• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:48
CEST 04:48
KST 11:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)11Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format13[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!5Weekly Cups (July 6 - 12): Protoss strike back12BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format Is the larve respawn broken? 5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) BGE Stara Zagora to be held again in June 2025
Tourneys
Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Summer Cup 2026 GSL CK #5 Race War RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event HomeStory Cup 29
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family
Brood War
General
Etiquete rules in Asl? Recommended FPV games (post-KeSPA) Pros Debate: Zerg Unfairly Nerfed? (ASL S22 map) BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool
Tourneys
[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend! Escore Tournament - Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Wildcard Qualifier
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport] Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
The Experiences We Want and …
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8599 users

[R] I need a name - Page 3

Blogs > berated-
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10833 Posts
April 28 2008 21:50 GMT
#41
Truedoku
ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-28 22:23:12
April 28 2008 22:22 GMT
#42
On April 28 2008 23:57 berated- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2008 14:18 azndsh wrote:
aren't sudoku SAT solvers extremely inefficient? unless you formulate the problem way differently from what I have in mind


That's really kind of irrelevant to the project. I'm taking a boolean satisfiability class and we have to do a final project related to boolean equations. Considering I'm not a total badass, I knew I wasn't going to come up with the next great thing such as WalkSAT or Davis Putnam or GSAT, any of the SAT solving techniques that were monumental upon release. So I was left with two options, I could either find some current research and write an 8 page paper on it, or I could code up an algorithm.

Reading conference papers didn't strike me as overly fun, so I went with a coding project. I could then do something like just pass a boolean equation to an algorithm and try to solve it, which would have got the job done but is a little bland. So I sought out something that would at least be enjoyable.

As for the original question, my first response would have to be no. Using DP, a true sudoku puzzle ( one with only one answer and requiring no search techniques ) would actually require only unit propagation while solving the algorithm. Of course, you would have to define what it is inefficient compared to. Its obviously better than a try all possibilities solution. Are there other algorithms out there that might do better? I have no idea. I wasnt studying Sudoku, I was studying boolean equations, so I apologize that I can't give you a better answer.

I guess you would have to make that judgment call:

My technique ( learned from the work of others who have already done this - I'm just an undergrad, I can't be doing monumental work in my field ):

There are 729 variables - one for every possible number in every possible cell. These are represented by a 3 digit string - the row, the column, and the number.

So 111 refers to a one being in the upper left most box, and will be a 1 if there is a 1 there, 0 otherwise. A - in front represents that the boolean is negated. so -111 refers to Not a 1 in the upper left hand box

Then you have to generate the equation, it will be in CNF form -

So the first thing to check is that there is a 1-9 in every cell.
so, 111 v 112 v 113 v 114 v 115 v 116 v 117 v 118 v 119
but then you need to make sure there aren't more than one
so
-111 v -112, -111 v -113 . . . etc

Repeat for rows, columns, and boxes.

And solve.

Edit: Okay, well yes I would say that having a SAT solver for a 9x9 sudoku puzzle is a little over the top. I knew that it was for a 9x9, but I guess I didn't realy realize how much over the top it was. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm using a lot of java classes - trying to really modularize my code to make it easier to understand and write.

Using strictly ints and try all possibilities it takes java about 64 ms to solve a sudoku puzzle. Using my sat solver it takes about 400ms to solve - however, the largest time with my solver is keeping track of which variables I flipped and which ones I didn't, because I have to store and reset the variables while backtracking.

It might be kind of interesting to mod my program and then try to see some results. I've seen some sat solvers that use strictly ints ( as i described the 111 stuff above, all that is ints while i use 4 different wrapper classes to keep the method writing short). I think that if I were go get my program working in that state, and then we compared the run times you would see a lot closer of a contest.

Where I think the SAT solver would really shine would be on the larger puzzles for a generalized sudoku puzzle of size nxn. I would guess that even at 16x16 the sat solver ( if done properly with int values instead of classes ) would already start to out due the try all possibilities approach.

Once again though, I had fun with the project and truly believe it will still get me an A, so I'm not too worried about the efficiency. Hope this explain things a little better, and thanks for the thought provoking question.



yeah... with 729 variables and thousands of restrictions, it seems like it would take a very long amount of time for non-trivial puzzles. I only ask because we were each asked to make a SAT solver and puzzle generator in one of my CS classes. We even had a competition to see who had the best solver in the end. One really simple and effective heuristic is to assume that all your variables are false at the beginning, which in this case is true 8/9 of the time.

I ended up doing a 4x4 version of sudoku puzzles, but that was relatively straightforward and ran very quickly.
berated-
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1134 Posts
April 29 2008 00:11 GMT
#43
On April 29 2008 07:22 azndsh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2008 23:57 berated- wrote:
On April 28 2008 14:18 azndsh wrote:
aren't sudoku SAT solvers extremely inefficient? unless you formulate the problem way differently from what I have in mind


That's really kind of irrelevant to the project. I'm taking a boolean satisfiability class and we have to do a final project related to boolean equations. Considering I'm not a total badass, I knew I wasn't going to come up with the next great thing such as WalkSAT or Davis Putnam or GSAT, any of the SAT solving techniques that were monumental upon release. So I was left with two options, I could either find some current research and write an 8 page paper on it, or I could code up an algorithm.

Reading conference papers didn't strike me as overly fun, so I went with a coding project. I could then do something like just pass a boolean equation to an algorithm and try to solve it, which would have got the job done but is a little bland. So I sought out something that would at least be enjoyable.

As for the original question, my first response would have to be no. Using DP, a true sudoku puzzle ( one with only one answer and requiring no search techniques ) would actually require only unit propagation while solving the algorithm. Of course, you would have to define what it is inefficient compared to. Its obviously better than a try all possibilities solution. Are there other algorithms out there that might do better? I have no idea. I wasnt studying Sudoku, I was studying boolean equations, so I apologize that I can't give you a better answer.

I guess you would have to make that judgment call:

My technique ( learned from the work of others who have already done this - I'm just an undergrad, I can't be doing monumental work in my field ):

There are 729 variables - one for every possible number in every possible cell. These are represented by a 3 digit string - the row, the column, and the number.

So 111 refers to a one being in the upper left most box, and will be a 1 if there is a 1 there, 0 otherwise. A - in front represents that the boolean is negated. so -111 refers to Not a 1 in the upper left hand box

Then you have to generate the equation, it will be in CNF form -

So the first thing to check is that there is a 1-9 in every cell.
so, 111 v 112 v 113 v 114 v 115 v 116 v 117 v 118 v 119
but then you need to make sure there aren't more than one
so
-111 v -112, -111 v -113 . . . etc

Repeat for rows, columns, and boxes.

And solve.

Edit: Okay, well yes I would say that having a SAT solver for a 9x9 sudoku puzzle is a little over the top. I knew that it was for a 9x9, but I guess I didn't realy realize how much over the top it was. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm using a lot of java classes - trying to really modularize my code to make it easier to understand and write.

Using strictly ints and try all possibilities it takes java about 64 ms to solve a sudoku puzzle. Using my sat solver it takes about 400ms to solve - however, the largest time with my solver is keeping track of which variables I flipped and which ones I didn't, because I have to store and reset the variables while backtracking.

It might be kind of interesting to mod my program and then try to see some results. I've seen some sat solvers that use strictly ints ( as i described the 111 stuff above, all that is ints while i use 4 different wrapper classes to keep the method writing short). I think that if I were go get my program working in that state, and then we compared the run times you would see a lot closer of a contest.

Where I think the SAT solver would really shine would be on the larger puzzles for a generalized sudoku puzzle of size nxn. I would guess that even at 16x16 the sat solver ( if done properly with int values instead of classes ) would already start to out due the try all possibilities approach.

Once again though, I had fun with the project and truly believe it will still get me an A, so I'm not too worried about the efficiency. Hope this explain things a little better, and thanks for the thought provoking question.



yeah... with 729 variables and thousands of restrictions, it seems like it would take a very long amount of time for non-trivial puzzles. I only ask because we were each asked to make a SAT solver and puzzle generator in one of my CS classes. We even had a competition to see who had the best solver in the end. One really simple and effective heuristic is to assume that all your variables are false at the beginning, which in this case is true 8/9 of the time.

I ended up doing a 4x4 version of sudoku puzzles, but that was relatively straightforward and ran very quickly.


While it does take a long time relatively, under half a second to solve a sudoku puzzle is still pretty fast imo. As far as the competition part, that sounds awesome. They have a national sat competition every year that my prof has been to. Of course the people who enter those are the people that created most of the algorithms that we studied this year.

I talked to my professor about holding one at our school when he got to teach his boolean SAT course again, but considering our honors seminar class has 2 people in it, I doubt it would be much fun. Plus I'm graduating so I wouldn't even get to stay around to enjoy it.
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
April 29 2008 00:13 GMT
#44
sudoku=> songoku

[image loading]
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 12m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft600
PiGStarcraft553
RuFF_SC2 169
oGsTOP 51
CosmosSc2 43
Ketroc 32
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 49
Terrorterran 15
Dota 2
Trikslyr45
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
summit1g7431
minikerr20
Other Games
gofns18024
tarik_tv9875
JimRising 469
C9.Mang0383
Maynarde162
XaKoH 90
NeuroSwarm83
ViBE75
JuggernautJason16
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1849
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta22
• EnkiAlexander 20
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• Scarra1089
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 12m
CrankTV Team League
8h 12m
WardiTV Qualifier
9h 12m
Epic.LAN
10h 12m
Big Brain Bouts
13h 12m
SHIN vs Elazer
Percival vs Nicoract
Reynor vs Lambo
Replay Cast
21h 12m
RSL Revival
1d 6h
Clem vs Lambo
Scarlett vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
1d 7h
Epic.LAN
1d 10h
IPSL
1d 13h
Dragon vs Hawk
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Trap
herO vs SHIN
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
IPSL
2 days
Bonyth vs Ret
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-07-13
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
Escore Tournament S3: W3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 1
Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E3
Logitech G Connect 2026
StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.