• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:50
CEST 15:50
KST 22:50
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202535RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 932 users

My first ~50 games

Blogs > chozen86
Post a Reply
chozen86
Profile Blog Joined May 2017
United States60 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-22 05:24:48
October 22 2017 05:15 GMT
#1
Hello everyone!

I recently came across Dromar's blog documenting his BW progress/journey and was inspired to document and share my progress learning this game. My goal is to share the perspective of a "serious casual" BW player (i.e., not intensively training and massing games everyday) and how it's possible to still thoroughly enjoy the game and see improvements.

To give a sense of what that means, I play about 2-3 1v1s per week (hard to block off uninterrupted time since I'm married with a toddler and have a pretty demanding day job), and squeeze in some Solo/UMS Practice between them (maybe ~20-30 mins a day at most). As far as my background, I started playing in mid-May when SC:R was announced. I don't really have strong RTS experience (dabbled in BW back in the day in the campaign, never managed to beat the AI without cheats, also dabbled in Command and Conquer / Red Alert, was never really amazing).

Some stats
To start off, here are some stats from my first 54 games. I'll show overall first, then broken down by pre-ladder vs. post-ladder (more on that later). I main Protoss.

OVERALL (54 games):
-------------------------------
vP (16 games) 6-10 = 37.5%
vT (17 games) 5-12 = 29.4%
vZ (21 games) 5-16 = 19.0%

PRE-LADDER (22 games):
------------------------------------
vP (7 games) 1-6 = 14.3%
vT (8 games) 1-7 = 12.5%
vZ (7 games) 0-7 = 0.0%
Average APM ~70ish

POST-LADDER (31 games):
------------------------------------
vP (9 games) 5-4 = 55.5%
vT (9 games) 4-5 = 44.4%
vZ (14 games) 4-10 = 28.6%
Average APM ~130ish

I'm 14-39 in the last 54 games (27.7%)
I'm 12-13 in the last 25 games (48.0%)

Here is a dump of the replays in case you're interested (missing one loss where I forgot to save the replay).

Here is a graph that shows a 10-game (forward-looking) moving average winrate over time:
[image loading]

The first thing that jumps out at me from these stats is how much better I've been doing since ladder came out. I've pretty much doubled my win rate. Now, there's at least two factors at play that I think go well together:
A) I'm now playing more with people around my skill level
B) I'm improving

A makes B easier. And I think I'm improving faster than my MMR, so I'm often playing with people that are obviously worse than me. So my winrate is probably a bit inflated. But no matter! Overall, I'm pretty happy with my progress, and especially grateful for the ladder. It isn't perfect, but it's so much more fun to play online now than it was in the past trying to find games on BNet without getting completely stomped.

Some thoughts on the matchups

PVP:
Not sure why I'm doing so well on this matchup - I actually don't have any builds learned.

I basically open like a standard PVT, and then heavily emphasize reavers and shuttles after. Seems to work often, although more often than not it looks like my opponent isn't even really using a build order.

Early on I died a lot to DT cheese, but quickly/eventually learned to get observers ASAP and/or sniff out whether DTs were coming. Overall I don't enjoy this matchup quite as much as the others, since I don't really have an intuition for the logic of the matchup, so I often feel like I'm flying blind. Easy to fix though.

PVT:
Using the 2-Gate-Range-Expand build.

Such a scary matchup early on for me. I died a lot to mech pushes. Took horrible engagements, had no idea how to engage also. Read a lot of pieces on this but didn't really make much difference - I think I just wasn't mechanically there yet to be able to execute them. This youtube video by L_Master was key for my level - simple: don't engage, and if you do, immediately make sure you macro zeal reinforcements, retreat if all your zeals die. Actually worked really really well. Later on got better at mixing in HT.

Now I'm pretty comfortable in this matchup - just not 100% against early aggression like FD, but I'm getting better at dragoon micro and am pretty comfortable picking off marines as I kite back to my base from their natural (practicing solo against the computer is really helpful for this, since they always do a massive M&M push at ~7 mins).

Also still don't do zealot bombs or stasis very much yet. Will come with more practice, probably at higher MMR levels as I start to face scarier mech pushes where the Terran doesn't just push forward blindly but does the slow march of death. Recalls are FUN.

Learning a second build now (1-Gate-Reaver) for some variation.

PVZ:
Using the +1 Sair/Speedlot (aka Neobisu) build.

By far my worst matchup. I think it's pretty normal for a Protoss There's a number of different ways to die or get severely disadvantaged early on - I learned through painful experience just how important scouting is in this matchup. Made silly errors from scouting in many losses, e.g., spot early gas but no lair but thought MUTAs and died to speedling rush, spot spire but didn't switch to cannons and more sairs, forgot to scout for 3rd/4th hatch in other locations (then die to ultras later on).

I also died a LOT to mutas. Still struggle against it. Early on I over-built zealots and forgot to mass a critical mass of corsairs. Scouted spire but didn't respond appropriately with cannons. Later on often overcommitted to sairs and fell behind and eventually lost on the ground.

Still haven't really won a "standard" PVZ (won a few where the opponent missed key elements like lurkers and mutas), especially in the lategame (vs hive tech with swarm etc.). My most satisfying win was breaking out of a hydra-lurker contain and overwhelming the opponent with the mid-game deathball. Was a tad disappointed when I watched the replay and realized he died because he essentially did an all-in (didn't expand or macro behind the contain so had nothing to fight me with when the contain was broken).

Some thoughts on how I improved

* Don't really analyze pro replays, but I often analyze my own replays (mostly losses in more detail)
* Practice build orders in single player vs computer - learn to execute under (some mild) pressure
* Practicing some micro UMS (not super often), focusing on push-breaking Terran mech, and the insane hotkey training UMS where you have to keep a probe alive from a chasing zealot while building up to a civilian rescue (still haven't beat that one yet XP)
* Watching a lot of matches
* Reading a lot of strategy discussions, especially on the TeamLiquid forums
* Tutorial videos, especially ones by L_Master and Day9's Let's Learn Starcraft series
* Getting feedback on my play from friends (e.g., on Discord) and from a Youtube commentator
* Learning to use hotkeys! Game-changer for macro once I started using 09 for nexii and 876 for gateways
* Process-wise, focused on one safe/ok build order per matchup (actually only for PVZ and PVT) and focus on getting better at macro (constantly produce units/probes, keep money low, expand, etc.)

These all look very much like the standard advice, just spread out over longer periods of time. The point to me is that it works! You can get better even if you're not training intensely every day.

Looking ahead
Overall I think I'm getting to the point where my macro isn't too shabby - seldom get supply blocked, constantly make probes and units, can usually hit 100 supply at 10-min mark, even under pressure. I often don't max out in ladder games though. I think my expansion and tech/upgrade timings could definitely be a lot tighter - need to trade off against making tons of units all the time. I also often forget to upgrade.

I think it's also time to really focus on improving multitasking. Part of this will come from the hotkey micro UMS. It seemed completely undoable at first, but now it's feeling like I can actually do it.

This will help with the micro I need to improve, especially:
* Shuttle/drop micro (e.g., zealot bombing and HT drops during Terran push-breaking, harrass)
* Probe scouting early game
* Corsair control/scouting while executing build order

Finally, I need to get a lot better at scouting. I'm doing a good job of getting vision and not getting caught by surprise by pushes, but I'm not doing a great job of actually knowing what's going on and appropriately responding, especially early game. I've started counting SCVs on gas for Terran, but can never remember in-game what they mean. Ditto Zerg.

I'm definitely still a noob, but am having fun improving! Comments/feedback and practice partners welcome!

****
hiro protagonist
Profile Joined January 2009
1294 Posts
October 22 2017 07:54 GMT
#2
Really good read! Its really satisfying to see the improvement and how you got there

I've done my own reflecting on my game, and it looks a lot like you (except I main as z).

The only difference is that I'm still at 70 APM after 80ish games! What did you do that you think helped the most make you play faster?

Keep up the blog! I want to hear about the next 50 games
"I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk
Neobick
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Sweden208 Posts
October 22 2017 17:16 GMT
#3
Awesome man, keep on trucking. Seems like you gonna rise quickly with a mindset like that.


ZvP, think you should play Sair/Dt instead, it's more fun(imo), and punish greedy zergs way harder.
Use the force.
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
October 22 2017 17:53 GMT
#4
That's how you get good at BW! Keep it up!
first we make expand, then we defense it.
chozen86
Profile Blog Joined May 2017
United States60 Posts
October 22 2017 18:10 GMT
#5
Thanks for the feedback everyone!

The only difference is that I'm still at 70 APM after 80ish games! What did you do that you think helped the most make you play faster?


Looking back, I think it was a combination of:
* Hotkeys (this is the easiest one with the biggest payoff)
* Getting better game sense and internalizing build orders (so I'm not hesitating as much at any given moment; this is slower improvement but I think has a much higher ceiling)
* Getting better at multitasking (or at least sensing the many different things I want to be doing - right now it's mainly keeping up the macro cycle while I'm attacking/defending/harrassing)

ZvP, think you should play Sair/Dt instead, it's more fun(imo), and punish greedy zergs way harder.


After today's ASL with Bisu, I definitely want to pick this up! Not too big a variation off the NeoBisu build (it is the predecessor of that build after all XP).
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
October 22 2017 22:51 GMT
#6
Nice blog. I can only really give you advice for PvZ, but if you have any questions, I can at least help. Keep in mind though that ZvP is my worst matchup by a pretty wide margin. Though maybe that just means I have a lot of advice on what works for Protosses.

On October 22 2017 16:54 hiro protagonist wrote:
Really good read! Its really satisfying to see the improvement and how you got there

I've done my own reflecting on my game, and it looks a lot like you (except I main as z).

The only difference is that I'm still at 70 APM after 80ish games! What did you do that you think helped the most make you play faster?

Keep up the blog! I want to hear about the next 50 games


For myself, especially getting back into brood war, one thing that helped immensely was just practicing opening builds against a computer. You can basically ignore the computer entirely, but it's really important to have the mechanics of the early management stuff down. Just practice whatever build you need work on the most.

Build drones. Send them to mine (at the correct patches). Pull the drone to send to the natural at the right time. Plant the hatch right when you have 300, while not letting the drones that spawn around that time idle. Build the pool as soon as you have 200. Build Overlords at the right supply. Learn when you need to make lings and incorporate those too.

All kinds of little things that can make the game go so much smoother if you execute them correctly. If you mess up, start over and try again. These things seem minor, but can have huge impact. Because of better execution, your spawning pool might be 5 seconds faster than before. Same build, just faster. That means 5 seconds faster lings. Much easier defense or much more effective offense. On top of all that, it should help you become more comfortable with the mechanics, which will improve your APM and multitasking ability.

For me, I needed to work on my ZvP, so I played a few games against the computer, and got a bit of general practice with the openings. Now I know when I need to build lings, when I need to plant the 4th and 5th hatch, when I need to build hydra den/evos/sunks, at what supplies I should build Overlords, etc. It takes only like 20 minutes to practice 3 or 4 times and it makes a monumental difference. My APM went up by about 40 in all matchups too, just from familiarity and muscle memory.
hiro protagonist
Profile Joined January 2009
1294 Posts
October 23 2017 05:13 GMT
#7
thanks for the tips, chozen and Dromar, Ill give them a shot!

"I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2748 Posts
October 24 2017 10:06 GMT
#8
I'm just gonna say it: your win rate post-MMRis 50% because that's what the MMR is designed to do: it will give everybody in the middle 90% percentile (everybody but the really good or really bad) a 50% win record.

Win rates were a thing before MMR. They mean nothing on the MMR. What you are measuring, is how well the MMR works.
chozen86
Profile Blog Joined May 2017
United States60 Posts
October 24 2017 11:48 GMT
#9
On October 24 2017 19:06 Navane wrote:
I'm just gonna say it: your win rate post-MMRis 50% because that's what the MMR is designed to do: it will give everybody in the middle 90% percentile (everybody but the really good or really bad) a 50% win record.

Win rates were a thing before MMR. They mean nothing on the MMR. What you are measuring, is how well the MMR works.


Fair point!

That said, I'm pretty sure I'm improving, but I think you're probably right that winrate on its own isn't a good measure. Assuming MMR works, increases in MMR (as long as winrate stays constant around 50% or better) might work? Any other suggestions?
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
October 24 2017 12:21 GMT
#10
yeah your mmr increasing will in general mean that you are improving. It's a bit off because MMR does inflate a bit over time though. And you can also expect somewhat big fluctuations on a day to day basis. In games between players of near equal skill, there is some degree of luck involved, that's hard to avoid. Some days you can beat someone 3-0, the next day you can lose 0-3 to the same player. Doesn't really mean you became better or worse, just that stuff went your way, or it didn't. (If you have a m&m vs lurker/ling battle, one lurker spine killing 5 marines 0.3 seconds before the lurker died can totally decide the outcome. It's not really 'luck', because a truly stellar player can control that, but it's also reasonable to assume that at your current skill level, that scenario would play out differently if you did it again. These types of battles can often decide games, and it's not that rare for that type of scenario to go one way 3 games in a row and another way 3 other games. )
Moderator
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2748 Posts
October 24 2017 13:53 GMT
#11
The way I see my improvement is if I can do more things. Since I'm a macro oriented player; these are mostly abilities to fend of cheese, and getting further and further in lategame without lettin my game go to shit cause there's so much to do.

A big improvement of my ZvT was requireing dark swarm to win. Before that, I either loose bigly or win bigly at the lurker stage, sometimes getting ultras. It's when I got to the vessel vs dark swarm fights that I knew, I'm playing this game on a different level.

Similarly, when I could handle drops. Before that; either they didnt drop me so I did fine, or they dropped me and I died. When they did their drops, but I could handle them either with scourges or cleaning them up properly, that was when I knew I improved.

These are improvements that are only measurable over months.

Right now, i'm for instance always dying when P does recalls on my factories (I'm T now). Either they don't recall at all, or they do but then I die. This is a next step I need to master; get vessels and mines vs recalls.

MMR and winrates are all so relative. You'll know true improvement when it happens. In your case, constant probe production is a good measurement, it's very absolute.
chozen86
Profile Blog Joined May 2017
United States60 Posts
October 25 2017 16:59 GMT
#12
Good point about MMR volatility - can partially mitigate with appropriate moving averages, and trusting longer trends vs. day-to-day changes.

Also good point about having specific milestones. I have my own list of such milestones (always be ahead in upgrades, at least hit 100 supply by 10m, don't die to FD, pull off harass without macro slipping), but I wonder if anyone has made/crowdsourced the skill/milestone progression tree for BW across different players. Would that be useful? Would it also be useful to tie learning resources (e.g., sample FPVODs, threads, recommended exercises/UMS maps) to the points in the tree?
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
10:00
2025 - Day 2
Reynor vs MaruLIVE!
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
EWC_Arena8735
ComeBackTV 2557
TaKeTV 524
Hui .484
3DClanTV 309
Rex216
EnkiAlexander 191
CranKy Ducklings180
mcanning145
Reynor124
UpATreeSC96
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena8735
Hui .484
Rex 216
mcanning 145
Reynor 124
UpATreeSC 96
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 3856
Barracks 1938
Flash 1649
BeSt 1583
Jaedong 1523
EffOrt 1111
Stork 601
Mini 576
ggaemo 435
Snow 283
[ Show more ]
Soma 280
ZerO 259
Soulkey 258
ToSsGirL 255
GuemChi 250
Dewaltoss 128
Rush 124
Hyun 121
TY 60
soO 59
Sea.KH 47
Sacsri 46
sorry 40
JulyZerg 38
scan(afreeca) 26
Yoon 11
Movie 10
ivOry 10
Terrorterran 9
Bale 9
Britney 0
Dota 2
Gorgc4197
XcaliburYe274
420jenkins218
syndereN182
Counter-Strike
sgares573
oskar230
edward36
Super Smash Bros
Westballz30
Other Games
singsing2057
hiko1358
B2W.Neo916
crisheroes408
Fuzer 166
ArmadaUGS71
QueenE35
ZerO(Twitch)16
KnowMe0
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH296
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV564
League of Legends
• Nemesis3600
• TFBlade326
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
20h 10m
TBD vs Zoun
TBD vs SHIN
TBD vs ShoWTimE
TBD vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 21h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.