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[STATS] KTFlash vs Jaedong OZ, Proleague Records

Blogs > Musoeun
Post a Reply
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-26 15:39:04
June 26 2009 15:17 GMT
#1
(The following post has been edited, per ZZangDreamJoy and konadora pointing out that it made me look stupid. Though more politely than that).

This started out as a stat analysis in the PR thread, until I finished up and realized... it's not actually relevant to the argument of who's the better player. In fact, it proves nothing. In fact, I ended up ignoring the only factors that do prove anything. So it's mainly a post about proleague rankings, with focus on, "Look, KT's coaching is stupid, and I have the stats to prove it."

Anyway, onwards:

On June 26 2009 16:30 Rostam wrote:
Throw in WL, including the playoffs where Jaedong obviously performed much better than Flash and you still get:

Jaedong: 58-20
Oz other than Jaedong: 72-81
Flash: 51-18
KT other than Flash: 71-97

You can argue all you want about who contributed more to their team, but I think it's pretty apparent that the difference between KT and Oz is not equal to the difference between Flash and Jaedong. People who think Jaedong is the only reason Oz is in first should take a trip back in time to round 1 and 2.


When comparing proleague records I'm inclined to discount those playoffs, not because I think it's irrelevant to the question of who's a better player, but because of the particular games. JD went 7-1 losing a cheese game. Flash went 0-2, losing a cheese game and to Jaedong. He basically didn't get a chance to show off. Tell me with a straight face that Flash, had he beaten Jaedong (which I am aware he didn't), would not have put an amount of pounding on JD's teammates at least equal to that handed out by skyhigh (although less spectacular because Flash is the ultimate turtle-and-push Terran)... yeah.

I'm also discounting those games for the far more important reason that they don't count towards regular season standings.

After doing that discount, the results look like this:

Jaedong: 51-19
Oz other than Jaedong: 72-78
Flash: 51-16
KT other than Flash: 67-92

One thing stands way out: KT's backups play - and lose - more games than OZ's. Now look at ace games:

OZ: 14 (10-4)
Jaedong: 13 (9-4)
KT: 15 (7-8)
Flash: 9 (5-4)

That's a 3.5-game difference right there for the teams. If you want to check out the non-ace record, we have:

OZ: 113-93
Jaedong: 42-15
OZ other than Jaedong: 71-78
----------------------------
KT: 111-100
Flash: 46-12
KT other than Flash: 65-88

KT has five extra games (and seven losses) in there, which account for: 1) the extra 1.5 behind OZ that aren't attributable to ace games, and 2) the lower seed into the WL playoffs where they lost an extra match.

The teams have been hot at at different times, but they're essentially identical: They're both 1 1/2 man teams: JD backed up by HiyA (or is it Lomo/BackHo now?) and Flash backed up by Luxury Violet. Everything else is merely for appearances. In fact, the only difference is coaching: KT apparently saves Flash for "special circumstances" and relies on the mooks to do normal work, even "normal" ace games. OZ is much more sensible and uses JD to auto-win if it goes to ace.

What does all that say to who's the better player? Well, nothing, actually... which is why this is now a blog post.

***
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
ZZangDreamjOy
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada959 Posts
June 26 2009 15:28 GMT
#2
Just putting this out there.
You can't discredit games just because one failed in playoffs where the other succeeded to a point.
And you can't take away games just because KTF was too dumb to put Flash in ace. --
HitEmUp
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66365 Posts
June 26 2009 15:32 GMT
#3
^speaks the truth
POGGERS
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
June 26 2009 15:35 GMT
#4
Ah, fail, I didn't make clear enough why this transmogrified into a blog-post. Lemme edit that in real quick... (that would be because yes, I ended up just looking at PL records which the WL playoffs didn't effect).
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
bioboyAT
Profile Joined July 2004
Austria1765 Posts
June 26 2009 15:36 GMT
#5
good work with the stats and everything, really like it
Milchmann | DeadVessel: Milchmann pwns. I fail.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66365 Posts
June 26 2009 15:44 GMT
#6
Hwaseung coach is smarter than KT coach
POGGERS
theonemephisto
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States409 Posts
June 26 2009 16:07 GMT
#7
On June 27 2009 00:44 konadora wrote:
Hwaseung coach is smarter than KT coach

It's not really that he's smarter; more like he isn't retarded. It doesn't take intelligence to put out your far and away best player in ace as much as possible.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
June 26 2009 16:12 GMT
#8
JD 9-4 in ACE
Flash 5-4
:D
Jaedong
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13922 Posts
June 26 2009 16:25 GMT
#9
gogo jaedong
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
Trezeguet
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States2656 Posts
June 26 2009 16:47 GMT
#10
On June 27 2009 00:36 bioboyAT wrote:
good work with the stats and everything, really like it

I just wanted to say that I really love the work you did for that Project Wonderful Ad.
anch
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States5457 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-26 17:36:33
June 26 2009 17:35 GMT
#11
On June 27 2009 00:44 konadora wrote:
Hwaseung coach is smarter than KT coach

yes, always put the ace in spot 1,2,3, to prevent 0-3.

and for fucks sake, dont send in slump players (lux, forgg)
One thing stands way out: KT's backups play - and lose - more games than OZ's. Now look at ace games:

OZ: 14 (10-4)
Jaedong: 13 (9-4)
KT: 15 (7-8)
Flash: 9 (5-4)
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
June 26 2009 18:25 GMT
#12
On June 27 2009 00:36 bioboyAT wrote:
good work with the stats and everything, really like it

I hear you rock...is it true?!?!?
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
June 26 2009 18:27 GMT
#13
On June 27 2009 02:35 anch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2009 00:44 konadora wrote:
Hwaseung coach is smarter than KT coach

yes, always put the ace in spot 1,2,3, to prevent 0-3.

and for fucks sake, dont send in slump players (lux, forgg)
Show nested quote +
One thing stands way out: KT's backups play - and lose - more games than OZ's. Now look at ace games:

OZ: 14 (10-4)
Jaedong: 13 (9-4)
KT: 15 (7-8)
Flash: 9 (5-4)

So you're suggesting that KT not use their second and third best players?

Wow...

Good thing you're not a coach.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-26 18:53:59
June 26 2009 18:53 GMT
#14
Lux and Forgg are not better than Violet. Not even arguable.

On June 27 2009 03:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2009 00:36 bioboyAT wrote:
good work with the stats and everything, really like it

I hear you rock...is it true?!?!?

Jaedong
Pakje
Profile Joined March 2009
Belgium288 Posts
June 26 2009 19:07 GMT
#15
what are you trying to prove again? (OP)
indecision
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Germany818 Posts
June 26 2009 21:04 GMT
#16
On June 27 2009 04:07 Pakje wrote:
what are you trying to prove again? (OP)


ya I kinda missed the point of all those numbers too
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
June 26 2009 21:16 GMT
#17
On June 27 2009 01:07 theonemephisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2009 00:44 konadora wrote:
Hwaseung coach is smarter than KT coach

It's not really that he's smarter; more like he isn't retarded. It doesn't take intelligence to put out your far and away best player in ace as much as possible.


You can't say these things without knowing the whole story. What if Flash said that he thought he wouldn't win, what if he then put someone who said "I'm very confident I can win this against that guy".

You're just flaming.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
June 26 2009 21:37 GMT
#18
On June 27 2009 06:04 indecision wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2009 04:07 Pakje wrote:
what are you trying to prove again? (OP)


ya I kinda missed the point of all those numbers too

"In fact, it proves nothing. In fact, I ended up ignoring the only factors that do prove anything. So it's mainly a post about proleague rankings, with focus on, "Look, KT's coaching is stupid, and I have the stats to prove it.""
Jaedong
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