• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:24
CEST 11:24
KST 18:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Evil Geniuses - shutting down14ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier5Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League55Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.167
StarCraft 2
General
Evil Geniuses - shutting down REPORT: StarCraft 2: Remastered In Development How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted
Tourneys
ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 548 Shining Bright The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train
Brood War
General
Starcraft player cRuZa Passed away. Young Players Tournament Announced by SOOP Rollback Netcode in Brood War SCHNAIL now supports Remastered BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 2v2v2v2 Tournament [ASL22] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) 50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion!
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
How Much Genes Contribute to…
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8431 users

[R] I need a name - Page 3

Blogs > berated-
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10833 Posts
April 28 2008 21:50 GMT
#41
Truedoku
ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-28 22:23:12
April 28 2008 22:22 GMT
#42
On April 28 2008 23:57 berated- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2008 14:18 azndsh wrote:
aren't sudoku SAT solvers extremely inefficient? unless you formulate the problem way differently from what I have in mind


That's really kind of irrelevant to the project. I'm taking a boolean satisfiability class and we have to do a final project related to boolean equations. Considering I'm not a total badass, I knew I wasn't going to come up with the next great thing such as WalkSAT or Davis Putnam or GSAT, any of the SAT solving techniques that were monumental upon release. So I was left with two options, I could either find some current research and write an 8 page paper on it, or I could code up an algorithm.

Reading conference papers didn't strike me as overly fun, so I went with a coding project. I could then do something like just pass a boolean equation to an algorithm and try to solve it, which would have got the job done but is a little bland. So I sought out something that would at least be enjoyable.

As for the original question, my first response would have to be no. Using DP, a true sudoku puzzle ( one with only one answer and requiring no search techniques ) would actually require only unit propagation while solving the algorithm. Of course, you would have to define what it is inefficient compared to. Its obviously better than a try all possibilities solution. Are there other algorithms out there that might do better? I have no idea. I wasnt studying Sudoku, I was studying boolean equations, so I apologize that I can't give you a better answer.

I guess you would have to make that judgment call:

My technique ( learned from the work of others who have already done this - I'm just an undergrad, I can't be doing monumental work in my field ):

There are 729 variables - one for every possible number in every possible cell. These are represented by a 3 digit string - the row, the column, and the number.

So 111 refers to a one being in the upper left most box, and will be a 1 if there is a 1 there, 0 otherwise. A - in front represents that the boolean is negated. so -111 refers to Not a 1 in the upper left hand box

Then you have to generate the equation, it will be in CNF form -

So the first thing to check is that there is a 1-9 in every cell.
so, 111 v 112 v 113 v 114 v 115 v 116 v 117 v 118 v 119
but then you need to make sure there aren't more than one
so
-111 v -112, -111 v -113 . . . etc

Repeat for rows, columns, and boxes.

And solve.

Edit: Okay, well yes I would say that having a SAT solver for a 9x9 sudoku puzzle is a little over the top. I knew that it was for a 9x9, but I guess I didn't realy realize how much over the top it was. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm using a lot of java classes - trying to really modularize my code to make it easier to understand and write.

Using strictly ints and try all possibilities it takes java about 64 ms to solve a sudoku puzzle. Using my sat solver it takes about 400ms to solve - however, the largest time with my solver is keeping track of which variables I flipped and which ones I didn't, because I have to store and reset the variables while backtracking.

It might be kind of interesting to mod my program and then try to see some results. I've seen some sat solvers that use strictly ints ( as i described the 111 stuff above, all that is ints while i use 4 different wrapper classes to keep the method writing short). I think that if I were go get my program working in that state, and then we compared the run times you would see a lot closer of a contest.

Where I think the SAT solver would really shine would be on the larger puzzles for a generalized sudoku puzzle of size nxn. I would guess that even at 16x16 the sat solver ( if done properly with int values instead of classes ) would already start to out due the try all possibilities approach.

Once again though, I had fun with the project and truly believe it will still get me an A, so I'm not too worried about the efficiency. Hope this explain things a little better, and thanks for the thought provoking question.



yeah... with 729 variables and thousands of restrictions, it seems like it would take a very long amount of time for non-trivial puzzles. I only ask because we were each asked to make a SAT solver and puzzle generator in one of my CS classes. We even had a competition to see who had the best solver in the end. One really simple and effective heuristic is to assume that all your variables are false at the beginning, which in this case is true 8/9 of the time.

I ended up doing a 4x4 version of sudoku puzzles, but that was relatively straightforward and ran very quickly.
berated-
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1134 Posts
April 29 2008 00:11 GMT
#43
On April 29 2008 07:22 azndsh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2008 23:57 berated- wrote:
On April 28 2008 14:18 azndsh wrote:
aren't sudoku SAT solvers extremely inefficient? unless you formulate the problem way differently from what I have in mind


That's really kind of irrelevant to the project. I'm taking a boolean satisfiability class and we have to do a final project related to boolean equations. Considering I'm not a total badass, I knew I wasn't going to come up with the next great thing such as WalkSAT or Davis Putnam or GSAT, any of the SAT solving techniques that were monumental upon release. So I was left with two options, I could either find some current research and write an 8 page paper on it, or I could code up an algorithm.

Reading conference papers didn't strike me as overly fun, so I went with a coding project. I could then do something like just pass a boolean equation to an algorithm and try to solve it, which would have got the job done but is a little bland. So I sought out something that would at least be enjoyable.

As for the original question, my first response would have to be no. Using DP, a true sudoku puzzle ( one with only one answer and requiring no search techniques ) would actually require only unit propagation while solving the algorithm. Of course, you would have to define what it is inefficient compared to. Its obviously better than a try all possibilities solution. Are there other algorithms out there that might do better? I have no idea. I wasnt studying Sudoku, I was studying boolean equations, so I apologize that I can't give you a better answer.

I guess you would have to make that judgment call:

My technique ( learned from the work of others who have already done this - I'm just an undergrad, I can't be doing monumental work in my field ):

There are 729 variables - one for every possible number in every possible cell. These are represented by a 3 digit string - the row, the column, and the number.

So 111 refers to a one being in the upper left most box, and will be a 1 if there is a 1 there, 0 otherwise. A - in front represents that the boolean is negated. so -111 refers to Not a 1 in the upper left hand box

Then you have to generate the equation, it will be in CNF form -

So the first thing to check is that there is a 1-9 in every cell.
so, 111 v 112 v 113 v 114 v 115 v 116 v 117 v 118 v 119
but then you need to make sure there aren't more than one
so
-111 v -112, -111 v -113 . . . etc

Repeat for rows, columns, and boxes.

And solve.

Edit: Okay, well yes I would say that having a SAT solver for a 9x9 sudoku puzzle is a little over the top. I knew that it was for a 9x9, but I guess I didn't realy realize how much over the top it was. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm using a lot of java classes - trying to really modularize my code to make it easier to understand and write.

Using strictly ints and try all possibilities it takes java about 64 ms to solve a sudoku puzzle. Using my sat solver it takes about 400ms to solve - however, the largest time with my solver is keeping track of which variables I flipped and which ones I didn't, because I have to store and reset the variables while backtracking.

It might be kind of interesting to mod my program and then try to see some results. I've seen some sat solvers that use strictly ints ( as i described the 111 stuff above, all that is ints while i use 4 different wrapper classes to keep the method writing short). I think that if I were go get my program working in that state, and then we compared the run times you would see a lot closer of a contest.

Where I think the SAT solver would really shine would be on the larger puzzles for a generalized sudoku puzzle of size nxn. I would guess that even at 16x16 the sat solver ( if done properly with int values instead of classes ) would already start to out due the try all possibilities approach.

Once again though, I had fun with the project and truly believe it will still get me an A, so I'm not too worried about the efficiency. Hope this explain things a little better, and thanks for the thought provoking question.



yeah... with 729 variables and thousands of restrictions, it seems like it would take a very long amount of time for non-trivial puzzles. I only ask because we were each asked to make a SAT solver and puzzle generator in one of my CS classes. We even had a competition to see who had the best solver in the end. One really simple and effective heuristic is to assume that all your variables are false at the beginning, which in this case is true 8/9 of the time.

I ended up doing a 4x4 version of sudoku puzzles, but that was relatively straightforward and ran very quickly.


While it does take a long time relatively, under half a second to solve a sudoku puzzle is still pretty fast imo. As far as the competition part, that sounds awesome. They have a national sat competition every year that my prof has been to. Of course the people who enter those are the people that created most of the algorithms that we studied this year.

I talked to my professor about holding one at our school when he got to teach his boolean SAT course again, but considering our honors seminar class has 2 people in it, I doubt it would be much fun. Plus I'm graduating so I wouldn't even get to stay around to enjoy it.
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
April 29 2008 00:13 GMT
#44
sudoku=> songoku

[image loading]
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
FEL
18:00
ScienceCraft - Day 1
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 81
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 17410
Bisu 549
Jaedong 448
firebathero 360
Hyuk 290
Stork 227
BeSt 203
Mong 173
EffOrt 101
ggaemo 60
[ Show more ]
Barracks 54
NaDa 46
Shinee 45
Trap 22
Bale 20
Terrorterran 17
yabsab 16
zelot 9
Free 3
Dota 2
Gorgc6192
Other Games
summit1g10828
Sick242
Livibee208
crisheroes181
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL12216
Other Games
gamesdonequick846
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 17
[ Show 9 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV316
Upcoming Events
Patches Events
3h 36m
AI Arena Tournament
7h 36m
FEL
1d
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d
Replay Cast
1d 13h
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
SHIN vs GuMiho
Clem vs Classic
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSC
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
BSL Season 23
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2026-27
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.