• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:07
CEST 00:07
KST 07:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments1[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes126BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch2Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues
Tourneys
KSL Week 80 Stellar Fest StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Diplomacy, Cosmonarchy Edition ASL20 General Discussion Soulkey on ASL S20 ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch [ASL20] Ro16 Group C Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Borderlands 3 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Big Programming Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Too Many LANs? Tournament Ov…
TrAiDoS
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1639 users

SC2 Will Be A Completely New Game

Blogs > lugggy
Post a Reply
lugggy
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
450 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-01 14:50:05
October 01 2007 14:46 GMT
#1
This is only my theory, and I'm making it a blog entry for several reasons. #1 I don't want to start a bunch of flamewars over it, it's just my thoughts; #2 I would like to be as casual as I want and not feel obligated to answer every flame.

When I look at people talking about SC2 I constantly see people talking about it as though it is SCBW with some changes.

I think we have every reason to believe the matchups are going to basically be from scratch. Think back, first, to the matchups of SCBW:

PvP -- optional zeal (depending on map) to goon to reav or temp before or after expo
PvT -- wallin get a tank and mines or siege, and/or N rines and/or CC vs straight to goon, obs, etc.
PvZ -- photon expo or zealot rush vs 2nd hatch ling pump until you can tech, muta harass or lurk contain, hydras vs zeal with storm or whatever, optional sair...
TvT -- get a line of tanks as close to them as possible, get an expo up, keep defending and expoing, scan a lot and drop wherever vulnerable while expanding constantly
TvZ -- m&m pressure vs sunkens, lurk or muta comes to harass while zerg gets more bases. terran might expand earlier. details.
ZvZ -- lings and mutas. maybe get an expo in the case where neither should attack. all-in vs the expo, or vs the spire, etc. etc.

Whether my descriptions are outdated or just plain noob and wrong, that is not really the point. Take the right descriptions of each matchup. They are created by the way the units of each race, the tech trees and build times, all line up together, combined with the travel times provided on each map. The stats, the abilities available, all create these trees of possible events in which all strategies for the matchup lay.

People talk about an SC2 feature as though it is going to effect SCBW TvP, for instance. IMO this is just plain wrong because the matchups in SC2 are going to be as fresh and new as War3's were, as BW's were for SC Vanilla, etc. etc.

One reason is that SC2 has changed the armor and unit types system and the stats of almost every unit, not to mention how they move and fire, not to mention available upgrades and abilities and how powerful they actually are. Basic buildings have new build times, new health, and the maps will be new too.

Right now the game is unbalanced. Will they balance it in a way that creates similar, familiar tensions of SCBW's corresponding matchups? Obviously not. No more than War3's Human vs Orc was at all like War2. With so much change it is going to have to be a completely new matchup.

Another thing to point out is Blizz's reluctance to change things that effect their already-made Single Player. They acknowledged at some point that certain BW units should have been weaker, but they would not change them because they would have to modify the campaign, which they wouldn't or couldn't do. They are currently, designing a campaign around the units they have made. So they are going to be reluctant at some point to make certain changes. This doesn't mean we aren't going to get what we want but it means that there will be arbitrary, new things that they will want to have in place, making it impossible for SC2's matchups to be made to fit the corresponding SCBW matchups, even if they wanted to. If a certain level requires such and such, then they will keep it such and such, meaning the SC2 matchups will have to achieve balance another way--a new way, which means, if any such cases exist at all, SC2 will have new, unfamiliar matchups and not the ones from SCBW that people are basing their theorycrafting off of.

So for all our theorycraft purposes, if you agree with me, the matchups in SC2 could all be akin to SCBW's ZvZ, or TvZ, for all we know. It might play out that way. SC2's TvP might be more like SCBW's PvP. Who really knows? So worrying about the macro phase of TvP or PvZ, is partially moot because we don't know how important, if at all, that feature will be in any of the new matchups of SC2.

Take for instance, all this talk about MBS. MBS would not "ruin" every matchup of SCBW, only certain ones, for the current balance and maps we have come to accept as standard (these weren't created by Blizz in the slightest, either). For all we know, SC2 might be better with MBS, might not. Might not matter either way.

*****
A little effort please, this isnt a forum for just posting every link on the internet.
Fen
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Australia1848 Posts
October 01 2007 16:05 GMT
#2
I agree with this and direct my comments to core gameplay aspects when playing. It is stupid to talk about game balance before 90% of us have even played it.

That being said, while sc2 is a new game, it should still stick to the things that made starcraft 1 great and not be an entirely different game that just uses starcraft 1's reputation for sales. This is why I feel that the core gameplay aspects of starcraft 2 need to be discussed with relation to starcraft 1.
lugggy
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
450 Posts
October 01 2007 16:38 GMT
#3
I don't understand how you can say you agree with me. We can discuss SC2 in terms of SCBW no more than we could have discussed War3 in SCBW terms during its beta. I agree that we _should_ be shooting for a game that continues SCBW's play, but all signs point to no.
A little effort please, this isnt a forum for just posting every link on the internet.
il0seonpurpose
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Korea (South)5638 Posts
October 01 2007 19:33 GMT
#4
Yeah, doesn't look like if there's gonna be alot of similarities, MBS a big issue, the race matchups, but I also believe the creators of the game are not looking through the eyes of the (Korean) progaming but rather for the general popularity where people play it just for fun.


BTW so is there no more zealot speed upgrades because they rush in to attack?
cava
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
United States1035 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-01 20:18:08
October 01 2007 20:15 GMT
#5
MBS in my eyes is a natural progression in RTS games. Its like from warcraft 1 you could'nt select more than 1 unit at a time and in warcraft 2 you could. Its just the next step.
cava!
Waves
Profile Joined August 2007
Australia185 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-04 11:54:48
October 04 2007 11:53 GMT
#6
Just for your information, Blizzard's reluctance to change units because it would affect single-player too much is a problem specific to StarCraft: Brood War (and Vanilla). It won't apply for StarCraft 2, and it doesn't apply for WarCraft 3 either. Single player units are now independent from multiplayer balance changes.

Edit: And yes, you're right about StarCraft 2. The matchups will not play out like StarCraft 1. Blizzard has said as much, clearly and directly. They don't want the strategies to be the same. Only the "feel" of the game. It's a new game that will feel like StarCraft - if they manage to accomplish what they've set out to do.
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
October 05 2007 04:54 GMT
#7
On October 02 2007 05:15 cava wrote:
MBS in my eyes is a natural progression in RTS games. Its like from warcraft 1 you could'nt select more than 1 unit at a time and in warcraft 2 you could. Its just the next step.


Just to nitpick, you could select 4 units at a time in WC1. I know that in Dune 2 you could only select 1 unit. Don't know enough about games to know if any other games only allowed 1 unit selection
Trucy Wright is hot
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 53m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub169
Nathanias 122
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 14578
Dewaltoss 104
LaStScan 98
Shine 51
NaDa 16
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm152
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1288
kRYSTAL_15
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr60
Other Games
summit1g7629
tarik_tv5619
FrodaN3954
Grubby2544
gofns2285
Sick142
C9.Mang0130
KnowMe109
XaKoH 102
ViBE48
PPMD39
Chillindude24
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 40
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Sammyuel 81
• RyuSc2 47
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 17
• FirePhoenix16
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4325
Other Games
• imaqtpie946
• Scarra883
• Shiphtur247
Upcoming Events
Korean StarCraft League
4h 53m
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
9h 53m
RSL Revival
11h 53m
Reynor vs Cure
TBD vs Zoun
OSC
22h 53m
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 9h
RSL Revival
1d 11h
Classic vs TBD
Online Event
1d 17h
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
LiuLi Cup
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.