PvT@Python Apm:266 Eapm:164 This is an fpvod showing how to execute a reaver harass for PvT. Another lowerish game.I'm never going to have anything gosu probably =(
Some things to note when you want to use this build for PvT. -Don't use reavers when you're cross positions from the Terran on a 4 player map because of the longer distance to travel. Also terran usually has turrets up and your reaver is useless. If you try to harass with your reaver and get a lucky scarab while sacrificing the shuttle, any decent terran can build up a very sizeable force and a-move over you(about 5-8 tanks and a couple vults) -Its better to keep your shuttle and reaver alive than to waste it so keep it alive at all costs. The longer it is alive, the longer it can harass and it is a big help for when Protoss takes the offensive.
Going for reavers is a fairly risky build in PvT because if you lose your reaver, its gg. You lost if you lost your reaver too early because any decent terran player can push out before you take you third or even while your other gates are going up and just completely dominate you because of how much you invested with the reaver. You CAN lose your reaver though but make sure its after you have gotten your economy going or have added some more gates My reaver build in this fpvod is what a typical reaver build would look like. There are some variables though. I put down a second gate because the Terran player had 3 scv's on gas(more agressive(2 fac, drop tech), and there were a decent group of marines(indicating no siege expand. The only options left were a FD terran push or a push from 2 facs. I unfortunately scouted a command center building after my second gate had gone down so it was too late. In any other situation with terran not being agressive and sticking with a standard fast expand, the build order is 8/9 Pylon 10/17 Gateway 12/17 Asim 14/17 Cyber core 15/17 Pylon 17/25 Dragoon Make range and then another dragoon 24/25 Pylon 27/33 Robo bay(Make sure you put the robo bay down as soon as the scouting scv is dead)* Pylon Shuttle Robo bay reaver pylon expand** *You CAN put down the robo bay at a quicker time but make sure that the scv is dead. Scouting is everything because if the terran scouts your early robo bay, then they can completely neutralize your build. **Send a probe to expand as soon as the reaver is starting to be built. Then expand while you reaver harass. Then depending on the situation, you should add 1-2 gates and then expand again for the double expo. My gameplan against the terran player was to outmacro him. I played a fairly easy game with alot of macro involved. If you are confident in your macro, then you can play this way but if you have trouble taking expansions, how many gates should go down and breaking terran campers, then you should just tech to carriers or arbiters depending on the map and how much damage the reaver did. You can't expect the reavers to win the day for you all the time. They are merely a form of early harassment and only put you ahead if your willing to take the risk
You lost your reaver and shuttle really early while only getting 3-4 scvs. If this Terran was good at all then he would've pushed (as you said above) and made you pay but he just did nothing and let you expo and get a macro advantage.
All in all, this Terran is not very good at all and any decent Terran would've either pushed you and got to your natural with a very fast push or would've took an early 3rd because you can't really prevent it.
1 gate reaver is not worse vs 2 fac, in fact it might be better vs 2 fac than some fd pushes since reaver will be out before his attack and you can scout through the path to his base with the shuttle to see if you should defend or not. And that shuttle micro was just hilariously bad... first you dropped the reaver instead of the dragoon (lucky it didnt die instantly LOL) and then ran the shuttle straight up into a BADLY placed turret. I'm sorry but god that was just silly... vs decent terrans a build with that late timing with 2 gate will only serve to gain mapcontrol since he'll most likely have well placed turrets around his base - especially on a map like python where you can cover a main drop easily with 3-4 turrets...
And I don't agree with reaver builds being risky. Depening on the build it's usually the safest way to open on most maps. The only problem is if he scouts it and gets a wraith to nullify the reaver usage completely (and you have no goons nearby). Other than that, it defends vs any terran opening and will only put you slightly behind if he does an economical exp build with you inflicting no damage. Of course losing the reaver is fatal, but like with any build - if you can't execute it properly you should not expect to win using it. It's like going 2 gate goons and running all goons into mines and saying the build might be risky because terran has mines.
On December 09 2008 23:41 zer0das wrote: No zealots with the reaver? You were like 5 damage away from losing your reaver doing no damage... bad idea.
Nothing wrong with taking a Dragoon instead, problem was that he just dropped the Reaver first without testing if Tanks were nearby.
true.
It's funny you made a thread about reavers when your reaver drop was probably the worst part of that game.
Also, get a shuttle for mid/late game. It's such a shame not to take advantage of zealot bombing, you're making it so much harder for yourself by not doing it.
Also, if I was a toss, I would expand so much more agressively. It's easier IMO for protoss to deal with terran when terran is the one who has to do the aggression coz it's not something they're naturally good at; Terran is a static race, so unless your opponent is of superior skill, you will make it so much harder for him by making him unsiege and get of his lazy camping ass.
Once he's out in the open, flanking, ZealBombing and other techniques become easier to pull off.
:D I tend not to take islands for some reason. I dislike the closeness and makes me feel like im cornered >_> Also I tend to add more gates at my third base or fourth sometimes depending the strategy. My best iccup rank is D+ But I was like 16-11 or something then reset my stats because i got pissed at my incompetence >_>
On December 09 2008 23:41 zer0das wrote: No zealots with the reaver? You were like 5 damage away from losing your reaver doing no damage... bad idea.
Nothing wrong with taking a Dragoon instead, problem was that he just dropped the Reaver first without testing if Tanks were nearby.
I don't know... if you're only going to make two dragoons before the reaver, might as well make them zealots. You might be able to block your choke before the scv gets there (probably more often than not if a probe is brought to help block with the first zealot), if the map has a choke anyways. Not sure what the point of having range researched before the shuttle and reaver are out is either. That's probably going to slow down the first drop down a lot, if you hit them early enough they aren't going to be in any position to move out until your reaver is dead anyways.
If you don't get range, then you are going to do an all-in reaver build. In my book that falls under cheese and is VERY VERY risky. You either win and kill enough shit before the turrets are up or you lose by failing to harass because the terran player will be able to steam roll right over you. Without range is like dragoons being like zealots without speed. Very useless in most scenarios. Also, I choose to make dragoons because having 3-4 seems pretty normal. If the terran doesn't see as many as there should be, then he will probably suspect a drop(if he walled in which he most likely did)
On December 10 2008 10:50 Racenilatr wrote: If you don't get range, then you are going to do an all-in reaver build. In my book that falls under cheese and is VERY VERY risky. You either win and kill enough shit before the turrets are up or you lose by failing to harass because the terran player will be able to steam roll right over you. Without range is like dragoons being like zealots without speed. Very useless in most scenarios. Also, I choose to make dragoons because having 3-4 seems pretty normal. If the terran doesn't see as many as there should be, then he will probably suspect a drop(if he walled in which he most likely did)
You awr wrrnggg. Robo before range is almost standard on ramp maps. You can usually double exp while you harass with your reaver. ITS NOT JUST ABOUT DOING DAMAGE FOR FUCKS SAKE ITS ABOUT SCOUTING / KEEPING THE TERRAN IN HIS BASE. I don't see what's so risky with robo before range, you usually take island first and you'd have to fuck up majorly to get your ramp broken even without range. You react to what you see with the reaver harass. It's not risky damnit.
I just tested out the timing... it takes about 6 minutes and 10 seconds to get a reaver into the Terran's base on Python from the furthest spawns going robo before range, compared to 7 minutes and 10 seconds in your fpvod of range before robo. At 6 minutes and 10 seconds, I had 5 turrets and 3 tanks if I did a standard 1 fact FE as Terran... not quite enough to cover everything, and also in no position to move out since so many turrets were built (2nd factory is way later). The Terran can't cover everything and be in a position to move out any time soon. On the other hand, if you go range before robo he might very well be completely prepared for the reaver, and his next wave of factories are probably just about finishing.
Other observations... the early goons probably aren't a bad idea since you can get zealots later before expanding. There doesn't seem to be much reason to get dragoon range before the robo though... right before the reaver pops, there's enough minerals and gas to get range, and it'll be done before the Terran can move out (or you can wait until after the Nexus is down). Getting dragoon range first substantially slows down the robo, however. Two ranged goons isn't going to be enough to stop a dedicated cheese early on either, so unless they go 2 factory, I don't see the point. I guess you can kind of pressure him to keep him honest.
Anyways, robo before range is not all in. Just don't lose the reaver and there's nothing to worry about.
ya...don't lose the reavers....thats NOT hard to do =/ I just like playing a bit saferish with the range first but 3 tanks is alot of units. If the reaver died or you couoldnt get into terran's base, 3 tanks SHOULD be enough(maybe some scvs and vultures) to attack the forces at the protoss base but I guess you DID do tests and i DIDNT :D It's just my theorycraft that still thinks it doesnt work like that. Ill try to find some progamers going for reavers in pvt and make note of whether robo bay is down first before or after range. I guess it would be pretty safe because when i dt drop, I normally skip dragoon range till later but I always thought it was ok to do that because terran wouldnt be able to move out until there were scans
3 Tanks is not a lot. Even if you decided to attack the tanks which you might have to do if their is one by their CC then you should be able to take out 1 or 2 easily if you have a zeal/goon in the shuttle with the reaver. Its not that hard. 3 Tanks cannot possible cover everywhere. If your scared about losing the reaver or think your reaver micro is not up to par then just find somewhere far away from tanks but close enough to hit something like SCV's at the natural or a couple of supply depots or even a factory/assimilator. Just keep the shuttle/reaver alive flying around so you can take your island + nat and get range and some gateways up.
EPT
