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Blogs > Dromar
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Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-05-29 10:01:01
May 29 2008 09:44 GMT
#1
ZERG (50 games)
ZvZ (11 games) 2- 9 18.1%
ZvT (16 games) 7- 9 43.7%
ZvP (23 games) 5-18 21.7%
Winrate 28%

I'm gonna stop keeping track of my APM since it's basically a waste of time to average it out. My APM is between 150-170 vT and vP, and between 100-120 vZ. There really doesn't seem to be a whole lot to do in ZvZ usually.


I'm 14-36 in the last 50 games
I'm 8-17 in the last 25 games

I generally played much tougher competition in this set of games. The thing is, on bnet, I'll usually find myself against players that are either way better or way worse than myself. I'd say out of this set of 50 games, I played maybe 15 against players close to my level. I may consider playing ICCup, since that way I'll be able to focus on similarly-skilled players.


ZvT:
I've tried out an idea I had recently for ZvT on Python: get lair, lay down a den and a spire, research slow drops and dual evos, and take both islands as soon as drops finish. Pile up some lurkers and go for hive. I've found that Terran will rarely find out about the islands until it's far too late unless they go for a quick dropship, in which case they'll probably scout one or both quickly.
Other than that I just need practice playing to reduce the "wasted" time in my games, like when I get a queens nest and don't go to hive for ~1 minute, and then I build a defiler mound, but don't get consume or defilers for another minute. I also need to get more experience taking out science vessels with scourge. It sucks that vessels fly nearly as fast as scourge. Scourge should be faster IMO by just a bit.

ZvP:
I'm getting very frustrated losing to protosses with 70 APM over and over. I feel like protoss can beat me without even having to try. Psi-storm is gay. 1 templar is worth 10 of my supply, or more when you count the archon merge. I can barely survive a push, much less stop his expo, which always happen simultaneously. Once the expo is up, there's 5-10 cannons protecting it, and I can't take out his army because psi storms melt half my army in 3 seconds. GG. ok, enough ranting.
Thinking more constructively, I just feel that protoss has too many options in PvZ on Python, or generally any map with a ramp. Short of 4 or 5-pool gayness, Zerg can't stop an FE. 2gate is tough for me to fight off when I 12hatch, and I feel like I get so far behind economically no matter how well the early harass goes since so much larva/money is used for lings, while the protoss pumps probes constantly. Sunks are pretty much worthless because he can just run up my ramp. Which brings up ramps: ramps afford the protoss the ability to do 1gate tech builds in PvZ that can either gg it right there (1 corsair that can't be answered = gg) or cripple the Zerg economically, forcing me to either get gas really early or spend all my initial gas on a hydra den + a few hydras which sometimes can't even keep the corsairs from getting kills, and are next to worthless against speedzeals. Protoss could also go for a quick +1 or speed up or any other less conventional 1gate tech build, and I need to scout it, so I pretty much have to give up an overlord for it, either to a corsair or a dragoon. This is all a result of the fact that Python has high-ground start locations, and protoss can just hold-position 2 zealots and do whatever the fuck he wants. Overpool speed is also pretty shitty against FE on maps with ramps, since anything blocking the tiny ramp will cause the run-through to be a complete failure, which sets me way behind economically.
That said, I've played against some pretty good protoss players, but you don't have to be good to beat me in PvZ. Get a group of +1 speedzeals, a couple corsairs, and attack-move, gg. I'm always either too weak economically, or militarily, or I just don't have an answer fast enough.
So, in summary, I'm having difficulty against protoss. So I'm doing what I usually do when I have trouble with something: I keep banging my head against the wall until the wall breaks. I'm reminded of the time I first moved to expert in Guitar Hero. I played Smoke on the Water 28 times before I passed, and after that I never failed an expert song again.

ZvZ:
I'm really liking the gas-pool builds. I'll usually 12gas11pool, and go straight for lair/spire, pumping lings and adding a second hatch in main. I'm kind of an idiot with lings when I'm on the offensive. I've noticed a few times that I'll overpower his lings with superior numbers, and then attack the hatch at his nat, thinking "if I take this out I'll be way ahead." Obviously, I should be going straight for the drones. It's cost me a couple games, but I don't think I'll be making that mistake any more.

Questions:

[ZvT]
1. Is there any strategy or tactic that I can use to dissuade Terran from getting dropships when I go double island expo?
2. How come I almost never get bunker rushed? Is it just too hard to pull off on a 4 player map like Python? I thought BBS and bunker rushes were popular on bnet.
3. When I take my third (assuming Python), which expo should I take? Corners are difficult to defend since they're wide open. Min onlys are worthless (ie. gasless). That leaves empty mains and nats, which I'm reconsidering. Mains have a ramp which I can defend with 2-3 lurkers, but securing a nat is like getting another expo free whenever I need it. If I take an empty nat and throw up a few sunks, it's nearly as well-defended as my nat. Any comments/suggestions on which expo is better to take?


[ZvP]
1. In what order should I spend my gas? Say I 12h11p13h@3rd against protoss on Python, and we'll assume he's opening FE tech to corsairs. When should I get my gas, and what should I spend it on?
2. When should I go for hive tech? What are the signs I should look for to indicate that I should be going for hive tech?
3. Why don't protoss players build a pylon where my nat would go and follow it up with cannons behind the minerals more often? I've only had this happen once so far, and when protoss FEs and Zerg 12hatch why is this not done more? How can I stop it?
4. How do I deal with a probe harassing my drones mining? He's pretty much impossible to kill since he has regenerating shields. Meanwhile he keeps following my injured drone around until he finally kills it.

[ZvZ]
1. 12hatch at nat. When should I do it?
2. 12pool12hatch@nat. What should my plan be to deal with his earlier mutas when I go for an econ opening such as this? Should I plan on getting spores or should I try to get muta/scourge of my own to defend with?

Constructive criticism, questions, and comments are welcome.

*****
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
May 29 2008 10:10 GMT
#2
Scourge and well-placed overlords are the best you can do against dropships. I've found that bastard zerg that keep one or two lurkers in their mineral lines totally disrupts dropship play, but that's a hefty price to pay, especially as you get more mineral lines. Double-island is asking to get hit with dropships.

Two-three lurkers is a cheap price to pay to defend a main base. It'll delay you until tanks. As opposed to if you take a natural, you have essentially the same problem as a corner base, except now you're given the added problem of the nat being rather un-reinforceable (the choke works against you), so you can lose the base to a couple tanks and the army sitting back waiting to intercept your attempts to win it back. And you usually won't be able to force the terran army INTO the nat, at least enough so that you can "trap" the army, as you could with a main base. I'd say take mains, or take corners. Nats only if you really want to hide it and you're relatively certain he won't get an SCV/Vulture out to check Nats (most terran lower naturals on their scanning-for-expo priority list TvZ).

Bunker rushes are "cheesy", and most 12 hatch players are accustomed to stopping it. It's also way better on a 2/3-player map, as you'd surmised. On a 4-man map the economic loss is pretty harsh (from the extra SCV being sent to scout), so if your bunker rush fails, which happens quite often on such a spacey map like Python, you're gg'd, because you don't really have much left.

In terms of ZvP,

There's no set rule to gas expenditure and hive, as far as I know. Aside from a +1 speedlot push and a corsair/reaver and the archon push, zerg tends to make the first move in terms of unit composition. Most people make lurkers. Hive is just when you feel he's not going to shred you anytime soon, I think. Like if your lurker contain is up and you're confident you can deflect drops, or whatnot. Pylons are expensive. A good zerg player will just shift their hatch to the side, mine from 3 minerals or so while their zerglings take out the pylon, then place another hatch in the right position, so you'd lose 100 minerals (and thus slower tech) for rather minimal gain. Plus they have to scout you really fast, which on 4-player maps isn't always going to happen. And move your drones if they're being picked at. If the probe tries to follow your drone into your mining lanes, pick up 2 drones and fire at it as it passes through.

In terms of ZvZ, the metagame tends to be 9-pool gas, and that probably has to do with why you have such a horrid win %. The economy builds tend to not do you much good, because ZvZ is usually dictated by the amount of gas you have, rather than the minerals. If anything, if you do a 12 hatch at nat and manage to hold it, you probably are going to be forced to go hydra-devourer with tons of spores, like one of the "top" replays in the TSL between Inc and someone else. Unless you can brutally out-micro the other guy.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Xeln4g4
Profile Joined January 2005
Italy1209 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-05-29 13:24:16
May 29 2008 13:20 GMT
#3
If you are a 150 players apm and have problems with 70 APM P there are SERIOUS issue in your gaming. I find very difficult to damage Z badly with storms when they have more than 140 APM, unless i am defending vs Z random mass attack. Any Z above 140 APM is usually very good at prevening his units from getting seriously stormed ...

ZvP at 21.7% clearly show u have serious problems here ... i am P and lose half of the games for small mistakes/disattention in the FE phase, which is a "must" to make the MU almost even.

Just watch some replays ... really. This MU is the easiest of the game.



Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
May 29 2008 19:52 GMT
#4
On May 29 2008 19:10 Southlight wrote:
In terms of ZvZ, the metagame tends to be 9-pool gas, and that probably has to do with why you have such a horrid win %. The economy builds tend to not do you much good, because ZvZ is usually dictated by the amount of gas you have, rather than the minerals. If anything, if you do a 12 hatch at nat and manage to hold it, you probably are going to be forced to go hydra-devourer with tons of spores, like one of the "top" replays in the TSL between Inc and someone else. Unless you can brutally out-micro the other guy.

no
Moderator。◕‿◕。
blabber
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4448 Posts
May 29 2008 20:02 GMT
#5
forced to go hydra-devour? uhh..
blabberrrrr
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
May 30 2008 04:36 GMT
#6
On May 30 2008 04:52 Harem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2008 19:10 Southlight wrote:
In terms of ZvZ, the metagame tends to be 9-pool gas, and that probably has to do with why you have such a horrid win %. The economy builds tend to not do you much good, because ZvZ is usually dictated by the amount of gas you have, rather than the minerals. If anything, if you do a 12 hatch at nat and manage to hold it, you probably are going to be forced to go hydra-devourer with tons of spores, like one of the "top" replays in the TSL between Inc and someone else. Unless you can brutally out-micro the other guy.

no


Yeah, I have a horrid win % in ZvZ because I generally played noticeably better players.

I'm thinking that if I ZvZ and secure my nat, I just have to be able to defend my opponent's earlier aggression for a short while before I can just overpower him with a greater gas econ. My ZvZ question was aimed at asking what I should try to do to defend myself before my econ has pulled that far ahead of my opponents.
.gypsy
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada689 Posts
May 31 2008 03:47 GMT
#7
ZvT = 0 gas gg mid game push...
https://www.twitch.tv/gypsy93
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
May 31 2008 13:54 GMT
#8
On May 31 2008 12:47 VyzhiS wrote:
ZvT = 0 gas gg mid game push...


What?
ulszz
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Jamaica1787 Posts
May 31 2008 22:50 GMT
#9
i wish i had the dedication of u... i'm pretty sure i'm 2 of your zvz games.
everliving, everfaithful, eversure
.gypsy
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada689 Posts
June 03 2008 21:52 GMT
#10
Basically if you're playing a decent Terran you'll easily lose this kind of game, I actually started typing the reasons why you shouldn't do this build and stopped half way cause it was like a huge paragraph and whatnot because my point was that a decent Terran can easily stomp this build. If you want to, pm me and I could help you out with matchup even if I'm not an amazing player =]
https://www.twitch.tv/gypsy93
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