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Hey everyone,
Making this as sort of a statement but didn't want it to feel too official. I'm basically looking to explain our thinking and bring show the BW community that we do still care about you guys.
So who the hell am I? I've been a member here since 2008 and I'm red but most people probably haven't seen my name around. In short: I'm employed by the org, Team Liquid, and I'm officially a project manager. I started off helping out on Liquipedia shortly after launch, and was promoted to Liquipedia staff before getting too busy with life and sort of drifting away from StarCraft around 2012. I came back a couple of years later, taking over the day to day operations of LiquidDota, a site I ran until 2017 when I took a journalism gig in esports. After that, shortlived, venture, I reached out to Naz and Plexa, and was lucky enough to started working full time for Liquid in late 2018. A 10-year long dream being fulfilled 
So how do I fit in with TSL? I've been the guy behind the scenes pulling the strings. I don't care much to be well known in the community, I'd rather do awesome shit and have a team of people take credit. I believe my official title for TSL 5 is "Tournament Director", which means I run the day-to-day operations with input from a bunch of people.
It was super exciting to see the reception to TSL 5. Everyone was super happy and I don't think I spotted a single negative comment. There were some questions regarding Brood War and the possibility of hosting a BW TSL. Reading them, I feel like the BW community deserves answers regarding a BW TSL. I'm not going to beat around the bush and will just say that it's extremely unlikely that will happen. Currently, the foreign Brood War community is small and we feel like we couldn't put on a show worthy of the TSL legacy. And that's not on you guys, that's on us. I grew up with TSL so if I can't do a great job with it, I'd rather not do it at all. And that's pretty much where we stand.
That doesn't mean that we don't care about the Brood War community or that we don't support it. While this hasn't been 100% obvious, we supported the last season of the STPL and we're currently in a multi-tournament deal with the BSL. The reason we asked to display Liquipedia as the sponsor, instead of TLnet, is because we want to drive traffic to the Brood War wiki and, hopefully, get a few editors out of it (seriously guys, go edit the wiki. it needs the help). So rather than trying to go out and do something ourselves, we chose to support people who are already doing a great job.
If you have any questions, please let me know and I'd be happy to answer them!
 
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Extremely grateful u guys keep supporting broodwar specially with the broodwar section and with the monetary support for STPL anf BSL.I truly believe that BSL is doing great if we consider is a new product and doesnt have much history behind it.i think right now the scene is doing really decent when it comes to tourneys numbers.So i can see some kind of TSL special tournament being a sucess. doesnt need to be a 30k $ tour. Specially that TSL 1&2 were one of best foreigner bw tourneys in history? anyway thanks and hope your new project is a sucess.mb this will help to make something for us in the future.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
I just want to say a big thanks for being so helpful over the last 8-9 months when dealing with me and helping out STPL and of course the help you've been giving BSL. I really do appreciate it and while I realise from your post right now the BW community is a bit too small to do the TSL justice, im certain myself and ZZZero and all the other TO's have a common goal to grow it again so hopefully in a few years we can make the audience much bigger again so it'll be more possible to do a great job with it again! :D
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Why do Swedes always drink julmust around Christmas? Because it's a Christmas must
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Bisutopia19397 Posts
Would TL get behind putting their name on an online only TSL for BW? If prize money (maybe 15k?) and staff could be put together by community members for the tournament, would TL be able to help through the creation of graphics and promotional videos?
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FuDDx
United States5018 Posts
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On April 23 2020 21:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Would TL get behind putting their name on an online only TSL for BW? If prize money (maybe 15k?) and staff could be put together by community members for the tournament, would TL be able to help through the creation of graphics and promotional videos?
So while I don't want to completely shoot you down, I'm going to be completely honest with you: that's no small feat you're asking for. The most glaring issue is the prize pool. Getting a15k prize pool is a BIG investment. And I'm not talking from partners, I'm talking about work needed from the organizing staff. No one is going to give you a significant investment. While I'm super happy with the partners we've managed to secure for TSL 5 (to be announced tomorrow), I'm also fully aware that they won't come back unless we can provide them with some value. That's still possible in SC2 but with the viewing numbers you'll get for a BW event... I wouldn't say it's not possible but it's so much harder. You'd have to lower the amount you ask from each partner while maintaining the same standard. That means you have to work a lot harder. You'll need a big staff of people with, at the very least some, account managing background.
I don't want to seem overly negative so I won't get into other, smaller, issues. But believe me when I say this: I've just gone through getting a TSL off the ground. Take the amount of work you think it is and multiply that z3-5, and that's the actual work required. I have a rather big group of people helping me right now and if even one of them would go away, my workload would increase by an insane amount.
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I was a little suprised about TSL coming back. SC2 seems so healthy right now ... almost over-saturated, so I had hopes the parched soil that is foreign BW gets some love. TL is not to blame for the state foreign BW is in, remastered Ladder though...
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United States4883 Posts
On April 24 2020 04:20 Julmust wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2020 21:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Would TL get behind putting their name on an online only TSL for BW? If prize money (maybe 15k?) and staff could be put together by community members for the tournament, would TL be able to help through the creation of graphics and promotional videos? So while I don't want to completely shoot you down, I'm going to be completely honest with you: that's no small feat you're asking for. The most glaring issue is the prize pool. Getting a15k prize pool is a BIG investment. And I'm not talking from partners, I'm talking about work needed from the organizing staff. No one is going to give you a significant investment. While I'm super happy with the partners we've managed to secure for TSL 5 (to be announced tomorrow), I'm also fully aware that they won't come back unless we can provide them with some value. That's still possible in SC2 but with the viewing numbers you'll get for a BW event... I wouldn't say it's not possible but it's so much harder. You'd have to lower the amount you ask from each partner while maintaining the same standard. That means you have to work a lot harder. You'll need a big staff of people with, at the very least some, account managing background. I don't want to seem overly negative so I won't get into other, smaller, issues. But believe me when I say this: I've just gone through getting a TSL off the ground. Take the amount of work you think it is and multiply that z3-5, and that's the actual work required. I have a rather big group of people helping me right now and if even one of them would go away, my workload would increase by an insane amount.
I think you're underestimating how many people in the BW community would work really hard for something like that. I like to point to Qikz as someone who has impressively created his own graphics, overlays, and promo videos while at the same time managing a league and weekly casts while experiencing a negative return. BisuDagger has also put together several tournaments and showmatches himself, so he's not completely blind to the amount of work that goes into that sort of thing. We actually have a ton of individuals in the community who are quite experienced with tournament organization, moreso than maybe any other esports community.
It's okay to recognize that BW probably doesn't have a great return on investment, but it's a community that has ached to get something going for close to 10 years since the collapse of Kespa. You admit that it's not an impossibility. I urge you to look into it further, talk to people like ZZZero, Qikz, BisuDagger, CasterMuse, and others to get a better idea of how an infrastructure could be built with the resources we have available.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Indeed john. If someone is willing to gather the 15k and we have a lot of experienced organizers and dedicated individuals who would help with all aspects including and coverage (it might even kick me out of retirement haha), then I don't see a reason why a BW TSL shouldn't be attempted. BW passion and hardworking TOs go hand in hand imo as noted above.
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On April 24 2020 10:14 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2020 04:20 Julmust wrote:On April 23 2020 21:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Would TL get behind putting their name on an online only TSL for BW? If prize money (maybe 15k?) and staff could be put together by community members for the tournament, would TL be able to help through the creation of graphics and promotional videos? So while I don't want to completely shoot you down, I'm going to be completely honest with you: that's no small feat you're asking for. The most glaring issue is the prize pool. Getting a15k prize pool is a BIG investment. And I'm not talking from partners, I'm talking about work needed from the organizing staff. No one is going to give you a significant investment. While I'm super happy with the partners we've managed to secure for TSL 5 (to be announced tomorrow), I'm also fully aware that they won't come back unless we can provide them with some value. That's still possible in SC2 but with the viewing numbers you'll get for a BW event... I wouldn't say it's not possible but it's so much harder. You'd have to lower the amount you ask from each partner while maintaining the same standard. That means you have to work a lot harder. You'll need a big staff of people with, at the very least some, account managing background. I don't want to seem overly negative so I won't get into other, smaller, issues. But believe me when I say this: I've just gone through getting a TSL off the ground. Take the amount of work you think it is and multiply that z3-5, and that's the actual work required. I have a rather big group of people helping me right now and if even one of them would go away, my workload would increase by an insane amount. I think you're underestimating how many people in the BW community would work really hard for something like that. I like to point to Qikz as someone who has impressively created his own graphics, overlays, and promo videos while at the same time managing a league and weekly casts while experiencing a negative return. BisuDagger has also put together several tournaments and showmatches himself, so he's not completely blind to the amount of work that goes into that sort of thing. We actually have a ton of individuals in the community who are quite experienced with tournament organization, moreso than maybe any other esports community. It's okay to recognize that BW probably doesn't have a great return on investment, but it's a community that has ached to get something going for close to 10 years since the collapse of Kespa. You admit that it's not an impossibility. I urge you to look into it further, talk to people like ZZZero, Qikz, BisuDagger, CasterMuse, and others to get a better idea of how an infrastructure could be built with the resources we have available.
Don't forget Rus_Brain and the whole Russian community.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 24 2020 19:57 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2020 10:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On April 24 2020 04:20 Julmust wrote:On April 23 2020 21:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Would TL get behind putting their name on an online only TSL for BW? If prize money (maybe 15k?) and staff could be put together by community members for the tournament, would TL be able to help through the creation of graphics and promotional videos? So while I don't want to completely shoot you down, I'm going to be completely honest with you: that's no small feat you're asking for. The most glaring issue is the prize pool. Getting a15k prize pool is a BIG investment. And I'm not talking from partners, I'm talking about work needed from the organizing staff. No one is going to give you a significant investment. While I'm super happy with the partners we've managed to secure for TSL 5 (to be announced tomorrow), I'm also fully aware that they won't come back unless we can provide them with some value. That's still possible in SC2 but with the viewing numbers you'll get for a BW event... I wouldn't say it's not possible but it's so much harder. You'd have to lower the amount you ask from each partner while maintaining the same standard. That means you have to work a lot harder. You'll need a big staff of people with, at the very least some, account managing background. I don't want to seem overly negative so I won't get into other, smaller, issues. But believe me when I say this: I've just gone through getting a TSL off the ground. Take the amount of work you think it is and multiply that z3-5, and that's the actual work required. I have a rather big group of people helping me right now and if even one of them would go away, my workload would increase by an insane amount. I think you're underestimating how many people in the BW community would work really hard for something like that. I like to point to Qikz as someone who has impressively created his own graphics, overlays, and promo videos while at the same time managing a league and weekly casts while experiencing a negative return. BisuDagger has also put together several tournaments and showmatches himself, so he's not completely blind to the amount of work that goes into that sort of thing. We actually have a ton of individuals in the community who are quite experienced with tournament organization, moreso than maybe any other esports community. It's okay to recognize that BW probably doesn't have a great return on investment, but it's a community that has ached to get something going for close to 10 years since the collapse of Kespa. You admit that it's not an impossibility. I urge you to look into it further, talk to people like ZZZero, Qikz, BisuDagger, CasterMuse, and others to get a better idea of how an infrastructure could be built with the resources we have available. Don't forget Rus_Brain and the whole Russian community.
Definitely! My mistake!
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Estonia814 Posts
On April 24 2020 21:28 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2020 19:57 kogeT wrote:On April 24 2020 10:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On April 24 2020 04:20 Julmust wrote:On April 23 2020 21:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Would TL get behind putting their name on an online only TSL for BW? If prize money (maybe 15k?) and staff could be put together by community members for the tournament, would TL be able to help through the creation of graphics and promotional videos? So while I don't want to completely shoot you down, I'm going to be completely honest with you: that's no small feat you're asking for. The most glaring issue is the prize pool. Getting a15k prize pool is a BIG investment. And I'm not talking from partners, I'm talking about work needed from the organizing staff. No one is going to give you a significant investment. While I'm super happy with the partners we've managed to secure for TSL 5 (to be announced tomorrow), I'm also fully aware that they won't come back unless we can provide them with some value. That's still possible in SC2 but with the viewing numbers you'll get for a BW event... I wouldn't say it's not possible but it's so much harder. You'd have to lower the amount you ask from each partner while maintaining the same standard. That means you have to work a lot harder. You'll need a big staff of people with, at the very least some, account managing background. I don't want to seem overly negative so I won't get into other, smaller, issues. But believe me when I say this: I've just gone through getting a TSL off the ground. Take the amount of work you think it is and multiply that z3-5, and that's the actual work required. I have a rather big group of people helping me right now and if even one of them would go away, my workload would increase by an insane amount. I think you're underestimating how many people in the BW community would work really hard for something like that. I like to point to Qikz as someone who has impressively created his own graphics, overlays, and promo videos while at the same time managing a league and weekly casts while experiencing a negative return. BisuDagger has also put together several tournaments and showmatches himself, so he's not completely blind to the amount of work that goes into that sort of thing. We actually have a ton of individuals in the community who are quite experienced with tournament organization, moreso than maybe any other esports community. It's okay to recognize that BW probably doesn't have a great return on investment, but it's a community that has ached to get something going for close to 10 years since the collapse of Kespa. You admit that it's not an impossibility. I urge you to look into it further, talk to people like ZZZero, Qikz, BisuDagger, CasterMuse, and others to get a better idea of how an infrastructure could be built with the resources we have available. Don't forget Rus_Brain and the whole Russian community. Definitely! My mistake!
It's not yours, but Bigfans
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51706 Posts
do you guys have any viewing statistics for bsl/cc last year? because if i was a prospective sponsor, i wouldn't put in $15,000 of prize money for a tournament that doesn't peak at over 1000 viewers concurrently.
you'll have to be super realistic here.
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On April 24 2020 19:57 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2020 10:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On April 24 2020 04:20 Julmust wrote:On April 23 2020 21:58 BisuDagger wrote:
Would TL get behind putting their name on an online only TSL for BW? If prize money (maybe 15k?) and staff could be put together by community members for the tournament, would TL be able to help through the creation of graphics and promotional videos? So while I don't want to completely shoot you down, I'm going to be completely honest with you: that's no small feat you're asking for. The most glaring issue is the prize pool. Getting a15k prize pool is a BIG investment. And I'm not talking from partners, I'm talking about work needed from the organizing staff. No one is going to give you a significant investment. While I'm super happy with the partners we've managed to secure for TSL 5 (to be announced tomorrow), I'm also fully aware that they won't come back unless we can provide them with some value. That's still possible in SC2 but with the viewing numbers you'll get for a BW event... I wouldn't say it's not possible but it's so much harder. You'd have to lower the amount you ask from each partner while maintaining the same standard. That means you have to work a lot harder. You'll need a big staff of people with, at the very least some, account managing background. I don't want to seem overly negative so I won't get into other, smaller, issues. But believe me when I say this: I've just gone through getting a TSL off the ground. Take the amount of work you think it is and multiply that z3-5, and that's the actual work required. I have a rather big group of people helping me right now and if even one of them would go away, my workload would increase by an insane amount. I think you're underestimating how many people in the BW community would work really hard for something like that. I like to point to Qikz as someone who has impressively created his own graphics, overlays, and promo videos while at the same time managing a league and weekly casts while experiencing a negative return. BisuDagger has also put together several tournaments and showmatches himself, so he's not completely blind to the amount of work that goes into that sort of thing. We actually have a ton of individuals in the community who are quite experienced with tournament organization, moreso than maybe any other esports community. It's okay to recognize that BW probably doesn't have a great return on investment, but it's a community that has ached to get something going for close to 10 years since the collapse of Kespa. You admit that it's not an impossibility. I urge you to look into it further, talk to people like ZZZero, Qikz, BisuDagger, CasterMuse, and others to get a better idea of how an infrastructure could be built with the resources we have available. Don't forget Rus_Brain and the whole Russian community.
The corrupted Cup was held last year with a total prize pool of shortly over 10k, offline finals in Moscow with a really nice site and good coverage by some of the best commentators. This year we will make the same thing happen again!
So yeah, as everybody before already said this community has a lot of capacity to organize and also fund tournaments of its own, that should not be underestimated.
I must agree tho that it is hard to impossible to find commercial sponsors who get their money's worth in return through Broodwar events, simple because the exposure generated isn't enough. Today all our bigger tournaments (leagues, offline,) are basically crowdfunded.
In my experience the bigger sponsorships (> 1000,00 €) are always a negative deal for the sponsors afterwards, from the feedback i got.
@OP: TSL 1&2 are my fondest memories when it comes to foreign BW tournaments of all times! Thank you so much for everything you did and for the current support of STPL and BSL!!
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
On April 25 2020 08:28 GTR wrote:
do you guys have any viewing statistics for bsl/cc last year? because if i was a prospective sponsor, i wouldn't put in $15,000 of prize money for a tournament that doesn't peak at over 1000 viewers concurrently.
you'll have to be super realistic here.
It's very much a catch 22. Without the money you can't get the people who draw the viewers, but without the money you can't get the people to draw the viewers in. Zotac for instance hit well over 3k concurrent viewers if I remember correctly and yes you can argue part of that was down to the talent, but it was also due to the fact it was hosted by Zotac an established company.
I think if anything that's the problem with esports. It's extremely top heavy and without significant funding it's very hard for anything to grow on it's own. Even Smash Melee didn't get super popular again until it hit EVO. 15k is very much unrealistic currently for a BW tournament outside of Korea which is sad, but until community channels have a way of working out how to grow bigger to the stage that is viable I don't see anything like that happening.
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On April 26 2020 01:04 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2020 08:28 GTR wrote:
do you guys have any viewing statistics for bsl/cc last year? because if i was a prospective sponsor, i wouldn't put in $15,000 of prize money for a tournament that doesn't peak at over 1000 viewers concurrently.
you'll have to be super realistic here. It's very much a catch 22. Without the money you can't get the people who draw the viewers, but without the money you can't get the people to draw the viewers in. Zotac for instance hit well over 3k concurrent viewers if I remember correctly and yes you can argue part of that was down to the talent, but it was also due to the fact it was hosted by Zotac an established company. I think if anything that's the problem with esports. It's extremely top heavy and without significant funding it's very hard for anything to grow on it's own. Even Smash Melee didn't get super popular again until it hit EVO. 15k is very much unrealistic currently for a BW tournament outside of Korea which is sad, but until community channels have a way of working out how to grow bigger to the stage that is viable I don't see anything like that happening.
Do you mean in sponsored money with commercial interest or in donations, or both? The crowdfunding goal for rcg 2020 is 15, so i guess we gonna see this year it can be done via crowdfunding.
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1584 Posts
Any TSL is amazing from my point of view, no matter if it's SC2 or BW! I know you and your team will do great work with this tournament.
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Hyrule19264 Posts
Any chance of something smaller like a TLS? I only ask because I know basically nothing about organizing or running a tournament of any size.
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On April 23 2020 21:45 Zealously wrote:
Why do Swedes always drink julmust around Christmas? Because it's a Christmas must
Julmust is a yule must
hehe
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EPT
