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Okay, I love iccup and all, I love lan latency, etc.
Why the hell do they have to keep choosing these retarded maps for map of the week?
First off, Faoi is map of the week almost every single week. It was map of the week every week but last week...
No offense to nightmarjoo, but faoi has a bunch of flaws which make me hate playing on it.
Secondly, look at the maps this week. Sword in the moon? Honestly?
Has anyone attempted FE'ing on this map? It's impossible! The two openings into the natural make the choke so wide it's impossible to wall off unless you're walling off against a 50 pool and have the tech buildings to put in place as well with multiple pylons.
Maybe I'm just a noob since all I like playing are python, longinus, and a few others, but it seems like these new maps are really dumb.
Not being able to FE wouldn't be that big of a deal IF IT WAS A MICRO BASED MAP. However, considering the map is huge and the bases are in the corners, it's safe to say it's a macro whore map, just like every single other map that's come out in the last year it seems.
/rant
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United States11390 Posts
Python should never, ever be motw.
Being able to actually play on other maps is so refreshing.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Sword in the Moon rocks. Its absurd that python is so frequently MOTW though.
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The point of new maps is for you to learn to adapt.
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remove faoi from motw i dont know anyone who plays on that map. All my koreans friends always say motw always has this weird map i never even heard of. Also i would remove luna and lost temple.
Motw should always have one of these maps andro/othello/python/blue storm because they're the most played maps. I know a lot of people dislike bs and python but they're both pretty simple macro maps which are suited for practicing your mechanics. The rest should be currently played maps in proleague/msl/osl/gsl/courage. This seems the best imo. It gives a balance between players who just want to game casually and people who want to practice/improve their game.
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faoi just isn't a fun map and its a waste. nothing is more annoying then being at a certain rank and the only game you can find for motw is on that map t.t
I hate most maps actually, but anything that is being played on korean tv should be played on iccup to encourage the e-sports community.
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maybe they get bribes from the map makers to use their maps, lol
though i do wish that they mix up the motw map pool with a bit better maps... or at least keep up to date with progaming maps, always fun to -attempt- to recreate games seen. Yay for Sword In The Moon!
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On October 12 2008 15:21 BanZu wrote:
The point of new maps is for you to learn to adapt.
The problem with ICCup is that they aren't giving you new maps, they recycle the popular ones and just keep rolling it around and sticking in one new map every two weeks or so. -_-
Back when I played it was always Python, Luna, Gaia, and Blue Storm. So fucking retarded.
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My only problem with ICCUP is the maps to be honest. I don't care if they put in sword of the moon or the like. I would prefer if ICCUP just kept it modern. Maps from last season, maybe two seasons ago, and the current season. Why is python still around? It's like two years old almost. Let alone some of the older maps, they are non stop played. Python is a shitty map as it is, playing it 1000000 times and having already watched tons of games on it...replays, vods, whatever- please, get rid of it ICCUP. I IMPLORE YOU.
As to MOTW, I think they should just go down the list of maps, each week go down one further. I don't know why they don't do this already.
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On October 12 2008 15:47 Equinox_kr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 15:21 BanZu wrote:
The point of new maps is for you to learn to adapt. The problem with ICCup is that they aren't giving you new maps, they recycle the popular ones and just keep rolling it around and sticking in one new map every two weeks or so. -_- Back when I played it was always Python, Luna, Gaia, and Blue Storm. So fucking retarded.
When did you play, season 1? Gaia and Luna are almost never motws.
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United States17042 Posts
it would be nice if iccup would make the maps more current. The only nice thing about using the old maps is that everyone already knows how to play the maps. This lets everyone work only on mechanics, which helps everyone that is
that being said, if they could use current maps, that would help a lot.
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People are always bitching about maps.
You know what I notice? You don't even point out specific maps you want. You say "Korean Proleague Circuit maps," but I mean, there are some fucking unpopular ones in the circuit, and TBH, it hurts gaming in general to mimic the maps in the circuit because people can just copy the most recent strats they've seen (IE games will be very familiar and boring).
They ought to try out a separate leagues system, where one specifically uses only maps that are in the current proleague's pools, and one that just uses random maps, from old proleague seasons, from popular foreign creations, from whatever will just be fun, but not current.
Maybe the latter league will fail hard because not many Koreans will like it, but I dunno... Be worth trying out once. Get people from both sides of the fence to stop bitching.
Although the whole fucking point of MOTW is to encourage people to play on maps they don't necessarily want to play otherwise (either because they only want to do one strat, on one map, or because they don't like maps they're unfamiliar with).
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Python (and Ma Jae Yoon) hwaiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
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On October 12 2008 15:22 qet wrote:
what's wrong with faoi?
Not only is it bland and brings nothing new to the table, but there are two distinct features to it which really really annoy me:
1: There are critters EVERYWHERE. The number of kakarus on that map is absurd imo. I'll be playing and all of a sudden notice a yellow dot on my minimap, zoom over (not registering the color) to see what it is, and think it's a mutalisk for a split second. It's really annoying ,and can even get in the way of selection some times. There's no reason to have critters everywhere and it's not adding anything to the map.
2: The minerals are placed like they are in lost temple, aka in a retarded fashion. Since the spawns are in the corners it would have been easy for nightmarjoo to place the minerals on the sides, but no, he decided to place them for two of the spawns above/below the spawning location.
This not only is extremely annoying, but causes positional imbalances.
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On October 12 2008 16:32 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
People are always bitching about maps.
You know what I notice? You don't even point out specific maps you want. You say "Korean Proleague Circuit maps," but I mean, there are some fucking unpopular ones in the circuit, and TBH, it hurts gaming in general to mimic the maps in the circuit because people can just copy the most recent strats they've seen (IE games will be very familiar and boring).
They ought to try out a separate leagues system, where one specifically uses only maps that are in the current proleague's pools, and one that just uses random maps, from old proleague seasons, from popular foreign creations, from whatever will just be fun, but not current.
Maybe the latter league will fail hard because not many Koreans will like it, but I dunno... Be worth trying out once. Get people from both sides of the fence to stop bitching.
Although the whole fucking point of MOTW is to encourage people to play on maps they don't necessarily want to play otherwise (either because they only want to do one strat, on one map, or because they don't like maps they're unfamiliar with).
I suppose that's the problem. MOTW's point makes sense, to help encourage players to branch out and learn new maps.
The problem is that people only ever want to play motw. If I were to msg someone and say 1v1 Chupung-Reong? They'd be like motw?
No one ever wants to play anything but motw because no one cares about anything but their rank. Proven by the fact that when I'm literally 5 points away from the next level, peopel from that next level still refuse to play me because the'll lose like 25 more points if i beat them. It's retarded, the same thing happens with motw.
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Some guys doesn't care actually. I've played Chupung-Reong several times in the ladder.
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I would play those maps i would get from people hosting (i cant host myself). Python should never be motw as there is a lot of python games even if not motw. I was like cool, neo requiem and sword in the moon but nobody hosts those maps 
Just start hosting special maps, people will play those too if nothing else is available.
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I guess anything is fine for me.
ICCUP MOTW I think it's good because:
-I can get used to new maps.
-I play these new maps for the extra 30 points (whenever I win! yay)
so it's sorta like a motivation thing, and I get two things in one ^^
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80% of the modern maps are crap anyway.
Macro oriented, horrible pathfiding and so on.
Andromeda and colosseum being probably the two worst imo.
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On October 12 2008 16:32 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
People are always bitching about maps.
You know what I notice? You don't even point out specific maps you want. You say "Korean Proleague Circuit maps," but I mean, there are some fucking unpopular ones in the circuit, and TBH, it hurts gaming in general to mimic the maps in the circuit because people can just copy the most recent strats they've seen (IE games will be very familiar and boring).
So copying strats that worked on python two years ago is not familiar and boring?
Wtf?
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On October 12 2008 20:48 Boblion wrote:
80% of the modern maps are crap anyway.
Macro oriented, horrible pathfiding and so on.
Andromeda and colosseum being probably the two worst imo.
Oh yeah I had forgotten about the horrible pathfinding. On Sword In the Moon for example, if you tell your scouting probe to go to one of hte other bases it will jerk off in your base like an idiot.
You have to manually move all your units around to get them out of your base. Pretty freakin stupid.
And I agree with you, all the new maps are so macro whorish it's annoying.
They should have maps like Waiting To Panic be motw some times. That would be awesome.
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othello is such a nice map...
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On October 13 2008 07:29 YPang wrote:
othello is such a nice map...
Except it's completely unbalanced for toss.
Sure, tvz, tvt, zvz, pvp it's a great map, but pvz and pvt = ew
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On October 13 2008 07:51 -orb- wrote:Except it's completely unbalanced for toss. Sure, tvz, tvt, zvz, pvp it's a great map, but pvz and pvt = ew
I disagree, since i'm not a P or Z player i can't speak for PvZ, but a smart toss can literally drive terran insane with the multiple routes, which forces terran slow army to go back and force, till toss has 50 arbs... T_T
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United States17042 Posts
On October 13 2008 04:38 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 20:48 Boblion wrote:
80% of the modern maps are crap anyway.
Macro oriented, horrible pathfiding and so on.
Andromeda and colosseum being probably the two worst imo. Oh yeah I had forgotten about the horrible pathfinding. On Sword In the Moon for example, if you tell your scouting probe to go to one of hte other bases it will jerk off in your base like an idiot. You have to manually move all your units around to get them out of your base. Pretty freakin stupid. And I agree with you, all the new maps are so macro whorish it's annoying. They should have maps like Waiting To Panic be motw some times. That would be awesome.
You might as well make bloodbath the motw if you're planning on making things...interesting, to say the least.
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On October 12 2008 20:48 Boblion wrote:
80% of the modern maps are crap anyway.
Macro oriented, horrible pathfiding and so on.
Andromeda and colosseum being probably the two worst imo.
*gasp
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Dude, Sword in the Moon is the new proleague map. Don't complain. What else do you want as motw? motw should force you to play on the new progamer maps. Not the old and boring or the incompetent maps..
Just be happy motw isn't like this: Python, Longinus, Faoi, [random 2v2 only map]
Don't whine about pathfinding. It isn't a map problem. Just stop playing if you are too noob for something that simple.
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On October 13 2008 11:32 BlackStar wrote:
Don't whine about pathfinding. It isn't a map problem. Just stop playing if you are too noob for something that simple.
Uh, while pathfinding i guess is technically an ai problem, it is caused by terrain, so it is *also* inherently a map problem. And it's easy to handle pathfinding just for 1 or 2 units, but when it interferes with large army movements etc. it becomes a real frustration to management, and thus map specific ad hoc solutions (like building at the 3rd in blue storm to avoid getting stuck at the nat) have to be devised. so when it's said and done, i'm pretty sure players just prefer a map with good pathfinding - there's enough to worry about during a bw game anyway. "too noob" to handle pathfinding? i hope you are a troll.
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On October 13 2008 04:38 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 20:48 Boblion wrote:
80% of the modern maps are crap anyway.
Macro oriented, horrible pathfiding and so on.
Andromeda and colosseum being probably the two worst imo. Oh yeah I had forgotten about the horrible pathfinding. On Sword In the Moon for example, if you tell your scouting probe to go to one of hte other bases it will jerk off in your base like an idiot. You have to manually move all your units around to get them out of your base. Pretty freakin stupid. And I agree with you, all the new maps are so macro whorish it's annoying. They should have maps like Waiting To Panic be motw some times. That would be awesome.
I'm assuming it's because of the mineral wall. Guess what, live with it, just like you did with Blue Storm and not being able to send goons through the little opening
edit: actually the neutral building should correct the AI... hmmm... not sure...
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On October 13 2008 11:32 BlackStar wrote:Just stop playing if you are too noob for something that simple.
Let me guess, GG.net spammer?
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Am I the only one who loves Tau Cross as motw? :\
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On October 13 2008 08:17 DanceCommander wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 20:48 Boblion wrote:
80% of the modern maps are crap anyway.
Macro oriented, horrible pathfiding and so on.
Andromeda and colosseum being probably the two worst imo. *gasp
I think that a map where you can grab 3 bases that easily is bad.
Also there are no cliffs to make dropship play interesting and the center of the map is too open.
On October 13 2008 11:32 BlackStar wrote:
Don't whine about pathfinding. It isn't a map problem. Just stop playing if you are too noob for something that simple.
LOL. Seriously i don't play bw because i like spam fests and to give 200x the same order to my group of units just because the conjonction of dumb AI + horrible maps make it impossible to move properly. I play for all the fun BOs and strategies and micro moments.
Another example: I HATE blue Storm because you can't rally your goons to your third base ( maybe if you use some pylons in your natural to change the pathfiding but i don't care it is just too annoying. )
Maybe it doesn't matter to the l33t wannabe progamers like you. But i play bw for FUN and because i want to use my brain. Apm size contests and spam fests to correct horrible path fiding are just too lame.
+ Show Spoiler + Hovewer luna is my favourite map. But it is only because it is imba for Toss :>
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I'm not saying he's a noob. He might be but he probably isn't. I'm just pointing out that he made up excuses to bash certain maps.
On BS you just set your rally points proberly and it's never a problem. And yeah, you rally to your min only and they don't get stuck. Unless late game you don't realize where the units are you have hotkeyed.
On Sword of the Moon you just need to make sure you sent your scout to the middle first. But yeah, big problem is when you maynard your workers to another main later on.
Maps where you can get 3 bases early are great for strategy. You can open in more different ways on Andromeda than any other map I know. And because people can do really early FEs this also encourages cheese. Yeah, not all maps should be like that. But there should be maps like that.
Not to mention that on Sword of the Moon any third you might take are a lot forther away than on most other maps.
Main point is, just be glad the new korean maps get to be motw and not some random/old/bad/overplayed ones.
+ Show Spoiler +
But yeah, you guys a probably from sc2gg, right? Only want to play old overplayed maps, not the new progamer ones. Can't handle maps with interesting terran because the AI is bugged. Also, low post counts. Yup, must be true.
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On October 13 2008 19:46 r.Evo wrote:
Am I the only one who loves Tau Cross as motw? :\
i love Tau Cross! I also love Longi but it isnt MOTW often..
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On October 14 2008 01:26 BlackStar wrote:
Main point is, just be glad the new korean maps get to be motw and not some random/old/bad/overplayed ones.
i'm for new maps too. But i'm often disappointed .
Last map i really liked was hannibal  ( for 2v2 ). Hovewer i haven't really played the last maps.
On October 14 2008 01:26 BlackStar wrote:
But yeah, you guys a probably from sc2gg, right? Only want to play old overplayed maps, not the new progamer ones. Can't handle maps with interesting terran because the AI is bugged. Also, low post counts. Yup, must be true.
You must be joking ...
My reaver > your tank ;D
I don't really understand which map features ( terrain ) are interesting in Andromeda for example.
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And I didn't realize you have map-caused pathing difficulties on Andromeda.
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Just deal with the unit pathing it's not hard...
And Python is still an enjoyable map to play, it's a modern classic!
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truth.
faoi is like ALWAYS motw
also i dislike blue storm pathfinding
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edit: actually the neutral building should correct the AI... hmmm... not sure...
No.
They should have maps like Waiting To Panic be motw some times. That would be awesome.
/agree 
So copying strats that worked on python two years ago is not familiar and boring?
Wtf?
Take your head out of your ass. I meant that most people aren't watching old VODs of progamers, so either they never saw, or they don't remember with any precision what the strats used on them are. Python is hardly a year old... Think maps like Blade Storm, Lost Temple, Jungle Story, whatever.... Python is such a standard map that it shouldn't even be used as an example.. But maybe maps that were in the pool with it, like Nemesis, people would have long forgotten how the progamers played those maps, or even if current trends in progaming allow for old styles... I mean think about LT... When everyone was playing that, no one even knew about magic boxes with mutalisks, which has changed the game completely...
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On October 14 2008 05:26 kpcrew wrote:
truth.
faoi is like ALWAYS motw
also i dislike blue storm pathfinding
Rally to third mineral only. OMG, SO HARD. It's worth it for new gameplay dynamics that keep StarCraft fresh to add extra things you have to do. If you consider the extra clicks annoying and demanding, you might as well be arguing for MBS to be employed in the next patch.
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On October 14 2008 05:33 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 05:26 kpcrew wrote:
truth.
faoi is like ALWAYS motw
also i dislike blue storm pathfinding Rally to third mineral only. OMG, SO HARD. It's worth it for new gameplay dynamics that keep StarCraft fresh to add extra things you have to do. If you consider the extra clicks annoying and demanding, you might as well be arguing for MBS to be employed in the next patch.
Tbh blue storm is played a lot and very popular but i don't really see the new uber super cool gameplay dynamics.
It is a very defensive macro map and i find pvz and especially pvt really boring on it. It the heaven of turtle 3 bases terrans.
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On October 14 2008 05:19 BlackStar wrote:
And I didn't realize you have map-caused pathing difficulties on Andromeda.
My pathfiding remark was mostly for blue storm.
Oh and tell me what is so special about Andromeda please.
the 3 bases macro play ? the open middle ? or the two islands ?
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Well either you didn't read my post or you'll have to make a case for why I didn't make a good case for Andromeda.
I don't see why I need to repeat myself.
Anyway, Koreans know the most about SC. And they think Andromeda was the best new map in quite a while.
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Sry i'm not Korean
I must be dumb, my apologies.
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On October 14 2008 06:07 BlackStar wrote:
Well either you didn't read my post or you'll have to make a case for why I didn't make a good case for Andromeda.
I don't see why I need to repeat myself.
Anyway, Koreans know the most about SC. And they think Andromeda was the best new map in quite a while.
If the koreans say it's true.... then it must be true!
I love sophisms keep em coming.
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lol ignoring my arguments and going for a straw man...
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On October 14 2008 06:12 Boblion wrote:Sry i'm not Korean I must be dumb, my apologies.
Sadly not everyone is born with vast strategical knowledge and lightning quick fingers, us newbies will just have to accept ourselves as inferior beings.
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Dude, stop stirring up shit. Read what was posted.
Ill gladly try to explain what I said again. But it's kind of pointless to do if it wasn't read the first time. And you didn't even read it in the first place.
Not to mention those points are brought up every time when Andromeda is talked about. Hell, even at Blizzcon if I remember correcty. I also think I remember someone on TL attack say the same thing, probably a player.
Anyway, this wasn't about Andromeda in the first place. Not saying it's the best map ever. But at least be informed and reasonable.
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On October 14 2008 06:17 BlackStar wrote:
lol ignoring my arguments and going for a straw man...
I don't know why you seem to think that you made a case for andromeda because I can't find it in this thread.
Actually the only argument you've used is that strawman. Unless "3 early bases is cool" counts as an argument.
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Strawman? Do you even know what that means? For a strawman you need to attack something. I never attacked anything, let alone I made a weaker version of something.
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On October 14 2008 06:29 BlackStar wrote:
Strawman? Do you even know what that means? For a strawman you need to attack something. I never attacked anything, let alone I made a weaker version of something.
Are we posting in the same dimension?
Why is it so hard to make sense on the internet.
You're the one who made the strawman, I thought you were admitting that when you quoted me but you're actually accusing me?
My mind is blown.
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Yeah, you acted like the comment I made about Koreans prefering Andromeda was my argument.
I never said anything you can even falsely accuse as being a straw man. I think you confuse a straw man with a fallacy in general.
Not to mention you attacked the straw man you made out of my position with a fallacy. You don't need to be Korean to know a lot about SC.
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Relax guys. I think we should discuss the good map features.
imo:
- cliffs ( because it will make drops more valuable )
- semi open middle with multiple routes ( more strategy, less A-move )
- destructible buildings or mineral walls ( to prevent scouting or expansions for example )
- a third base not so safe ( prevent auto-macro games )
- ramps ( interesting for army position when you attack / defend )
- islands ? ( can be interesting in PvT when you go reaver drop but you also want to expo safely )
- small mineral patches in 2v2 and an higher min / gaz ratio because it will allow you to tech faster and the game gets more interesting than the standart mass goonling vs mass zealing.
I don't like Andromeda because it has only one good map feature ( imo ), the two islands. The cliffs arent really used because terran will alway kill the two neutral buildings and put a turret at this spot
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But what do you think about my arguments? Do you even play on Andromeda? What do you think about all the options in PvP? What about those builds where they go 1 gate with 2 zeal 1goon into the mineral only? It counters a lot but it countered by a lot of other stuff, isn't it?
Why is cheese so strong on macro maps?
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On October 14 2008 06:35 BlackStar wrote:
Yeah, you acted like the comment I made about Koreans prefering Andromeda was my argument.
I never said anything you can even falsely accuse as being a straw man. I think you confuse a straw man with a fallacy in general.
Not to mention you attacked the straw man you made out of my position with a fallacy. You don't need to be Korean to know a lot about SC.
A very weak argument that can be refuted easily can be called a strawman, which you set up yourself, and I refuted it. If you want to be anal about it I guess you could call it an authoritative fallacy/sophism or whatever it's called in english which you made. This is beside the point and I don't even know why you're argueing about this, you made a faulty argument and now you're rambling about fallacies and strawmen, classic internet debating. Why are you desperately trying to avoid the questions Im asking?
To get on point, and to the question that you never answered for some reason: Where is this magic case you seem to think you have presented here? You said that the pathing isn't that bad... that's it? The only REAL argument you've used so far is the one about koreans having superior knowledge which was faulty.
And for the love of god when you reply to this make it coherent. I don't know what you're rambling about half of the time. Just tell me where you made this case on andromeda being a good map.
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What you consider cheese is often standart play on oldschool maps.
Nowadays a 2 fact or a 3 gates goon is a cheese because on this kind of macro maps they are "all in" Bos.
Imo it is just gamble. You just bet that your opponent will be too greedy and you hope he won't scout your timed rush.
i think it is bad. Many Builds now are just desperate all in cheesy strats because of the min only in main + the island.
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On October 14 2008 06:49 Frits wrote:
And for the love of god when you reply to this make it coherent. I don't know what you're rambling about half of the time. Just tell me where you made this case on andromeda being a good map.
You didn't read my posts, you don't know what the words you use mean, you admit you don't even know what you yourself are actually trying to argue for. And even after reading wikipedia you are still wrong on the definition of 'straw man'.
What more is there to say? Just leave me and Boblion at peace. Go complain and ask for a 'ban for being wrong'.
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you are truly pathetic
you never adressed anything I asked and still aren't
I adressed everything you talked about perfectly
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On October 14 2008 06:50 Boblion wrote:
What you consider cheese is often standart play on oldschool map.
Nowadays a 2 fact or a 3 gates goon is a cheese...
You can't proxy vs old standard play ie 2 fact or 3 gate goon. And yeah, 3 gate goon is probably an all in on macro maps. It's all relative.
Ok, you just think strategy is a gamble. It often is. And many times it's a mind game. But the same is true in war.
Plus, you can still scout.
But in the end the so called 'boring macro maps' have a legion of different viable builds where in older maps you are often forced to play a set number of standard BOs. Yeah, they can be interesting in other ways. But that's the point. We have Andromeda now. We also have Raid Assault 2.
You prefer tactical maps. I don't even claim I prefer strategic maps. I often found Andromeda very frustration because it's so difficult to pick the right way to play. But don't be narrow minded or uneducated about it.
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On October 14 2008 06:58 Frits wrote:
I adressed everything you talked about perfectly
You denied even finding what you are supposed to address. Don't contradict youself.
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On October 14 2008 06:27 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 06:17 BlackStar wrote:
lol ignoring my arguments and going for a straw man... I don't know why you seem to think that you made a case for andromeda because I can't find it in this thread. Actually the only argument you've used is that strawman. Unless "3 early bases is cool" counts as an argument.
Maps where you can get 3 bases early are great for strategy. You can open in more different ways on Andromeda than any other map I know. And because people can do really early FEs this also encourages cheese. Yeah, not all maps should be like that. But there should be maps like that.
=O
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Yeah I asked him if that was it and he keeps ignoring it.
There are dozens of maps where you get 3 bases early, that argument isn't about andromeda in particular, it's about maps with double expansions in general which we weren't talking about.
And do I even have to mention why it's bullshit? FE is the only option on andromeda. Seriously since when do macro maps lead to more creativity in players?
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What about fastest ?
You have infinite mineral early so you can open in even more different ways !
xDDDDDD
+ Show Spoiler + this post is a semi-troll :>
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Fastest is completely different... It restricts gameplay elements like economy and makes the game overly defensive, while having severe imbalance favouring Protoss in all matchups... It can't be compared to 'macro maps' of the proleagues in any way.
Andromeda is a very good and interesting map. While I'm liking the shift back to maps that encourage one base play, such as Medusa, and Raid Assault (old map they've brought back), I can't deny that a mix of maps that encourage opposite trends is best.
The way the minerals at the expos in Andromeda are placed cannot be ignored. That mineral only in-main is quite vulnerable, and encourages some interesting gorilla tactics, while the large mains give ample space for drops. Watching games on Andromeda, I've found they aren't even very slow. There's back and forth battle while both players take all the bases in their mains, especially with Zerg who take them so quickly. The option of not taking the quick expos and simply going a riskier strat that takes advantage of the vulnerable in-main expos makes it equally viable to pure build-up mode.
It's also a fact that macro maps are what have allowed us to see units like defilers get mixed in so much more. The army combinations are much more thorough and intriguing in macro maps late game.
If you still hate these maps, that's fine, but a lot of people like them. You don't have to play them or watch games on them, but to infer other people are stupid for playing them is absurd. They're good maps.
FE is the only option on andromeda. Seriously since when do macro maps lead to more creativity in players?
PvZ... Case and point. FE gives so many more options than just 2gate zealots, or one gate tech. FE actually gives you the economy to go a vast array of strategies, ranging from pure ground armies, to pure air, to mixes, and to varying styles of play on the passive spectrum of the game, to the ultra aggressive. It's not impossible to go one base strategies, however. It just takes Nal_Balls
PS: Your whole debate about argument is retarded. Neither of you know what you're talking about, and you need to stop.
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PvZ... Case and point. FE gives so many more options than just 2gate zealots, or one gate tech. FE actually gives you the economy to go a vast array of strategies, ranging from pure ground armies, to pure air, to mixes, and to varying styles of play on the passive spectrum of the game, to the ultra aggressive. It's not impossible to go one base strategies, however. It just takes Nal_Balls
What are you basing this on? I have seen no creativity since andromeda at all, it's been the same kind of crap as always. This isn't even about andromeda it's about maps with mineral placements similar to andromeda. You hardly make a arguments as to why andromeda in particular is any good, because there isn't anything special about andromeda except for the 2 neutral buildings and the platform which make it kinda cool.
Aside from that only boring standard macro games come from andromeda.
Also TvP is a nightmare on that map.
The guerilla tactics consist of placing some ranged units under the mineral expo and running away. It only discourages dropship shuttle harass and makes the games even more standard macro.
PS: Your whole debate about argument is retarded. Neither of you know what you're talking about, and you need to stop.
You're so mature!!!! You know, even though this argument has been over for an hour and that I know exactly what Im talking about. Don't be all condescending, I asked a few simple questions that were somehow impossible to answer.
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Frits & Boblion .. ;(
On October 14 2008 05:48 Boblion wrote:
Tbh blue storm is played a lot and very popular but i don't really see the new uber super cool gameplay dynamics.
It is a very defensive macro map and i find pvz and especially pvt really boring on it. It the heaven of turtle 3 bases terrans.
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Blue storm's small choke & short distance allows for early attacks such as bunker rush. The close backdoor distance is strong for mass drops and proxy drops. Small units can engage in battle right away if it takes place in the middle of the map or your opponent's territory. The mineral only can be attacked from high ground.
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Yeah technically Blue Storm should be perfect for a multitude of strategies, but I think it stopped being about the maps a long time ago. Players now adays, and especially Koreans, will find a way to make any map a macro map regardless of the map features.
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On October 13 2008 19:46 r.Evo wrote:
Am I the only one who loves Tau Cross as motw? :\
No, I do too!
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EPT
