EPT
Wierd religious question
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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FreeDoM[YA]
Canada855 Posts
P.S do u WANT to go to hell? | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 09 2007 07:46 freedom yay wrote: Because you have the choice to, no?Why would you want to!?!?! | ||
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nA.Inky
United States794 Posts
Instead, I believe evil has more to do with a self-centeredness, and a desire for ever increasing power. In other words, evil will tend to flourish where we put our desires before other people's needs. Evil will tend to flourish when we seek to increase control over other people, other life, the forces of nature. By my own standards, evil is flourishing in modern societies, where division of labor, material values, and status seeking and the desire to dominate are essentially ubiquitous. Division of labor might stand out here, but I mention it because division of labor lends itself very well to evil. Where there is a very profound division of labor, people become cut off from the experiences and needs of other people and the world itself. Thus, evil easily creeps in. Just like infection creeps in where there is a weakened immune system. So, to answer the question, I don't believe being evil at all depends on wanting to be evil. That's not what evil is. Evil is something else, and it comes about indirectly, usually. I believe most of the evil people in the world believe they are doing good. I also believe much evil isn't even the result of evil people, but rather the result of evil conditions, such as are abundant in modern society. Consider how easy it is to be evil, today. It's easy to use all kinds of toxic technology, to consume lots of wasteful products, to drive cars and pollute, to support evil corporations and governments. It's very hard, by comparison, to not do these things. Many of the germans under Hitler were decent, compassionate people, yet evil was done because of them. Just my thoughts... Nick / Inky | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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nA.Inky
United States794 Posts
So, for example, Jesus (and many other religious / radical figures have advocated this) talked about renouncing wealth. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven." He said to put away treasures in heaven, not on Earth, and give no thought to how you would get by tomorrow, because God would take care of that. He preached giving up on violence and instead embracing pacifism. This approach burns out bad karma, whereas revenge seeking tends to keep a circle of bad karma firing along. He preached lack of judgement, telling people to love everyone. So, the point I'm making is that Jesus was telling people how to keep from getting themselves into a situation where they might be compromised. Example: you might want to live a wealthy, extravagent lifestyle. Doing so may require you to work for a government or a corporation that does much evil in the world. You might work for Northrop Grumman, designing or building weapons that will kill mothers, fathers, children, grandparents. You might be designing technologies that will rape the Earth. And so on. (just a tiny example - there are many possibilities.) Thus, without intending to be evil, you are evil. So, in my discussion so far, I'm trying to expand the notion of what evil it is. It's not so simple as just choosing to be evil because evil is cool... that's not how it works. | ||
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nA.Inky
United States794 Posts
Still, I suspect you might be setting up an argument against free will in order to undermine religious arguments. I think to do so in this way is simplistic, because you aren't really taking into account what evil is. | ||
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KH1031
United States862 Posts
Let me try to poke a hole here: Suppose, if I define evil very loosely as "anything that ultimately yields undesirability". To my extent of knowledge, the notion "undesirable" implies that there is no will to do or to act Then, it is a logical fallacy for one to willingly do evil, because then it would mean that one would will to do something by definition implies that there is no will to do or to act. ---- Is there an objective evil? You have to answer yourself that question first. --- On second thought - after reading your initial post again, I've realized that if you believe 100% in Catholicism, then presumably you do have the free will to do everything - including the will to do "evil". | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
If I wanted to attack the Church, I'd take the Sam Harris approach and go after St. Paul and Jesus. And Jesus said a lot of things that are "evil" but I'm not derailing this thread into that discussion. On second thought - after reading your initial post again, I've realized that if you believe 100% in Catholicism, then presumably you do have the free will to do everything - including the will to do "evil". Alright, that's all I'm asking. The definition of evil in this case is whatever you believe you must follow to get into Hell. | ||
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
why would you ask such a question? Anyway, the wiki on "evil" was pretty interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil | ||
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KH1031
United States862 Posts
After some careful thought and more reference information, it seems like you need to believe that there is a free will to freely will yourself to do "evil". Otherwise, if you believe in determinism - then the initial question is not really a valid question. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On December 09 2007 07:40 Jibba wrote: Is it possible to want to be evil? Say you believe in the teachings of Catholicism 100%, do you have the free will to want to go to Hell? Absolutely. | ||
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
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Folca
2235 Posts
On December 09 2007 12:34 Rev0lution wrote: Silly, there is no hell. You sound pretty sure of that, arent you? | ||
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TesisMech
Peru688 Posts
On December 09 2007 12:34 Rev0lution wrote: Silly, there is no hell. 13th really? i predicted 15th  | ||
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aRod
United States758 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
ATM, I don't think we do. | ||
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TesisMech
Peru688 Posts
On December 09 2007 15:02 Jibba wrote: This isn't about Atheism vs. Christianity vs. others (I'm atheist btw), it's just about whether humans have the capacity to do what I said. ATM, I don't think we do. If you want to go to hell, whose stopping you ? | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
and of course, there is no death. there is only life. thus, death understood, even as 'hell,' is just anotehr outlook in life. but at this moment the analysis is a bit tricky. | ||
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
Would anyone want eternal pain and suffering? Not even a masochist, most likely. But is that really a strike against free will? As a determinist myself, I don't really think so. Though it may undermine those Christian arguments that God gives us 'free will to choose him.' This claim always makes me lol. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 10 2007 05:28 TesisMech wrote: No one, but I don't think it's possible to want to go to Hell. Even masochism takes pleasure in pain, but Hell would be displeasure.If you want to go to hell, whose stopping you ? | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On December 10 2007 05:47 Jibba wrote: No one, but I don't think it's possible to want to go to Hell. Even masochism takes pleasure in pain, but Hell would be displeasure. I don't think this is a well-defined question, because it's pretty difficult to understand the concept of Hell. (I think its pretty impossible to completely understand it) | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 10 2007 07:34 fight_or_flight wrote: I don't think this is a well-defined question, because it's pretty difficult to understand the concept of Hell. (I think its pretty impossible to completely understand it) I disagree. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
But how can you understand eternal suffering if you've never experienced it? All of our ideas are based on experiences, and unless you've experienced something, you can only say indirect things about it. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 10 2007 11:53 fight_or_flight wrote: the demand for a 'true understanding of something nonexistent' is silly. there is nothing to understand, thus what you understand is it, and the general impression of the idea is enough. concreteness does apply to individual conceptions and existences, but not for the mental state of one constantly in doubt over one conception or another. there really is no point in pursuing this further. But how can you understand eternal suffering if you've never experienced it? All of our ideas are based on experiences, and unless you've experienced something, you can only say indirect things about it. | ||
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TesisMech
Peru688 Posts
On December 10 2007 13:13 oneofthem wrote: the demand for a 'true understanding of something nonexistent' is silly. there is nothing to understand, thus what you understand is it, and the general impression of the idea is enough. concreteness does apply to individual conceptions and existences, but not for the mental state of one constantly in doubt over one conception or another. there really is no point in pursuing this further. Are you always going to sneak in your beliefs to an hypothetical question? and my response is : If you want to go to hell, you will go to hell. God will not go against your own will and forcefully put you into heaven, if you don't want it. | ||
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lugggy
450 Posts
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 11 2007 02:02 TesisMech wrote: i dont understand what you are trying to sayAre you always going to sneak in your beliefs to an hypothetical question? and my response is : If you want to go to hell, you will go to hell. God will not go against your own will and forcefully put you into heaven, if you don't want it. | ||
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lvatural
United States347 Posts
Hell is just basically infinite displeasure. Now if you enjoy the conventional term "displeasure" then hell would obviously be something of that opposite. So....of course you have the free will of choosing to go to hell.... But if hell is defined as the opposite of what you want...I don't see how choosing to go to hell can be one of rational thought.... | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 11 2007 11:04 lvatural wrote: Yeah, I think that's the conclusion I've come to. Hell is extreme displeasure that's relative to every single person, and by definition it's not possible to want displeasure. Bad question, sorry!@But if hell is defined as the opposite of what you want...I don't see how choosing to go to hell can be one of rational thought.... | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Is it possible to want to be evil? This would come under the Catholic category of Mortal Sin, although evil itself is not a realistic purpose. It is simply consenting to do evil. | ||
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