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On May 30 2007 17:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2007 16:30 tenbagger wrote:
I would recommend a 10-4-2-1 format.
10 for first
4 or second
2 for semis
1 for qualifying
I think it is an accomplishment in itself to consistently qualify for the OSL and it should be rewarded. This system keeps a win more than twice as valuable than a 2nd place finish but still leaves enough room to give a small reward to those who are consistent but never win. i believe that simply qualifying for two starleagues is not worth a 3rd place (child vs iris)
Ok, how about 10-4-3-1
I think that "simply qualifying" is in itself quite an achievement. Especially for those who had to work their way up from the offline qualifiers, advance from the challenge league and then advance again from the dual tournament. We're talking about something like 8 consecutive series wins against really tough competition. I feel strongly that those who consistently qualify for the majors should be credited for their accomplishments.
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Braavos36390 Posts
yeah but when you're making standings that ranks the best, simply qualifying already has the award of another chance to win hence they are rewarded anyway
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
no they aren't. a player that wins once and doesn't qualify nine times vs a player that got to semifinals 7 times and qualified 3 times are rated the same according to 7-2-1
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I think a 5-2-1 system would be the best
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If you count all the special events Yellow won,he would be much higher on the list.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On June 02 2007 17:12 GrandInquisitor wrote:
no they aren't. a player that wins once and doesn't qualify nine times vs a player that got to semifinals 7 times and qualified 3 times are rated the same according to 7-2-1
again, that is where we differ in opinion
if you're going to rank people in the starleague, i don't see why extra points should be given for the baseline requirement--making starleagues
if player A made the starleague 15 times
and player B made the starleague 1 time
which would you say has a better chance of being higher on the ranking? obviously player A right? that's the inherent reward in making it more times
if they couldn't do anything with the qualifications, that's their problem
you are seeing qualification into the OSL as an accomplishment, which it is. however, it's just a PREREQUISITE for the ranking.
this is like complaining that "#2 finishes" or "# of times in semifinals" should be included in the golden mouse... when it clearly ONLY measures wins
this ranking is a projection of top 4 finishes in the major leagues. if you took a look at the list and ask yourself who has the most titles, with very few exceptions, the top 10 or so in the rankings are ALL players who have qualified the most. that is their inherent reward for qualifying a lot: they get lots of chances to make top4.
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so.. no opinions about my idea? 
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If you are going to put that many points for the winner, just do it like the winter olympics, sort by gold, then silver, then bronze. Simpler and just the way you like it 
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Just to know: Hot_Bid, how long have you been following progaming?
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Braavos36390 Posts
i've read the reports since Xellos > Yellow (Olympus Spring 2003) but I've only seriously followed it since Nada > Anytime this past fall (Shinhan2 Fall 2006)
i have though watch all the OSL finals and the last 5-6 MSL finals, i was on a trip to china and just put them all on my ipod
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Well, i guess this is why you'll never understand Yellow's fans 
Yellow was for a while the only zerg who could do shit against terrans on heavily favoured terran maps.
I mean, he lost coca cola osl when vahalla was chosen to be the map played twice. Vahalla was a zerg graveyard, as well as ragnarock. Legacy of char would have been played twice, the result would certainly have been different.
Of course, i can't say Yellow isn't a choker, he did choke against Nada in kpga2 (nobody would thought the kid would become the most achieved pro at the time), maybe against Xellos, probably one of the most amazing series ever (but then again, Xellos was just the man at that time, who else has 3-0 Boxer?), i don't believe so against Casy, he was once again fucked up hard by the maps.
But for years he was the only hope of zerg. He was the only one who could do well enough to get to final/semi and didn't fail miserably with a 3-0. He spent years ranked #2, to different players.
So yes, he was never able to win any real league, only special events (although you would say some of them were pretty damn big, snickers looked a lot more like an SL than a special event) and i perfectly understand why you rate him that way. But for a lot of people around at that time, he represents more than this, he's Boxer rival, he was one of the most consistent pro, if not the most, for a few years, he represented the zerg at very high level until July came.
No other zerg would come close, except Chojja or HOT, but only for a short period of time. Yellow was able to last long, just like Boxer did. And just like Boxer, he was a model for all lot of players at the time.
Watching the finals makes you think Yellow was bad of course, since he lost all of them. But then, all of those who had the chance to see his other games have a different point of view.
I'd say i agree with your ranking (and that's what i voted anyway), because you're right, i'm pretty sure every pro would prefer to be Sync and win once before disapearing than to become Yellow and never ever win. But for fans, it's not that simple. Yellow gets (maybe i should say got now !)a lot of love, while Sync doesn't exactly make the crowds go wild
It all depends from what point of view you consider it. From a pro point of view or from a fan point of view. That's why you'll have trouble making this kind of ranking.
Let's take another example: You can say Nada achieved more than Boxer and i would agree. But you can't exactly call Boxer a choker, he won the 3 first finals he entered. Then he lost -barely most of the time- the others. Some people might consider this more valuable, especially because it makes him a model as he never seems to give up and that's something we need at least as much as Nada destroying July or Chojja. He makes it a lot more interesting than one sided rape.
And that's why rankings are nice, but will never be able to show everything. There are a few things that cannot be described with just your results, just the way it is in tennis.
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Braavos36390 Posts
i fully agree with you. i do not believe a numerical ranking fully expresses a players' career, nor should it.
if you're going to measure the pure success, in terms of numerical victories, i believe 6-2-1 or 7-2-1 is much more accurate.
but if you're going to measure impact on history, fans, and brood war overall, i think it's pretty easy to say that the list goes:
1. Boxer
2. Yellow
and there's really no comparison, regardless of how many championships are won. the maps were absolutely horrible back then, some nightmare zvt maps that with the no zerg pioneer to follow, Yellow did amazingly well. it's really just too bad that he wasn't able to win just one final.
what i disagree with is that people are putting a lot of stock into second place finishes and simple qualifications for the starleagues. that's really what this article is about, not tearing down Yellow specifically but rather the worth of a "runner-up."
yellow in certain instances is a special case, yes its romantic and somewhat justified to feel that his 2nds are worth something more, but you really can't say that about everyone.
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Didn't feel like reading all of the comments but why do u count by only finals. lets say Player A gets 10 3-0 wins in a Star league then loses in the semi final to Player B who beats him and wins the Star league, but won all his matches by 2-1. that would make Player A be 31-2 and Player B 22-11. would that make Player A worse than Player B? I think we should count by win ration and not Finals appearances.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On June 07 2007 22:40 ff7legend wrote:
Didn't feel like reading all of the comments but why do u count by only finals. lets say Player A gets 10 3-0 wins in a Star league then loses in the semi final to Player B who beats him and wins the Star league, but won all his matches by 2-1. that would make Player A be 31-2 and Player B 22-11. would that make Player A worse than Player B? I think we should count by win ration and not Finals appearances.
i think it's pretty safe to say if Player B beats Player A and goes onto win the Starleague, Player B is better than Player A regardless of what win ratio it was
do you even remember the win ratios for players in starleagues last year?
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Ya but which one is a better player overall. take for example NaDa and Hwasin. Hwasin has beat NaDa twice so far if i remember correctly(not sure where). Does that mean Hwasin could win 3 msl's, just because he beat NaDa?
Edit: no i don't remember the ratios
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Braavos36390 Posts
nada won 3 msls in 2002
how long for a player to slump and lose before you can say they are "worse"?
you can go starleague by starleague... nada was eliminated in this starleague, so yes you can say a lot of players are "better" than nada
are they better than him when viewing all of BW history? of course not, nada is regarded as probably the best player of all time
but are they better than nada this season? yes
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Chojja won an MSL, and has made multiple final/semifinal appearances in both OSL and MSL.
I believe you've completely missed him in the rankings.
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Braavos36390 Posts
holy crap you are totally right
i'm not going to go back and change it but wow i can't believe i just missed him, i think i just took all the OSL winners
in all seriousness wth i just forgot him
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I thought it would be cool to see how Hot_Bid's 7-2-1 system held up, so I added modern players:
51 Pts. – Nada – 6 Win, 4 Second, 1 Semi
48 Pts. – Flash – 6 Win, 2 Second, 2 Semi
46 Pts. – Jaedong – 5 Win, 4 Second, 3 Semi
39 Pts. – Iloveoov – 5 Win, 0 Second, 4 Semi
33 Pts. – Savior – 4 Win, 2 Second, 1 Semi
31 Pts. – Boxer – 3 Win, 4 Second, 2 Semi
26 Pts. – Bisu – 3 Win, 1 Second, 3 Semi
25 Pts. – July – 3 Win, 2 Second, 0 Semi
22 Pts. – Nal_rA – 2 Win, 2 Second, 4 Semi
18 Pts. – Stork – 1 Win, 4 Second, 3 Semi
15 Pts. – Reach – 1 Win, 3 Second, 2 Semi
15 Pts. – Yellow – 0 Win, 5 Second, 5 Semi
15 Pts. – Fantasy – 1 Win, 3 Second, 2 Semi
14 Pts. – Garimto – 2 Win, 0 Second, 0 Semi
12 Pts. – Jangbi – 1 Win, 2 Second, 1 Semi
11 Pts. – Kingdom – 1 Win, 1 Second, 2 Semi
10 Pts. – GoRush – 1 Win, 0 Second, 3 Semi
10 Pts. – Xellos – 1 Win, 0 Second, 3 Semi
10 Pts. – Calm – 1 Win, 0 Second, 3 Semi
9 Pts. – Anytime – 1 Win, 1 Second, 0 Semi
9 Pts. – Casy – 1 Win, 0 Second, 2 Semi
9 Pts. – Luxury – 1 Win, 0 Second, 2 Semi
9 Pts. – Hydra – 1 Win, 0 Second, 2 Semi
8 Pts. – Grrrr – 1 Win, 0 Second, 1 Semi
8 Pts. – Mind – 1 Win, 0 Second, 1 Semi
8 Pts. – GGPlay – 1 Win, 0 Second, 1 Semi
7 Pts. – Freemura – 1 Win, 0 Second, 0 Semi
7 Pts. – Sync – 1 Win, 0 Second, 0 Semi
7 Pts. – fOrGG – 1 Win, 0 Second, 0 Semi
7 Pts. – Effort – 1 Win, 0 Second, 0 Semi
6 Pts. – GoodFriend – 0 Win, 1 Second, 4 Semi
5 Pts. – Kal – 0 Win, 1 Second, 3 Semi
4 Pts. – HOT – 0 Win, 2 Second, 0 Semi
4 Pts. – Chrh – 0 Win, 0 Second, 4 Semi
4 Pts. – Iris – 0 Win, 1 Second, 2 Semi
4 Pts. – ZerO – 0 Win, 1 Second, 2 Semi
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EPT
