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[The Defense] Baguette vs Fnatic.EU Draft

Blogs > Carbonyl
Post a Reply
Carbonyl
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 07:29:53
January 11 2013 06:35 GMT
#1
Hey TL, quick disclaimer: I'm not trying to say I know next to anything about what goes into true professional drafting (I have huge respect for drafters). This is just an analysis as an interested player. Please voice your opinions (politely I hope) as to whether you agree or disagree with my analysis.

I’ll be categorizing heroes based off the Chinese system of 1-5. Position 1 gets the highest farm priority (hard carry), while position 5 gets the least farm priority (hard support).

I'll analyze a game from this perspective while I'm watching from the defense, Fnatic.EU vs Baguette (from 10 January 2013), replay 96774302.
Watch on YouTube
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Important to note now: Baguette (Dire) has first pick, giving Fnatic (Radiant) second and third pick.

1st Ban Phase
+ Show Spoiler +
1st ban from Baguette: Wisp (a 5 position). Banning a wisp bans the popular wisp+damage/gank strategy that's so popular right now. That global presence is something Baguette doesn't want to have to deal with, perhaps giving a hint as to a split pushing strategy (because there will often be a lone hero pushing the lane). Additionally, since Fnatic has its’ first two picks together, they could pick up whatever wisp/damage combo they wanted. Or, maybe Baguette just hates that tactic and don’t want to deal with it.

1st ban from Fnatic: Batrider (a 2/strong 3 position): great at initiations and separating teams. Generally just a huge hassle, very common ban and doesn't necessarily lend itself to any hint of their strategy without reading what may be too much into it.

2nd ban from Baguette: Darkseer (3/4 hero). Another general nuisance, really strong off-lane and teamfight hero. If we read into it, maybe Baguette want to have a good teamfight, and as such don't want Fnatic to be able to be as strong in that area.

2nd ban from Fnatic (going 30 sec into reserve time to do it): Nyx Assasin (generally played as a weak 3/normal 4 position right now). Another very popular ban right now, because he’s so versatile and useful. He can initiate, stun, block target spells, and set up ganks very easily.


1st Pick Phase
+ Show Spoiler +
1st pick from Baguette: Magnus (very weak 2, usually a 3, sometimes a 4). Not as popular as he was 2-3 months ago, but still a force to be reckoned with to be sure. Brings a strong ulti and great ability in skewer to a team. A good start to a teamfight-oriented lineup, if that’s what they choose to do.

1st and 2nd picks from Fnatic: Templar Assassin and Undying (TA is a great 2 position, Undying can be played as a strong 3 or a 4). TA provides a solid lane mid, not many heroes can outlane a TA. She’s also great a initiations, ganks, rune control, and a damage dealer, as well as being able to slow enemy heroes, hindering their mobility and making it harder to set up (great against Magnus). Undying is great teamfight, great abilities all around, and a pain to try and take down. His tombstone is great for reducing the mobility of enemy heroes, and especially against position based heroes (such as… Magnus. See a trend?).

2nd and 3rd pick from Baguette: Keeper of the Light and Lone Druid (a 4/5 and a weak 1/strong 2). KotL provides great push and antipush, as well as giving mana replenishment (great for magnus) and being able to summon heroes from afar (great for bringing in your farming lone druid). Lone druid has been a popular pickup recently as well, being effective at split-pushing and being very tanky. Now we see why wisp was banned first pick, Baguette didn’t want wisp+ck or tiny to come in and gank LD any time he tried to farm. His entangle is very useful for pinning down highly mobile heroes such as TA.

3rd pick from Fnatic: Shadow Demon (a solid 4/5): SD has being seeing a ton of play recently, for good reason. He’s great as disabling and adding to ganks, being able to be extremely effective in both offensive and defensive lanes. He can disrupt heroes like Magnus before they get off their powerful ultimates. Additionally, he can disrupt any target that gets entangled, similar to how he can do that to any target that gets Beastmaster roared (hence why he “counters” beast master. It gives his team time to get in position for a fight).


As analysts, let’s stop and take a step back here before the second ban stages begin. What are we seeing develop? Baguette’s lineup consists of Magnus, KotL, and Lone Druid. Great pushers and teamfight. Cool. Fnatic’s lineup is TA, Undying, and SD: A big focus on teamfight/mobility control and midgame aggression. This is going to force Baguette to have to get good positioning, lest they get picked off 1 at a time in teamfights around a tombstone. Alternatively, Fnatic is going to need some way to hold off the push that can come out from Baguette. So in this coming ban stage we should see things to this effect. Additionally, Fnatic will want to prevent Baguette from getting even more push, while Baguette probably wouldn’t mind not letting Fnatic get any more heroes adept at teamfight control.

Also, there are still gaps that need to be filled in each team’s lineups that will also heavily influence the bans. Baguette needs a position 2 hero, usually one that can deal out a ton of damage and is mobile, often goes mid. Then, based off how they play magnus, they need one of two things. If they play magnus as a 4, then they need a 3, which can be heroes like, NA or BH. If magnus is going to be there 3, then they will want a second support hero, such as veno, lina, rubick, etc. Fnatic needs a position 1 (hard carry), and then either a 3 (if Undying is played as a 4 (support)), or a 4/5 is undying is played in the 3 position.

Lets see what happens.

2nd Ban Phase
+ Show Spoiler +
Baguette’s 3rd ban: Leshrac (weak 3, normal 4/5). Leshrac can counter push, push, do lots of magical damage, aoe stun, and is a great combo with the SD of Fnatic, while fitting into one of the roles that Fnatic still needed. Good ban.

Fnatic’s 3rd ban: Enigma (a 3 or 4 position). Enigma brings push and teamfight, two things that Baguette already have a ton of. This is Fnatic saying that they don’t want Baguette’s teamfight and push to become overwhelming. Baguette also needed a 3 or 4 so this would have been a viable pickup for them. Additionally, black hole goes through bkb and pulls lanaya out of invis, both of which would be annoying to Fnatic.

Baguette’s 4th ban: Naix (position 1). Baguette knows that Fnatic still needs a position 1, and so bans the extremely popular naix pick. Naix could bring even more teamfight control to Fnatic through his open wounds, and is very mobile himself with rage activated. Baguette makes a good ban here.

Fnatic’s 4th ban: Tinker (position 2). Tinker would have been a 2 position that Baguette needed, bringing even more push and antipush, as well as split push. Not something Fnatic want to deal with, having a tinker push a lane while a lone druid takes their towers in the opposite lane.

Baguette’s 5th ban: Bounty Hunter (position 3). BH would have provided even more mobility to Fnatic through movement speed bonus from track as well as being a counter to the lone druid split pushing. A BH could have also fit into Fnatic’s lineup by offlaning, allowing an undying, SD, and position 1 trilane, not something anyone wants to go up against.

Fnatic’s 5th ban: Phantom Lancer (position 1). PL brings chaos to teamfights, as well as having a good escape mechanism, allowing him to survive and be a nuisance. He can also slow down the Radiant with his lance, decreasing their mobility. PL is also a great split pusher, something Fnatic wants to avoid, remember. I don’t think I understand this ban completely though, as these don’t seem like great reasons to use a ban, as I didn’t see PL fitting in too well with what Baguette were doing besides the split push aspect. Maybe that was the whole reason.


Now we’re going to enter the pick stage again, solidifying the team’s strategies, and revealing any final counters.

2nd Pick Phase
+ Show Spoiler +
Baguette’s 4th pick (use all remaining bonus time in deciding): Windrunner (a 3/4 hero). This fills the lower position of Baguette, now they only need a position 2. Windrunner has mobility to escape, as well as evasion against TA. She also can make big plays with her shackle, and has a decent push/antipush through her powershot. She is also very flexible with what lane she can go to.

Fnatic’s 4th pick: Invoker (a 2/3 position). An interesting choice, unexpected considering they already have a strong middle hero in TA, and really didn’t need another position 2 or 3 hero. Perhaps Undying will be support, meaning Fnatic only needs a position 1 now. Invoker brings stong antipush to their lineup, something they desperately needed, as well as boosting their teamfight control even more through tornado and EMP. I’m expecting to see a quas/wex invoker for the antipush.

Baguette’s 5th pick (uses entire time deciding, I’m guessing the invoker pick threw them off as it did to me): Weaver (last position left, position 1/2). Weaver is hard to lock down in teamfights, taking the edge of the mobility control of Fnatic. He is also flexible in laning, being able to offlane or short lane. His scarabs will be useful in taking down heroes as well as scouting.

Fnatic’s 5th pick (instantly picked): Meepo (position 1). Wow. Meepo in a competitive game. He provides lockdown/initiation with his nets, and counterpush with his poof.


Should definitely be an interesting game!

*****
It takes quite a long time of playing and watching a video game before you realize how bad at it you really are.
teapoted
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 09:24:33
January 11 2013 09:18 GMT
#2
Wisp is always banned against Fnatic because they play it constantly.

Overall there's far too much focus on 'positions' in the numbering system and not enough focus on laning. A lot of weird statements. LD is a weak 1? What does that even mean, LD is the strongest carry in many situations, and more successful than most other played as a hard carry currently.
Once you Goblak...
FractalsOnFire
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1756 Posts
January 11 2013 09:25 GMT
#3
Lone druid a weak 1 position? Really? I completely disagree with that assessment.
DrPandaPhD
Profile Joined November 2011
5188 Posts
January 11 2013 09:55 GMT
#4
Pretty sure Baguette had planned to 2carry turtle with LD and Weaver + KOTL. Think Fly also realized this because he banned Tinker. Almost impossible to push vs a KOTL / Tinker.

Meepo shines vs teams with few disables and little burst, which is what Baguette drafted. Think they were also inexperienced vs Meepo at that level N0tail plays him.

Also, Sillybear is not a weak hardcarry at all. The guy can use 12 slots, how could that be bad for a hard carry?

Plus I dont think there is much to read into the draft of Fnatic. I think most of them played what they wanted to play, rather than having a strong lineup. They already secured first place in their group so it wasn't an important match for them.
리노크 👑
StoRm_res
Profile Joined March 2011
Switzerland891 Posts
January 11 2013 14:42 GMT
#5
Had to watch that game after reading this blog =)

Awesome play by notail, amazing how he manages to multitask his 5 meepos
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
January 11 2013 18:22 GMT
#6
Great blog, I don't agree with everything but it was a good read !
Carbonyl
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 18:51:13
January 11 2013 18:49 GMT
#7
On January 11 2013 18:18 teapoted wrote:
Wisp is always banned against Fnatic because they play it constantly.

Overall there's far too much focus on 'positions' in the numbering system and not enough focus on laning. A lot of weird statements. LD is a weak 1? What does that even mean, LD is the strongest carry in many situations, and more successful than most other played as a hard carry currently.

On your first point, thanks for letting me know that! I'm not familiar enough with all the teams to know too many of the respect bans, or what strats each team likes to run. I can't keep them all organized in my head.

And on your second point, I do agree that I didn't really address laning enough. It was becoming really long though and my original in intent was kind of to look at the draft from the Chinese positioning system. If I were to be casting a game, I would definitely focus more on lanes than I would on positioning.

@FractalsOnFire and @teapoted

by LD being a weak 1, I think that's accurate if looking at the European scene. He's often shut down really hard and then proceeds to brings nothing to the team... (esp when things like wisp make it so he can't farm). I also see a ton of mistakes with control of the bear from some of the lesser teams right now, letting it die for no real good reason and stuff.
Chinese scene? Definitely one of the strongest 1s. obviously people like Burning make the hero seem amazing with their farm and gameplay.
It takes quite a long time of playing and watching a video game before you realize how bad at it you really are.
teapoted
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 19:01:22
January 11 2013 18:53 GMT
#8
And on your second point, I do agree that I didn't really address laning enough. It was becoming really long though and my original in intent was kind of to look at the draft from the Chinese positioning system. If I were to be casting a game, I would definitely focus more on lanes than I would on positioning.
The problem with that is that heroes are largely chosen because of laning and the potential you can bring from that, not farm priority. The Chinese system is just there for convenience in speaking and how to play rather than how to pick. You're more likely to say "we need a hero to fit in this trilane, we need a hero to safe-lane farm" then you are to say "we need a 2".
And by LD being a weak 1, I think that's accurate if looking at the European scene. He's often shut down really hard and brings nothing to the team... (esp when things like wisp make it so he can't farm). I also see a ton of mistakes with control of the bear from some of the lesser teams right now, letting it die for no real good reason and stuff.
Chinese scene? Definitely one of the strongest 1s. obviously people like Burning make the hero seem amazing with their farm and gameplay.
You could say this about all carries though. It doesn't change LD and the impact he generally has on the game.
Once you Goblak...
Carbonyl
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 19:02:35
January 11 2013 19:01 GMT
#9
On January 11 2013 18:55 DrPandaPhD wrote:
Pretty sure Baguette had planned to 2carry turtle with LD and Weaver + KOTL. Think Fly also realized this because he banned Tinker. Almost impossible to push vs a KOTL / Tinker.

Meepo shines vs teams with few disables and little burst, which is what Baguette drafted. Think they were also inexperienced vs Meepo at that level N0tail plays him.

Also, Sillybear is not a weak hardcarry at all. The guy can use 12 slots, how could that be bad for a hard carry?

Plus I dont think there is much to read into the draft of Fnatic. I think most of them played what they wanted to play, rather than having a strong lineup. They already secured first place in their group so it wasn't an important match for them.


You could be right about the turtle strategy too, although I think having a kotl kind of allows you to do that anyways, regardless of what your intention of picking him is. Tinker makes it almost impossible to break through though, and would have been great at bursting down meepos, so it ended up being a great ban from Fnatic.

Well I definitely agree that Fnatic probably wasn't taking the game as seriously as possible. But as someone pointed out, Meepo definitely was a great choice considering Baguette ended up having 0 non-ulti AOE stun spells. I think it worked out perfectly for Fnatic and that they might have not even been doing it for sure until they realized it would work great against Baguette's lineup.

As to the sylla bear comment, honestly I don't believe he's being played as a super strong 1 position by EU. He's used more as a pusher and lockdown. Of course he carries, and CAN carry. But when was the last time you saw and LD get more than a radiance+ac+vlads+basher? Usually it's more like a radiance, and starting an AC. Or maelstrom and not much else, cause you're losing really badly. Yes he's really strong at that point and is obviously a great carry. But it happens very seldomly. And those 12 slots are definitely never going to be filled in an average game, just takes too long with too much farm.
It takes quite a long time of playing and watching a video game before you realize how bad at it you really are.
teapoted
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom24425 Posts
January 11 2013 19:03 GMT
#10
But when was the last time you saw and LD get more than a radiance+ac+vlads+basher? Yes he's really strong at that point and is obviously a great carry. But it happens very seldomly. And those 12 slots are definitely never going to be filled in an average game, just takes too long with too much farm.
This is why you need to not be so obsessed with the numbers. He's still largely played as a hard-carry even though his methods aren't the same as a spectre.
Once you Goblak...
Carbonyl
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 19:13:15
January 11 2013 19:12 GMT
#11
On January 12 2013 04:03 teapoted wrote:
Show nested quote +
But when was the last time you saw and LD get more than a radiance+ac+vlads+basher? Yes he's really strong at that point and is obviously a great carry. But it happens very seldomly. And those 12 slots are definitely never going to be filled in an average game, just takes too long with too much farm.
This is why you need to not be so obsessed with the numbers. He's still largely played as a hard-carry even though his methods aren't the same as a spectre.

Well I mean, you're right. I guess I'm not talking about the true definition of a 1 when I talk about him being a weak 1, if we take 1 to simply mean highest farm priority. Because he does get that, so he's a 1.

Just right now in EU I don't think he's the best 1, at least when team aren't actively banning his counters (like wisp/bh). (which is more my opinion, which I suppose i shouldn't let color my commentary as much)
It takes quite a long time of playing and watching a video game before you realize how bad at it you really are.
galtdunn
Profile Joined March 2011
United States977 Posts
January 11 2013 21:39 GMT
#12
On January 11 2013 23:42 StoRm_res wrote:
Had to watch that game after reading this blog =)

Awesome play by notail, amazing how he manages to multitask his 5 meepos

Glad it made you interested!
And yeah notail is a beast. Apparently he was extremely good at the game he came over from (hon? or maybe LoL)
Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.
galtdunn
Profile Joined March 2011
United States977 Posts
January 11 2013 21:41 GMT
#13
On January 12 2013 03:22 MrCon wrote:
Great blog, I don't agree with everything but it was a good read !

Thanks! If I do another one I know it will be better. I just wanted to throw something together and put it out there to get some feedback and see if people took interest.

I love analysis much more than play-by-play type stuff (which is why Artosis+apollo are my fav sc2 casters), I'm just not very good at it yet.
Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 21:51:28
January 11 2013 21:50 GMT
#14
Although it was a good read and decent analysis in the end its simply a Western A tier team against a C tier(maybe not even that)team. You should try applying this kind of stuff to matches where one team does not vastly outclass the other.
WriterXiao8~~
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18918 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 22:03:00
January 11 2013 22:01 GMT
#15
Edit: Meh, nevermind.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
Carbonyl
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 22:30:16
January 11 2013 22:11 GMT
#16
On January 12 2013 06:50 Kipsate wrote:
Although it was a good read and decent analysis in the end its simply a Western A tier team against a C tier(maybe not even that)team. You should try applying this kind of stuff to matches where one team does not vastly outclass the other.

I'd be more than willing to do that if people would be interested.
However, I'd want to do it the same way I did this one, in that I don't know the outcome of the match or anything about it when I start. Otherwise it's too easy to be biased, cause I know what the teams are going for.
It takes quite a long time of playing and watching a video game before you realize how bad at it you really are.
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