
#4
Well, the easiest way would be to just typeset the whole thing in LaTeX and then publish a pdf and link that. The equations were hard enough for me to read, and I had studied them before. I really don't want to complain though, as you don't have an obligation to obey our every whims.
Bibbit
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada5377 Posts
June 19 2010 01:35 GMT
#5
I was actually just noticing earlier how, at some point during my time here at TL, I just started to accept you and Kwark as super geniuses without ever really consciously thinking about it. I guess its things like this that made me come to that realization.
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
June 19 2010 01:35 GMT
#6
I'm not sure I'd say that the displacement current was added to a "seemingly perfect formula". There was no experimental reason to doubt that Ampere's Law (which is derived from the magnetostatic case) carried over to the dynamic case--simply because of the magnitude of the effect--but the theoretical problems (both the one you mention and the fact that without the displacement current Maxwell's equations can't be correct because the divergence of the curl of B is not generally zero like it has to be for a well-behaved vector field) show that it's not so perfect.

Granted I'm not sure how developed vector calculus was back 100 years ago but....

---

I don't see a problem with the equations in this topic. They seem to be presented for completeness more than for clarity.

If you wanted to turn them into images you could write them up in LaTeX and then build the .tex, then screenshot, crop the screenshot, and host it somewhere. There's likely a simpler way as well (heh) but I'm not familiar with any.

---

Can't really comment too much on the presentation because it's pretty easy to understand when you have seen the argument before and know where it's going. :p
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32276 Posts
June 19 2010 01:43 GMT
#7
On June 19 2010 10:35 Bibbit wrote:
I was actually just noticing earlier how, at some point during my time here at TL, I just started to accept you and Kwark as super geniuses without ever really consciously thinking about it. I guess its things like this that made me come to that realization.


Actually micronesia is really bad at physics.

He makes great jokes though!
Moderator<:3-/-<
ptell
Profile Joined October 2009
United States103 Posts
June 19 2010 01:53 GMT
#8
Micronesia, you can use this website to generate latex equation in picture form.
http://www.codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php
DeathByMonkeys
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States742 Posts
June 19 2010 03:04 GMT
#9
Good stuff man, I'm actually doing this exact stuff right now in my class I'm taking this summer. Coulomb's and Gauss' Laws and what not. I haven't quite got to Ampere's and Maxwell's Laws yet, but soon I'd imagine. This will probably give me a good understanding of what's going on from a conceptual point of view when I do start them.
n.DieJokes
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3443 Posts
June 19 2010 04:04 GMT
#10
I am so disappointed someone gave this one star. Thanks for the review, would have been even better early this may ^.^
MyLove + Your Love= Supa Love
Kentor *
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5784 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-26 23:31:28
August 26 2010 23:28 GMT
#11
I didn't get what my professor was talking about at all today (first day of school :\) so I googled

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=ampere's law maxwell term

and there was a link to this page. Thanks a lot for explaining why Ampere's law fails in the situation with the capacitor, the picture helped out. I still don't understand maxwell's term though and why it is what it is :p
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
August 27 2010 00:27 GMT
#12
huh interesting topic. thanks for sharing!

funny how it turns up on google :D
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24701 Posts
August 29 2010 02:08 GMT
#13
On August 27 2010 08:28 Kentor wrote:
I didn't get what my professor was talking about at all today (first day of school :\) so I googled

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=ampere's law maxwell term

and there was a link to this page. Thanks a lot for explaining why Ampere's law fails in the situation with the capacitor, the picture helped out. I still don't understand maxwell's term though and why it is what it is :p

Wow that's pretty crazy hahaha
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 10m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft514
RuFF_SC2 163
Nina 132
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 165
NaDa 50
Noble 39
Bale 10
Icarus 7
Dota 2
monkeys_forever760
capcasts205
League of Legends
JimRising 614
Counter-Strike
Fnx 367
Other Games
summit1g8696
C9.Mang0329
Maynarde132
ViBE105
Trikslyr69
NeuroSwarm69
kaitlyn33
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick810
BasetradeTV131
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5305
• Lourlo773
Other Games
• Scarra1293
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
6h 10m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 6h
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Serral vs herO
Clem vs Reynor
[BSL 2025] Weekly
2 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
BSL Team Wars
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
LiuLi Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
RSL Revival: Season 2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2025-26
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.