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How will obama help the economy.

Blogs > Clasic
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Clasic
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
April 26 2009 23:07 GMT
#1
What exactly is the stimulus going to? When are we going to get that free health care? Was he only talking but not doing shit?

*
No no no no its not mine!
chobopeon
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States7342 Posts
April 26 2009 23:09 GMT
#2
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79544

not that this isnt something that ought to be discussed all the time - it is - just saying, might wanna check out that thread.
:O
Frits
Profile Joined March 2003
11782 Posts
April 26 2009 23:13 GMT
#3
what the fuck he promised us change and he LIED ARAGGUGUGHJHJAHAAHAAGGHHHH
Disintegrate
Profile Joined April 2009
United States182 Posts
April 26 2009 23:15 GMT
#4
Get used it. Politicians always lie.

OBAMA IS NO MESSIAH!
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
April 26 2009 23:15 GMT
#5
OMG A POLITICIAN BROKE A PROMISE

WE MUST BURN WASHINGTON TO THE GROUND
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Xusneb
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada612 Posts
April 26 2009 23:17 GMT
#6
He's just a man. At least he's trying. Lol, gl with getting free health care during a recession. And some trillion dollar debt or whatever adfadfadsf.
If you want to be happy, be. - Leo Tolstoy
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
April 26 2009 23:17 GMT
#7
On April 27 2009 08:07 Clasic wrote:
What exactly is the stimulus going to? When are we going to get that free health care? Was he only talking but not doing shit?

Our political system takes a very very long time.

Its really hard to make any meaningful change. Most of the time it's a good thing, because it prevents any one president's administration from fucking too much up.

But it also makes positive change difficult as well.

So far, Obama has sincerely gone after his agenda and it appears he really does want to get it done while he's fresh in office(and therefore has more support...almost all presidencies follow this pattern...popular at first, and it goes down slowly as the presidency goes on). So I expect him to follow through. Don't know if he can get his legistlation passed, but he does seem to be trying.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
il0seonpurpose
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Korea (South)5638 Posts
April 26 2009 23:18 GMT
#8
Why do so many people oppose the stimulus package?
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
April 26 2009 23:20 GMT
#9
He hasn't lied about anything yet.

Incredibly remarkable actually. To the op: If you want the details on the stimulus package, try a little research. You can find out exactly what's in it.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
April 26 2009 23:20 GMT
#10
On April 27 2009 08:18 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Why do so many people oppose the stimulus package?


Because of inflation and a waste of tax payer money.
Railxp
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Hong Kong1313 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-26 23:24:41
April 26 2009 23:23 GMT
#11
ZOMG WTF I THOUGHT HE WAS BLACK JESUS HERE TO GROW MUNEES FOR US >=(


Will stimulus package save economy? History might have the answer.
Article Below:
+ Show Spoiler +
FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate
By
Meg Sullivan
| 8/10/2004 12:23:12 PM

Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.

"Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump," said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA's Department of Economics. "We found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies."

In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

"President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services," said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. "So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies."

Using data collected in 1929 by the Conference Board and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Cole and Ohanian were able to establish average wages and prices across a range of industries just prior to the Depression. By adjusting for annual increases in productivity, they were able to use the 1929 benchmark to figure out what prices and wages would have been during every year of the Depression had Roosevelt's policies not gone into effect. They then compared those figures with actual prices and wages as reflected in the Conference Board data.

In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.

Meanwhile, prices across 19 industries averaged 23 percent above where they should have been, given the state of the economy. With goods and services that much harder for consumers to afford, demand stalled and the gross national product floundered at 27 percent below where it otherwise might have been.

"High wages and high prices in an economic slump run contrary to everything we know about market forces in economic downturns," Ohanian said. "As we've seen in the past several years, salaries and prices fall when unemployment is high. By artificially inflating both, the New Deal policies short-circuited the market's self-correcting forces."

The policies were contained in the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), which exempted industries from antitrust prosecution if they agreed to enter into collective bargaining agreements that significantly raised wages. Because protection from antitrust prosecution all but ensured higher prices for goods and services, a wide range of industries took the bait, Cole and Ohanian found. By 1934 more than 500 industries, which accounted for nearly 80 percent of private, non-agricultural employment, had entered into the collective bargaining agreements called for under NIRA.

Cole and Ohanian calculate that NIRA and its aftermath account for 60 percent of the weak recovery. Without the policies, they contend that the Depression would have ended in 1936 instead of the year when they believe the slump actually ended: 1943.

Roosevelt's role in lifting the nation out of the Great Depression has been so revered that Time magazine readers cited it in 1999 when naming him the 20th century's second-most influential figure.

"This is exciting and valuable research," said Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. "The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can't understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won't happen again?"

NIRA's role in prolonging the Depression has not been more closely scrutinized because the Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional within two years of its passage.

"Historians have assumed that the policies didn't have an impact because they were too short-lived, but the proof is in the pudding," Ohanian said. "We show that they really did artificially inflate wages and prices."

Even after being deemed unconstitutional, Roosevelt's anti-competition policies persisted — albeit under a different guise, the scholars found. Ohanian and Cole painstakingly documented the extent to which the Roosevelt administration looked the other way as industries once protected by NIRA continued to engage in price-fixing practices for four more years.

The number of antitrust cases brought by the Department of Justice fell from an average of 12.5 cases per year during the 1920s to an average of 6.5 cases per year from 1935 to 1938, the scholars found. Collusion had become so widespread that one Department of Interior official complained of receiving identical bids from a protected industry (steel) on 257 different occasions between mid-1935 and mid-1936. The bids were not only identical but also 50 percent higher than foreign steel prices. Without competition, wholesale prices remained inflated, averaging 14 percent higher than they would have been without the troublesome practices, the UCLA economists calculate.

NIRA's labor provisions, meanwhile, were strengthened in the National Relations Act, signed into law in 1935. As union membership doubled, so did labor's bargaining power, rising from 14 million strike days in 1936 to about 28 million in 1937. By 1939 wages in protected industries remained 24 percent to 33 percent above where they should have been, based on 1929 figures, Cole and Ohanian calculate. Unemployment persisted. By 1939 the U.S. unemployment rate was 17.2 percent, down somewhat from its 1933 peak of 24.9 percent but still remarkably high. By comparison, in May 2003, the unemployment rate of 6.1 percent was the highest in nine years.

Recovery came only after the Department of Justice dramatically stepped enforcement of antitrust cases nearly four-fold and organized labor suffered a string of setbacks, the economists found.

"The fact that the Depression dragged on for years convinced generations of economists and policy-makers that capitalism could not be trusted to recover from depressions and that significant government intervention was required to achieve good outcomes," Cole said. "Ironically, our work shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened."

source: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx
~\(。◕‿‿◕。)/~,,,,,,,,>
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
April 26 2009 23:36 GMT
#12
NEWS AT 11
Hayekian economists think Keynsian policies don't work!
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
only_human89
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States212 Posts
April 26 2009 23:40 GMT
#13
obama sux, the stimulus will add more debt. you guys better go to school and get a good job because get ready to pay taxes out of your ass. that's if you can even keep your job
"You're a pathetic, jerk, loser, and I wouldn't kiss you if I had brain cancer and your lips were the cure" LOOOOL
OreoBoi
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada1639 Posts
April 26 2009 23:42 GMT
#14
In the words of College humor:
RON PAUL 2012!!!
KaasZerg
Profile Joined November 2005
Netherlands927 Posts
April 26 2009 23:55 GMT
#15
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.
only_human89
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States212 Posts
April 27 2009 01:20 GMT
#16
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.
"You're a pathetic, jerk, loser, and I wouldn't kiss you if I had brain cancer and your lips were the cure" LOOOOL
SayaSP
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Laos5494 Posts
April 27 2009 02:19 GMT
#17
change clothes imo
[iHs]SSP | I-NO-KI BOM-BA-YE | のヮの http://tinyurl.com/MLIStheCV , MLIS.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
April 27 2009 02:19 GMT
#18
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11554 Posts
April 27 2009 02:30 GMT
#19
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


wouldn't voting for an anarchist be oxymoronic
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-27 03:58:12
April 27 2009 03:02 GMT
#20
On April 27 2009 11:30 FragKrag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


wouldn't voting for an anarchist be oxymoronic

As opposed to voting for Ron Paul, which is just moronic.

I don't understand why people think it's individuals who are causing good/bad things to happen in government. It's the structures of our institutions that shape most of what goes on. Putting Ron Paul in office isn't going to change the interest group penetration in Congress or remove us from Iraq. If for some reason he actually won, he would get very little done.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
only_human89
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States212 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-27 04:47:02
April 27 2009 04:43 GMT
#21
On April 27 2009 12:02 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 11:30 FragKrag wrote:
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


wouldn't voting for an anarchist be oxymoronic

As opposed to voting for Ron Paul, which is just moronic.

I don't understand why people think it's individuals who are causing good/bad things to happen in government. It's the structures of our institutions that shape most of what goes on. Putting Ron Paul in office isn't going to change the interest group penetration in Congress or remove us from Iraq. If for some reason he actually won, he would get very little done.


yeah thats the lazy response. lets just let government take over the country and do nothing about it, there's nothing we can do!. it's like saying "i don't like government involvement either, but they are involved so w/e." but i agree its the people that need to take back the country not one man alone.
"You're a pathetic, jerk, loser, and I wouldn't kiss you if I had brain cancer and your lips were the cure" LOOOOL
only_human89
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States212 Posts
April 27 2009 04:45 GMT
#22
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


why would i be anarchist? i just want the federal government out of the picture and for the states to have more freedom to decide what's best for them. not everybody has the same beliefs. to have the fed's say "this is how it's going to be done for everyone rather you like it or not" is bull shit.
"You're a pathetic, jerk, loser, and I wouldn't kiss you if I had brain cancer and your lips were the cure" LOOOOL
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-27 05:55:38
April 27 2009 05:42 GMT
#23
On April 27 2009 13:43 only_human89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 12:02 Jibba wrote:
On April 27 2009 11:30 FragKrag wrote:
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


wouldn't voting for an anarchist be oxymoronic

As opposed to voting for Ron Paul, which is just moronic.

I don't understand why people think it's individuals who are causing good/bad things to happen in government. It's the structures of our institutions that shape most of what goes on. Putting Ron Paul in office isn't going to change the interest group penetration in Congress or remove us from Iraq. If for some reason he actually won, he would get very little done.


yeah thats the lazy response. lets just let government take over the country and do nothing about it, there's nothing we can do!. it's like saying "i don't like government involvement either, but they are involved so w/e." but i agree its the people that need to take back the country not one man alone.

It's not lazy, it's accurate. I understand the problems of a significant federal government and I think they're still outweighed by the problems of a weak central government. I know I'm not going to change your mind about that since you've probably already read everything Ron Paul (and probably none of Hayek, interestingly) has ever written, but you should at least understand what is feasible and what isn't. You have to play by the rules of the organization or you don't get shit done, and those rules dictate the change you're looking for isn't possible.

Even Ron Paul plays by those rules to some extent (hint: check his voting record, he's a Republican, not an independent.) And what happens when he doesn't follow the rules, when he mouths off as if he's an expert? He gets 0 chair positions. And he gets put on House Financial Service instead of Ways and Means or Budget. And he gets put on House Foreign Services instead of Armed Services or Homeland Security. Nancy Pelosi owns his ass, and she's nice enough to let him enter the Capital Building.

Ron Paul is a nobody, except on the internet, where people don't bother to study actual economics or politics before they write about it. What you're proposing does not require him to win, it requires two or three consecutive Congressional elections where similar candidates also win, in order to make a truly anti-Federalist platform possible.

If you truly want to support the libertarian cause, you'd find and support other congressional candidates with similar view, rather than putting all your faith behind a single, insignificant figurehead.

EDIT: And yes, I believe Pelosi could actually have him physically prevented from entering the chambers if she wanted to.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
only_human89
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States212 Posts
April 27 2009 16:40 GMT
#24
On April 27 2009 14:42 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 13:43 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 12:02 Jibba wrote:
On April 27 2009 11:30 FragKrag wrote:
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


wouldn't voting for an anarchist be oxymoronic

As opposed to voting for Ron Paul, which is just moronic.

I don't understand why people think it's individuals who are causing good/bad things to happen in government. It's the structures of our institutions that shape most of what goes on. Putting Ron Paul in office isn't going to change the interest group penetration in Congress or remove us from Iraq. If for some reason he actually won, he would get very little done.


yeah thats the lazy response. lets just let government take over the country and do nothing about it, there's nothing we can do!. it's like saying "i don't like government involvement either, but they are involved so w/e." but i agree its the people that need to take back the country not one man alone.

It's not lazy, it's accurate. I understand the problems of a significant federal government and I think they're still outweighed by the problems of a weak central government. I know I'm not going to change your mind about that since you've probably already read everything Ron Paul (and probably none of Hayek, interestingly) has ever written, but you should at least understand what is feasible and what isn't. You have to play by the rules of the organization or you don't get shit done, and those rules dictate the change you're looking for isn't possible.

Even Ron Paul plays by those rules to some extent (hint: check his voting record, he's a Republican, not an independent.) And what happens when he doesn't follow the rules, when he mouths off as if he's an expert? He gets 0 chair positions. And he gets put on House Financial Service instead of Ways and Means or Budget. And he gets put on House Foreign Services instead of Armed Services or Homeland Security. Nancy Pelosi owns his ass, and she's nice enough to let him enter the Capital Building.

Ron Paul is a nobody, except on the internet, where people don't bother to study actual economics or politics before they write about it. What you're proposing does not require him to win, it requires two or three consecutive Congressional elections where similar candidates also win, in order to make a truly anti-Federalist platform possible.

If you truly want to support the libertarian cause, you'd find and support other congressional candidates with similar view, rather than putting all your faith behind a single, insignificant figurehead.

EDIT: And yes, I believe Pelosi could actually have him physically prevented from entering the chambers if she wanted to.


Well it's not about putting all my faith into one guy. Educating the American people and sharing my beliefs is more important. But I tell you right now if the dollar crashes the government will have no where to run and hide. In fact it probably would be a good thing. People will finally realize all this government regulation hasn't helped us. If it doesn't crash are kids will sure be pissed off becase they are the ones that the burdon will be left on.
"You're a pathetic, jerk, loser, and I wouldn't kiss you if I had brain cancer and your lips were the cure" LOOOOL
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
April 27 2009 17:45 GMT
#25
On April 27 2009 13:45 only_human89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


why would i be anarchist?


because "more government = less freedom every time"

i just want the federal government out of the picture and for the states to have more freedom to decide what's best for them. not everybody has the same beliefs. to have the fed's say "this is how it's going to be done for everyone rather you like it or not" is bull shit.


You want states to have more freedom?

silly collectivist
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
gchan
Profile Joined October 2007
United States654 Posts
April 27 2009 19:07 GMT
#26
On April 27 2009 12:02 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2009 11:30 FragKrag wrote:
On April 27 2009 11:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On April 27 2009 10:20 only_human89 wrote:
On April 27 2009 08:55 KaasZerg wrote:
He can solve a economic crisis that was in the making for 10-15 years in a day. Government can spent money in more usefull ways then another douche buying another SUV. So pay your taxes (;.Keeping the goverment small is overrated.


It isn't overated in the slightest. More government = less freedom every time. RON PAUL 2012 BITCHES.


If more government equals less freedom "every time" then why are you shouting your support for a small federal government guy rather than an anarchist?


wouldn't voting for an anarchist be oxymoronic

As opposed to voting for Ron Paul, which is just moronic.



That response is full of win. Nice comeback.
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
April 27 2009 22:09 GMT
#27
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=92107
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
deathgod6
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States5064 Posts
April 30 2009 02:04 GMT
#28
When is that free healthcare coming?!

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!
4.0 GPA = A rank 5.0 GPA = Olympic --------- Bisu, Best, Fantasy. i ♥ oov. They can get in my BoxeR anyday.
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