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[Math Puzzle] Day[9]

Blogs > evanthebouncy!
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-10 01:26:43
May 10 2009 00:40 GMT
#1
edit: I'm SO happy that a lot of you are trying it, keep it up!
I will be taking finals in the next 2 weeks so the updates will be slow, if any.
I'm also trying to solve 2 very interesting puzzles, once I grasped a gist of them I will share those with you <3

Last day's puzzle was first solved by LTT, GJ!
+ Show Spoiler [solution] +

a b go through 2 min
a come back 1 min
c d go through 10 min
b come back 2 min
a b go through 2 min
total 17 minutes.

Hardest part, I think, is most people probably have the idea of 5 min and 10 min should go together, but the set-up for that to happen tripped them up.


Today's puzzle is this:
You're standing on the integer number line at point 0. (The integer number line looks like ... -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4...)
You have a precision laser gun that you can choose to shoot at any point on the number line once per second, eradicating all life forms on that precise point.

While happily chilling out at point 0 at second 0, an invisible flea has bit you and begins to jump away with an unknown constant speed of a natural number, {1, 2, 3, ...}, in either positive and negative direction.
+ Show Spoiler [for example] +

suppose the flea has a speed of 5 and jumps in the negative direction, the flea will start at pt 0 at second 0, lands on pt -5 on time 1, and land on pt -10 at time 2, and so on.
The flea has a fixed velocity(speed and direction), it does not change. But you just don't know what the velocity is.


Your quest:
Start firing your laser at second 1, how do you devise a strategy such that you will eventually kill the flea? (Suppose the flea does not stay invisible once you've killed it).

Extra:
Again, keep answers in spoilers, and please at least post one of your own solutions before looking at the spoilers if you are trying to get anything out of these blogs.
clarifications will be added as necessary.

Clarifications:
GL hf!

Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
deconduo
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Ireland4122 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-10 01:02:46
May 10 2009 00:48 GMT
#2
+ Show Spoiler +
I'd say you would start with 1, then -2, then 4, then -8 and so on. That way no matter what speed or direction it goes in you'll eventually kill it.

EDIT: Realised that this doesn't work after 3 steps. It has to be 1, 6, 15, 28, on the positive side, and -2, -8, -18 on the negative. So 1, -2, 6, -8, 15, -18, 28, etc.

Also, shadowdrg got there before me.
ShadowDrgn
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2497 Posts
May 10 2009 00:52 GMT
#3
+ Show Spoiler +
For positive integers only, you'd want to zap at t^2 where t = time in seconds. So you'd shoot at 1, 4, 9, 16, etc. With the negatives at play, there's the problem of "missing" the flea by shooting at +4 when he's at -4 so you need to shoot at both possibilities.

1, -2, 6, -8, 15, -18, etc.

I'll edit this if I can figure out an expression for that really fast, otherwise screw it.
Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that’s the end of you.
aznmathfreak
Profile Joined March 2009
United States148 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-10 01:02:29
May 10 2009 00:56 GMT
#4
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's say that the flea is traveling at the speed of x. On turn one, it can either be at x or -x depending on which direction it chose to travel in. On turn two, it can be at 2x or -2x. Since we don't know x, but we do know that its domain is the natural number, we can take turns shooting at each one of those natural number. IE, one turn one, let's guess that x is 1 in the positive direction, and since it's turn one, it would have gone 1x1 in the positive direction. Second turn, let's change our assumptions and guess that x is still 1 but in the negative direction. Since it's now turn two, we will have to fire 2x1 in the negative direction, or -2. With this method, you will eventually reach x high enough that you have guessed what was the speed of the flea, therefore hitting him/it.

Edit: ShadowDrgn's got it, the expression is on turn n, you shoot at (-1)^(n+1) x ceiling of (n/2) x n
ShadowDrgn
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2497 Posts
May 10 2009 01:07 GMT
#5
On May 10 2009 09:56 aznmathfreak wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's say that the flea is traveling at the speed of x. On turn one, it can either be at x or -x depending on which direction it chose to travel in. On turn two, it can be at 2x or -2x. Since we don't know x, but we do know that its domain is the natural number, we can take turns shooting at each one of those natural number. IE, one turn one, let's guess that x is 1 in the positive direction, and since it's turn one, it would have gone 1x1 in the positive direction. Second turn, let's change our assumptions and guess that x is still 1 but in the negative direction. Since it's now turn two, we will have to fire 2x1 in the negative direction, or -2. With this method, you will eventually reach x high enough that you have guessed what was the speed of the flea, therefore hitting him/it.

Edit: ShadowDrgn's got it, the expression is on turn n, you shoot at (-1)^(n+1) x ceiling of (n/2) x n


+ Show Spoiler +
That works. I didn't think of using the ceiling function, but it's a lot cleaner than the mess I was putting together. Your pre-edit version shot at -1, 2, -6, etc. but that worked just as well.

Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that’s the end of you.
aznmathfreak
Profile Joined March 2009
United States148 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-10 01:08:22
May 10 2009 01:08 GMT
#6
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 10 2009 10:07 ShadowDrgn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2009 09:56 aznmathfreak wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's say that the flea is traveling at the speed of x. On turn one, it can either be at x or -x depending on which direction it chose to travel in. On turn two, it can be at 2x or -2x. Since we don't know x, but we do know that its domain is the natural number, we can take turns shooting at each one of those natural number. IE, one turn one, let's guess that x is 1 in the positive direction, and since it's turn one, it would have gone 1x1 in the positive direction. Second turn, let's change our assumptions and guess that x is still 1 but in the negative direction. Since it's now turn two, we will have to fire 2x1 in the negative direction, or -2. With this method, you will eventually reach x high enough that you have guessed what was the speed of the flea, therefore hitting him/it.

Edit: ShadowDrgn's got it, the expression is on turn n, you shoot at (-1)^(n+1) x ceiling of (n/2) x n


+ Show Spoiler +
That works. I didn't think of using the ceiling function, but it's a lot cleaner than the mess I was putting together. Your pre-edit version shot at -1, 2, -6, etc. but that worked just as well.



Haha, yeah same thing since the line's symmetrical.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25979 Posts
May 10 2009 01:15 GMT
#7
Wow you guys are smart lolol. I read the question and had no idea at all.
Moderator
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
May 10 2009 01:16 GMT
#8
+ Show Spoiler +
|Distance/turn| = x
turn number = y

you shoot at x*y, - x*y alternatively with x = {1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6... n-1,n-1,n,n}, where n is such that n/(yx) = 1.
Peace~
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
May 10 2009 01:20 GMT
#9
Am I the only one that noticed "Day[9]"?
And I hate how TL is so smart =\...
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-10 01:24:50
May 10 2009 01:22 GMT
#10
+ Show Spoiler +

This is a direct result of the integers being countable.
Take any sequence of counting the integers, A[t], and multiply by t. B[t]=t*A[t] will work. Should work for any other countable system with (integral) scalar multiplication.
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
May 10 2009 01:23 GMT
#11
It seems impossible. + Show Spoiler +
If it could be going at any constant speed that means at second 1 it could have travelled 5 points or 100 or 1064 or anything, and it could be anywhere on an infinitely long number line. Forgetting the fact that how many times or how fast you can shoot your laser isn't even strictly defined.. I'll just assume that you can shoot once every second for as long as it takes. The flea would have an infinite number of potential locations at any given second. How can you come up with a pattern to definitively shoot that? In fact, i don't even think it matters how many times you can shoot or how often.
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
Abydos1
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States832 Posts
May 10 2009 01:36 GMT
#12
On May 10 2009 10:23 zobz wrote:
It seems impossible. + Show Spoiler +
If it could be going at any constant speed that means at second 1 it could have travelled 5 points or 100 or 1064 or anything, and it could be anywhere on an infinitely long number line. Forgetting the fact that how many times or how fast you can shoot your laser isn't even strictly defined.. I'll just assume that you can shoot once every second for as long as it takes. The flea would have an infinite number of potential locations at any given second. How can you come up with a pattern to definitively shoot that? In fact, i don't even think it matters how many times you can shoot or how often.


All you have to be able to do is cover each of his possible speeds in an infinite amount of time

+ Show Spoiler +
As has been posted, alternate between positive and negative speeds starting from 1 and going up and shoot where he would be with that speed at that time. P(t) = t * S, where P(t) is position at time t and S is his speed. Then you just keep shooting using t = {1, 2, 3, ...} and S = {1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...} or any other sequence that covers all integer values.
"...perhaps the greatest joy possible in Starcraft, being accused of being a maphacker" - Day[9]
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
May 10 2009 02:09 GMT
#13
On May 10 2009 10:36 Abydos1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2009 10:23 zobz wrote:
It seems impossible. + Show Spoiler +
If it could be going at any constant speed that means at second 1 it could have travelled 5 points or 100 or 1064 or anything, and it could be anywhere on an infinitely long number line. Forgetting the fact that how many times or how fast you can shoot your laser isn't even strictly defined.. I'll just assume that you can shoot once every second for as long as it takes. The flea would have an infinite number of potential locations at any given second. How can you come up with a pattern to definitively shoot that? In fact, i don't even think it matters how many times you can shoot or how often.


All you have to be able to do is cover each of his possible speeds in an infinite amount of time

+ Show Spoiler +
As has been posted, alternate between positive and negative speeds starting from 1 and going up and shoot where he would be with that speed at that time. P(t) = t * S, where P(t) is position at time t and S is his speed. Then you just keep shooting using t = {1, 2, 3, ...} and S = {1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...} or any other sequence that covers all integer values.

Yeah that makes sense now that i think about. My apologies for erroneously suggesting your problem was flawed, etb.
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-10 02:40:36
May 10 2009 02:38 GMT
#14
+ Show Spoiler +

at time t, if t is prime, shoot -t^2.
at time t, if t is the square of a prime, shoot t^3


+ Show Spoiler +

ugh, that only works if his speed is prime.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
May 10 2009 02:42 GMT
#15
On May 10 2009 09:56 aznmathfreak wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's say that the flea is traveling at the speed of x. On turn one, it can either be at x or -x depending on which direction it chose to travel in. On turn two, it can be at 2x or -2x. Since we don't know x, but we do know that its domain is the natural number, we can take turns shooting at each one of those natural number. IE, one turn one, let's guess that x is 1 in the positive direction, and since it's turn one, it would have gone 1x1 in the positive direction. Second turn, let's change our assumptions and guess that x is still 1 but in the negative direction. Since it's now turn two, we will have to fire 2x1 in the negative direction, or -2. With this method, you will eventually reach x high enough that you have guessed what was the speed of the flea, therefore hitting him/it.

Edit: ShadowDrgn's got it, the expression is on turn n, you shoot at (-1)^(n+1) x ceiling of (n/2) x n

This solution is the easiest to comprehend.
Jaedong
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10827 Posts
May 10 2009 02:43 GMT
#16
On May 10 2009 10:15 Chill wrote:
Wow you guys are smart lolol. I read the question and had no idea at all.

wait, aren't you an engineer lol
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
May 10 2009 02:51 GMT
#17
On May 10 2009 11:43 LosingID8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2009 10:15 Chill wrote:
Wow you guys are smart lolol. I read the question and had no idea at all.

wait, aren't you an engineer lol

I'm an engineer, this stuff is hard to do as fast as tl.net as a whole is able to figure it out
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
May 10 2009 03:04 GMT
#18
Very easy.
+ Show Spoiler +

Definition: natural numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, ....
integers are natural numbers, 0, and the negatives of the natural numbers.
iterations of a set is a bijective function between this set and the natural numbers (if possible).


Let t be a natural number that represents time, and let S(t) be an iteration of the integers. Then we can define a new function that tells us where to fire at time t, we can call this function F:

F(t) = t * S(t)

We claim that if we follow F(t) as our firing scheme we will eventually hit this flee. To prove this, fix the speed of the flee, call it n (n is an integer). Then at time t the flee will be at position nt. Since S(t) is an iteration of integers, there exists t_0 such that n(t_0)=F(t_0). This completes the proof.
:]
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25979 Posts
May 10 2009 03:17 GMT
#19
On May 10 2009 11:43 LosingID8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2009 10:15 Chill wrote:
Wow you guys are smart lolol. I read the question and had no idea at all.

wait, aren't you an engineer lol

Sure, but that doesn't help me with math problems like these.
Moderator
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10827 Posts
May 10 2009 03:31 GMT
#20
On May 10 2009 12:17 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2009 11:43 LosingID8 wrote:
On May 10 2009 10:15 Chill wrote:
Wow you guys are smart lolol. I read the question and had no idea at all.

wait, aren't you an engineer lol

Sure, but that doesn't help me with math problems like these.

true true, i just assume all engineers are super good at all kinds of math
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
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