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Some reflections on Christianity

Blogs > Kaotu
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Kaotu
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States986 Posts
May 13 2008 00:11 GMT
#1
Hello TLnet.

In a way this site has altered the course of my life. I do not mean that trivially either; one fateful day, I was arguing in some old thread here on this very site that God exists (or something like that). Actually, to be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure what my argument was (I begin arguing with the thread on page 10, if you want to see for yourself), which says a lot about how developed my intellectual life was at that point (not very).

I was intelligent enough, however, to at least realize that what I was saying was extremely unclear, and bordering on incoherency (if not blatant gibberish); I realized for the first time that I had never thought critically about the beliefs which I held dearest. Given that I grew up in a sort of cult-like Christian sect (or, full-blown cult, depending on the definition of "cult" we're using), I suppose that this is not all too surprising.

What does make the story interesting, I think, is the fact that that particular thread changed my life. I was suddenly introduced to critical arguments against God's existence, and suddenly felt that I needed strong arguments to believe in God's existence. And so, I dove into the world of Christian apologetics (this was my senior year of high school). This lead me into contact with the study of philosophy more generally, which is today my field of academic study in college. While I am no longer all that interested in apologetics (at least in the classical sense of giving arguments for God's existence or what-have-you), I am certainly still carrying on to this day the personal project of clarifying what I think and believe, striving to match my beliefs with reality and what is true about the world, and striving to express my thoughts clearly (as well as simply thinking clearly). Not an easy thing, but TLnet has helped me in that journey in a pretty profound way, and so I thank you all.

(Although a silly side note related to that thread, reading a couple of things I wrote, I agree with something I wrote and that the thread creator seems to have missed. For one, the author for some reason conflated omniscience and omnipotence, and two, it is clearly not valid to simply assume that omniscience negates free will. You need an argument to get there, you can't just make that blanket statement. Especially considering that most philosophers, perhaps especially naturalistic philosophers, assume compatibilism is true, the view that free will and determinism go hand in hand. But, anyway, I do agree that if God has comprehensive and infallible knowledge of all future actions then we are not free in the meaningful sense; but I wouldn't bother to define omniscience that way. Puzzle solved (just kidding). Or... you could just read a lick of what theists have to say about it (say, read about molinism and open theism and other solutions) instead of arguing on TLnet about it. Ahem.)

These preliminary considerations now aside, I turn my thoughts towards the initial (poorly defined) purpose of this blog: some more or less random reflections on Christianity.

It is amazing that I grew up fairly convinced that Christianity was true with little to no doubt about the matter; I have difficulty now seeing how I used to think like that.

I think that like a lot of modern people, I really earnestly want to believe that something like orthodox Christianity is true; I want to believe that God loved the world enough to become one of us, and to die with us; I want to believe that this world will one day be completely redeemed and renewed, that our battles with disease, poverty, sin and death are not vain, a simple expression of our selfish desire to live and procreate, but rather an expression of a more fundamental need for relationships that transcend the grave, for what one might vaguely just call "meaning".

Of course, traditional Christian doctrine also teaches that the renewal of this world is bad news for the vast majority of humanity; most people will spend an eternity in apparently endless suffering.

To make matters worse, some Christian theologians have thought that this is somehow a joyful thing; Tertullian for one discouraged Christians from going to the Roman games to watch people be slaughtered... encouraging them that they would get to watch their enemies suffer for an eternity while in heaven instead!

Aquinas thought that from heaven, Christians would have the great opportunity to watch sufferers in hell, to eternally remind them of God's justice to the sufferers and mercy to them. And that extends to family members... He thought that watching them suffer eternally would somehow add to our state of bliss.

I'm not sure what to make of things like that. I don't feel like I need to raise an argument against these sorts of statements; but a great many people believe things like this, so I just don't know.

I have a hard time fitting "dogma" into the picture, you know? Why does God care what we believe? It seems to me pretty clear that it is his fault for giving us the improper cognitive equipment, if he actually wanted us to be able to come to belief in him. Honest and sincere people believe all sorts of differing things on the fundamental issues of human life; it seems like if God wanted us to all be Christians just from thinking really hard about it, then honest truth-seekers would all be Christians. Such is not the case.

I do find a lot of value in Christian morality, and even in the Christian moral life. I'm not just talking about "Christian values" in the American evangelical sense (sex only when married, and then only with the opposite sex, and while living in affluent white suburbs); I mean something more like the Christian tradition's sense of ethical cultivation. You know, virtue ethics. Human flourishing which springs from a denial of self, a cultivation of love for neighbor, and so forth. Of course it might seem silly to some to equate the elevation of human flourishing with specifically Christian virtues; but I find a lot of good in the Christian tradition's reflection on such issues.

What do you do when you cannot shake your hope that Christianity is true, that Jesus rose from the dead, and yet cannot shake your doubts about a huge handful of Christianity's central claims? Just reject what you doubt and accept what does work for you? That seems dishonest somewhere.

Do we have power over what we believe? I don't know. I don't think so, to be honest. I doubt that we "decide" what seems true to us. In some ways I can't shake the Christian faith; I cannot shake my hope for it, I cannot shake my belief that Christianity brings hope for this life and for the next, though I suspect that most Christians are rather confused as to the hope we have for this life. And I should probably count myself as one of them; I believe that living as Christ has the power to transform lives and to end in human flourishing, but the details are a bit tricky.

I cannot look in the face of an honest, truth-seeking practitioner of another faith, even say an honest and compassionate atheist, and hold to the belief that I have something they don't. That I somehow am saved, and they somehow damned.

I also cannot look to the cross and tell myself "no, this is a lie". Maybe I look at it as I look at poetry; but even in my most skeptical moments, I am suspicious that something was happening at Easter, something historical, and something true, in any sense of that word I can imagine.

I also feel "wishy washy"; I don't want to construct a God or a religion; and I certainly don't want to construct a God or a religion that is impotent, or believe in either of those that cannot change the world.

And yet I've resigned not to believe in changing the world.

I do dream of changing maybe a life or two, including my own; maybe living simply all my life, maybe living among the poor rather than the affluent, and learning from them and helping them in return wherever I can. But that is certainly a long way from changing the world.

If you read any significant portion, thanks for your time. Feel free to reflect here as well, whether critically of me or in agreement with something I've said, or simply to share and express some of your own thoughts on the matter. I think religious debate is all too easily a debate that happens between those bitter against religion and those who, for ease, I'll dub "fundamentalists"; I suspect that those sorts of debates are anything but productive for anyone.

*****
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
May 13 2008 00:19 GMT
#2
I think religious debate is all too easily a debate that happens between those bitter against religion and those who, for ease, I'll dub "fundamentalists"; I suspect that those sorts of debates are anything but productive for anyone.

Clearly for you the stupid TL.net religious debates were productive.

I would just add that you shouldn't confuse virtue ethics with Christian ethics. Biblical ethics are often contradictory and besides virtue ethics has its own flaws. Come the way of Kantian Intuitionism.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
May 13 2008 00:52 GMT
#3
5/5 ez.

One of the most insightful blogs I've read on TL.

First of all, kudos on being so open-minded. Most people, when they're faced with the realization that they're wrong about something important to them, try very hard to rationalize that belief. But you don't seem to buy into christian apologetics.

I think what you're struggling with is the fear that if you abandon faith, your life loses meaning. Religion is your grasp on a life that is worth living. I think this is where you and I disagree. I am an agnostic who doesn't even have faith in the afterlife, but I think you can find meaning on your own, and that you don't have to rely on some arbitrary third party to assign that meaning for you. When you really think about it, the absence of meaning in the atheist is just as present in the theist's life. How do you answer the problem of evil, for example? Unless you buy into christian apologetics, what it boils down to ultimately is that god works in "mysterious ways". This is the similar to the answer atheists have to the question of "Why?" -- "No one knows". The only difference is the presence of a supreme being in whose judgment we must unerringly trust. In my mind, Christianity doesn't grant meaning, it only gives us an excuse not to try and find meaning. It's a rational loophole out of serious existential questions.

Science tells me that I'm simply a product of evolution; that my ancestors were apes, and that his ancestors were bacteria. To the theist, this is a very dismal idea. It makes everything we feel, our experiences, who we are, seem petty. If evolution is to be believed, then we are all here by chance. By chance I may have children, or develop cancer, or fall in love; by chance the seasons change, and the sun rises in the morning, and you and I wake up and go to work. I personally have no problem with this fact, but I understand how for some people, this is an unsatisfying and incredible solution. Here's my take on how to "digest" it:

I live a happy and (I think) morally correct life despite a lack of metaphysical guidance. I can do this because for me, the lack of a creator who has endowed us with the capacity to feel does not make my feelings less valuable. I may not have a sentient creator, but I still exist just as surely and as happily as if I'd been designed by the Christian God. Regardless of whether the world is a product of design or of chance, it's the same world, inhabited by the same people. During your stint as a Christian, I'm sure you developed an appreciation of how beautiful and intricate nature is, and how wonderful life is. Suppose you were to lose your faith completely, wouldn't you still agree that nature is very beautiful in both function and form? Doesn't life still appear to you to be remarkable and mysterious? Except intuitively, the absence of a designer in all of this doesn't hurt my ability to appreciate life.

Or that could not at all be what you're thinking. Whatever. Just wanted to write something.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
May 13 2008 00:57 GMT
#4
Just to follow up on what ahrara said: A Free Man's Worship by Bertrand Russell. Beautiful prose and a beautiful secular humanist message.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
May 13 2008 01:03 GMT
#5
Way to one up my shitty attempt to be deep and eloquent.

(kidding)

I'm going to read through that.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
MasterOfChaos
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Germany2896 Posts
May 13 2008 01:04 GMT
#6
Nice blog
I agree with many of your points. Especially that god made us with the ability to think, but at the same time demands blind obedience not only in deed, but also in thought. That he is portraited as loving god, but at the same time condemns the majority of humans to an eternal(=infinite) punishment because of finite sins(might be even as small as not believing in him) and even expects to be loved for that.
But on the other hand you are also right that many(not all) of the values Christianity promotes are good values which can serve as an inspiration.
LiquipediaOne eye to kill. Two eyes to live.
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
May 13 2008 01:08 GMT
#7
Nice post, I enjoyed reading it. The problem with Christianity, and most religions as I see it, lie in all the contradictions and how they make the religion branch out in thousands of different interpretations. You yourself touched on the subject of "heaven" or "the renewal of this world". Probably the greatest obstacle to pass for any intellectual believer.

Would a true christian, a true believer, really want to be affiliated with the skewed picture of "heaven" painted in the bible and promoted by countless theologists/popes/ministers...?

Completely contradictory to the entire message of the NT.

I'd gladly tear my ticket to heaven/renewal of this world/ in pieces if this indeed was the true incarnation of the afterlife. Rather hang out and party with the d00ds in hell.
KrAzYfoOL
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Australia3037 Posts
May 13 2008 01:09 GMT
#8
i read it all, twas a nice read
It's better to burn out than to fade away
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
May 13 2008 01:49 GMT
#9
--- Nuked ---
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
May 13 2008 02:00 GMT
#10
This blog has potential. It would be sad to see it tainted like any other religious thread. I kind if just skimmed over it because I have to get some homework done really soon (well not some, a lot. procrastination for the loss T_T).

It seems like you are relatively happy, and I guess that is mainly what matters.

Good day
zachmorris
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States106 Posts
May 13 2008 02:04 GMT
#11
wow! best post on Tl.net in a long time. Ahrara what you said is brilliant. =]
I hate zach morris
Arrian
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States889 Posts
May 13 2008 02:47 GMT
#12
I note that your grammar was impeccable, your clarity admirable, your content thought-provoking, and respectfully and intelligently presented overall, which is way more than can be said for a majority of your peers.

On May 13 2008 09:11 Kaotu wrote:

And yet I've resigned not to believe in changing the world.

I do dream of changing maybe a life or two, including my own; maybe living simply all my life, maybe living among the poor rather than the affluent, and learning from them and helping them in return wherever I can. But that is certainly a long way from changing the world.

I think religious debate is all too easily a debate that happens between those bitter against religion and those who, for ease, I'll dub "fundamentalists"; I suspect that those sorts of debates are anything but productive for anyone.


Right there with you, 100%, all the way.
Writersator arepo tenet opera rotas
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
May 13 2008 03:30 GMT
#13
"what the heck does life matter if there is no God? Honestly, nothing at all. And no argument you have can convince me otherwise." - Katau

I'm glad that you are starting to break away from this type of thinking. I and many others don't need a God to give meaning to our lives.
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
May 13 2008 03:52 GMT
#14
On May 13 2008 09:11 Kaotu wrote:

Do we have power over what we believe? I don't know. I don't think so, to be honest. I doubt that we "decide" what seems true to us.


I disagree with this. You have to break free from preconceived beliefs and personal biases and look at things from other perspectives. You can also decide to only believe that which can be substantiated by evidence. You don't have to let the culture you were raised in dictate your view of reality.

Look at Christianity from a different perspective, not from the perspective of someone born and raised in a Christian society. After all, that is the only reason you are Christian, is it not? That reason wasn't good enough for me.
man
Profile Joined November 2005
United States272 Posts
May 13 2008 04:02 GMT
#15
On May 13 2008 09:11 Kaotu wrote:
What do you do when you cannot shake your hope that Christianity is true, that Jesus rose from the dead, and yet cannot shake your doubts about a huge handful of Christianity's central claims? Just reject what you doubt and accept what does work for you? That seems dishonest somewhere.

It is dishonest, yet you already do it, and so do all Christians. You don't follow everything the Bible says because you know that some of it is just plain crazy, yet you are happy to accept the parts that you like. I kind of sound like an ass in this post, but I'm just telling it like it is.
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