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There are nine match-ups for assessment here. There is only a single criteria a player has to pass in order to be listed: have over one hundred competitive victories listed on TLPD against a single race.
The one hundred win requirement will act as a barrier to prevent players who didn't have full career arcs, and had relatively small sample size of games to begin with, being rated highly. I didn't want SnOw to be remembered as the best protoss-versus-terran player of all-time just because he had the highest career win rate, or Horang2 being remembered as the best protoss-versus-protoss player of all-time just because he had the highest career win rate in the match-up.
I also will look at the number of players who managed to get over 100 competitive domestic match wins, to figure out which match-up gave the most opportunities for specific match-up specialists.
Finally, I will highlight players who maintained a career win rate over 60% in a certain match-up, while battling against that race frequently enough (meaning one match-wonders who couldn't prove their worth outside of a handful of games such as Sheis would be disqualified) to gather over one-hundred career victories in a single match-up.
TvT: 3 players with career win rates over 60%
1) NaDa: 178-116 (60.54%)
2) Flash: 168-63 (72.73%)
3) BoxeR: 137-124 (52.49%)
4) XellOs: 121-83 (59.31%)
5) Sea: 120-73 (62.18%)
6) Midas: 108-90 (54.55%)
7) Light: 103-76 (57.54%)
8) iloveoov: 100-68 (59.52%)
TvZ: 13 players with career win rates over 60%
1) NaDa: 278-153 (63.04%)
2) BoxeR: 259-149 (63.48%)
3) Flash: 176-70 (71.54%)
4) Sync: 168-102 (62.22%)
5) TheMarine: 166-111 (59.93%)
6) XellOs: 159-115 (58.03%)
7) Light: 148-70 (67.89%)
8) Midas: 141-79 (64.09%)
9) Hwasin: 137-87 (61.16%)
10) Sea: 129-86 (60.00%)
11) Silent_Control: 128-72 (64.00%)
12) FanTaSy: 112-71 (61.20%)
13) Casy: 111-70 (61.33%)
14) Iris: 111-87 (56.06%)
15) illoveoov: 110-51 (68.32%)
16) Leta: 110-70 (61.11%)
17) ChRh: 110-119 (48.03%)
18) ClouD: 106-94 (53.00%)
TvP: 2 players with career win rates over 60%
1) NaDa: 200-139 (59.00%)
2) Flash: 154-70 (68.75%)
3) BoxeR: 153-145 (51.34%)
4) Sea: 118-92 (56.19%)
5) Midas: 112-84 (57.14%)
6) Sea: 118-92 (56.19%)
7) FanTaSy: 103-55 (65.19%)
Comments: So many terran legends, such as Casy, SIlent_Control built a significant portion of their legacies off the single match-up of terran-versus-zerg. There wasn't a lot of terran-versus-terran specialists around despite the abundance of professional terran players in general.
As expected, there was a significant lack of terran-versus-protoss specialists, with only two players with a career win rate that went above 60%, and none above 70%.
ZvT: 2 players with career win rates over 60%
1) YellOw: 217-181 (54.52%)
2) Jaedong: 203-116 (63.64%)
3) July: 144-128 (52.94%)
4) GoRush: 129-119 (52.02%)
5) sAviOr: 126-113 (52.72%)
6) ChoJJa: 126-132 (48.84%)
7) YellOw[ArnC]: 109-69 (61.24%)
8) Junwi: 105-107 (49.53%)
ZvZ: 1 player with a career win rate over 60%
1) Jaedong: 189-71 (72.69%)
2) YellOw: 127-95 (57.21%)
3) GoRush: 126-92 (58.06%)
4) ChoJJa: 115-89 (56.37%)
5) ZerO: 112-101 (52.58%)
6) H.O.T-Forever: 102-72 (58.62%)
7) Calm: 100-85 (54.05%)
ZvP: 4 players with a career win rate over 60%
1) Jaedong: 156-74 (67.83%)
2) July: 150-67 (69.12%)
3) YellOw: 146-95 (60.58%)
4) sAviOr: 108-55 (66.26%)
Comments: Despite the zerg-versus-protoss match-up being the easiest match-up for the zerg race, it ironically has the least number of zerg players who managed to get over one-hundred victories, not due to the struggles the zerg race had versus the protoss race (there are numerous zerg legends who had high win rates versus the protoss race), but because the protoss race weren't readily available fodder for the top zerg players.
As expected, there wasn't a lot of zerg players who found good success versus the terran race. YellOw[ArnC] is the only zerg player in history to have over one-hundred victories against the terran race, yet have less than one-hundred defeats versus the terran players.
There was a significant lack of players who found continuous success in the mirror-match-up (despite the zerg-versus-zerg match-up being the most played mirror-match-up in the history of professional Brood War), with Jaedong being the only player in history to have over one-hundred wins, as well as having a win rate over 60%.
PvT: 5 players with career win rates over 60%
1. Stork: 187-101 (64.93%)
2. Reach: 164-153 (51.74%)
3. Bisu: 159-90 (63.86%)
4. Nal_rA: 143-93 (60.59%)
5. ZeuS: 128-109 (54.01%)
6. PuSan: 124-91 (57.67%)
7. fOru: 124-107 (52.68%)
8. free: 122-97 (55.71%)
9. JangBi: 119-72 (62.30%)
10. Anytime: 114-89 (56.16%)
11. BeSt: 110-57 (65.87%)
12. Kal: 110-82 (57.29%)
PvZ: 1 player with a career win rate over 60%
1. Reach: 190-180 (51.35%)
2. Stork: 156-121 (56.32%)
3. Bisu: 155-69 (69.20%)
4. Nal_rA: 123-107 (53.48%)
5. free: 118-90 (56.73%)
6. Kal: 118-95 (55.40%)
7. ZeuS: 111-120 (48.05%)
8. JangBi: 109-94 (53.69%)
9. fOru: 105-111 (48.61%)
10. Anytime: 102-109 (48.34%)
PvP: 2 players with career win rates over 60%
1. Stork: 135-84 (61.64%)
2. Bisu: 122-71 (63.21%)
Comments: As expected, a plethora of protoss players found their greatest success against the terran race, but the actual number of protoss players who have win rates going over 60% isn't that high, with the circumstances involved being in stark contrast to the zerg race.
Top zerg players had fantastic success against the protoss race, but were more often pitted against the terran race which wasn't their ideal match-up. However, the protoss had little difficulty finding either terran or zerg opposition, but their domination over the terran race was mild at best (only one player had a career win rate going over 65% out of the players who had over one-hundred victories versus the terran race), and I don't think I need to point out the poor results the protoss race had against the zerg race, with Bisu being the exception to the rule.
There was a significant lack of protoss-versus-protoss players on this list, not because there was a lack of quality mirror-match-up protoss players, but because out of the nine available match-ups in the game, historically speaking, the protoss-versus-protoss match-up was by far the least common match-up.
 
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Goddamn, those Flash winrates, just insane
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Total freaks of nature:
Players with substantially higher number of victories than the players with the second most number of victories against a single race:
1) Jaedong versus zerg: 149% of the number of victories achieved by YellOw
2) NaDa versus protoss: 130% of the number of victories achieved by Flash
3) Reach versus protoss: 122% of the number of victories achieved by Stork
4) Stork versus terran: 114% of the number of victories achieved by Reach
5) NaDa versus zerg: 107% of the number of victories achieved by BoxeR
Players with substantially higher win rate than the other players on the above list against a single race:
1) Jaedong versus zerg: Career win rate that is 14.07% higher than that of GoRush
2) Bisu versus zerg: Career win rate that is 12.47% higher than that of free
3) Flash versus terran: Career win rate that is 10.55% higher than that of Sea
4) Flash versus protoss: Career win rate that is 3.56% higher than that of FanTaSy
5) Flash versus zerg: Career win rate that is 3.22% higher than that of iloveoov
Thoughts:
People who have won a lot, usually have lost their fair share to achieve that extra-ordinary number. Jaedong, ironically, is the player that has lost the most zerg-versus-zerg best-of-five series in history, alongside ZerO. Reach is the protoss player that lost the second most best-of-five series in history to the zerg race, after Kal. Stork is the protoss player that lost the second most best-of-five series in history to the terran race, after Bisu. There is literally nobody who made it to the top of the list without having some well-known moments of embarrassment along the way.
Flash is a freak of nature, being the only player in history to have such excellent win rates across all three match-ups, although his professional career did not have its full arc completed, due to his debut being more recent than any other player on the list save FanTaSy who also happens to have excellent win rates. Bisu, once you narrow the parameters to a single match-up, is arguably even more of a freak of nature than Flash in any of his match-ups.
Jaedong's zerg-versus-zerg is the only match-up on the list that's both number one in terms of overall number of wins, and career win rate, and on top of that, he boasts the highest discrepancy between Jaedong and the next-zerg-player-in-line. Considering how badly he messed up his statistics in the match-up since around 2011, I would describe Jaedong's zerg-versus-zerg during his absolute prime as something that was the closest to breaking the rules of the game. The sheer level of difference in the actual manipulation of the units on screen during Jaedong during his peak, and the opposing player will probably be never seen again in a competitive setting.
Finally, NaDa's records are astounding in a different way. He is the only player on the list to top all three match-ups in terms of number of victories. Jaedong, and Stork comes close to repeating that feat for their respective match-ups. It is truly astounding how many competitive games NaDa won throughout his career. It is something that's even more mind boggling once you take into account that there has been more competitive Brood War games after Flash made his debut, than all of the recorded (on databases such as TLPD) competitive Brood War games leading up to that point. Six and half years of recorded competitive Brood War from 1999 to 2006, gives about the same overall number of Brood War games that happened from early 2007 to 2010, a time-frame of little less than three years.
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This was super awesome to see. Thanks for the writeup!
Any Jaedong awesomeness to trigger my past memories makes me happy 
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On September 25 2017 13:12 ReketSomething wrote:This was super awesome to see. Thanks for the writeup! Any Jaedong awesomeness to trigger my past memories makes me happy
The prominence Jaedong has within his own race can be amplified once you limit the player pool to his more modern compatriots. The following list would probably be what pops up in many people's minds after they saw the title, since a lot of people tend to pay less attention to the first two-thirds of professional Brood War.
The same format, but after 15th March 2007, when Flash made his professional debut:
TvT: 2 players with career win rates over 60%
1) Flash: 168-63 (72.73%)
2) Sea: 108-61 (63.91%)
TvZ: 4 players with career win rates over 60%
1) Flash: 170-70 (71.54%)
2) Light: 117-54 (68.42%)
3) FanTaSy: 112-70 (61.54%)
4) Leta: 104-66 (61.18%)
TvP: 2 players with career win rates over 60%
1) Flash: 154-70 (68.75%)
2) FanTaSy: 103-55 (65.19%)
ZvT: 1 player with a career win rate over 60%
1) Jaedong: 186-102 (64.58%)
ZvZ: 1 player with a career win rate over 60%
1) Jaedong: 165-62 (72.69%)
2) ZerO: 112-101 (52.58%)
ZvP: 1 player with a career win rate over 60%
1) Jaedong: 140-65 (68.29%)
PvT: 4 players with career win rates over 60%
1. Stork: 148-74 (66.67%)
2. Bisu: 129-72 (64.18%)
3. JangBi: 112-69 (61.88%)
4. free: 109-83 (56.77%)
5. BeSt: 105-55 (65.63%)
6. Kal: 104-73 (58.76%)
PvZ: 1 player with a career win rate over 60%
1. Bisu: 126-57 (68.85%)
2. Stork: 124-86 (59.05%)
3. Kal: 112-89 (55.72%)
4. JangBi: 104-86 (54.74%)
PvP: 2 players with career win rates over 60%
1. Bisu: 115-63 (64.61%)
2. Stork: 110-73 (60.11%)
As you can see, you can find a plethora of players who found sustained excellence in at least one of the match-ups for the other two races. All the members of the Six Dragons made it into the protoss-versus-terran list with over one-hundred victories each. Flash and FanTaSy were joined by the ProLeague terran aces in the shape of Sea, Light, and Leta.
However, while it is relatively easy to name the two most successful player for each of the races for the other two races, it is quite difficult to pin-down the second greatest zerg player in the era where Flash was active as a professional gamer. Luxury, Calm, EffOrt, and hydra were all good in short bursts, but couldn't sustain their excellence long enough to make enough of a presence on this list. Zerg-versus-zerg was far from ZerO's favourite match-up, but his longevity as a top class zerg was rewarded with his abundance of zerg-versus-zerg victories, even if his win rate wasn't all that great.
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Fyo0L2H.png)
Comments: Arguably three of the most impressive players within the confines of a single match-up compared against one-another. Jaedong has an unfathomable career peak around after playing one-hundred matches, hitting a career win rate of 80%. However, his win rate slowly approaches 70% as the years go by. Flash, on that other hand, gradually raises his terran-versus-terran win rate throughout his entire career, only taking a hit slightly in 2012, when FanTaSy had his number somewhat. Bisu, after surprising everybody with a new style of protoss-versus-zerg meta-game, enjoyed huge initial success, but faltered somewhat after his approach was figured out, but recovered his form after redefining his playstyle, coupled with unparalleled execution and understanding of the match-up.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MGbGnVh.png)
Comments: Flash being contrasted with NaDa, another all-time great at the match of terran-versus-terran. NaDa has superior results initially, but his win rate decays below the win rate of Flash, who kept enhancing his game until he met his match in the in-form FanTaSy in 2012. Whether Flash would have dipped in form from that point on, or whether he would have overcome that small hiccup remains a mystery.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3V3KdBJ.png)
Comments: Jaedong contrasted with two old-school zergs known for their zerg-versus-zerg prowess. All three zergs hit their peak form after around one-hundred games, and slowly lose their grip as time passes by.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xYXdJqs.png)
Comments: Bisu contrasted with Reach, an extremely underated protoss veteran who often gets ridiculed at for his mediocre abilities in the match-up, when his initial success at the match-up was arguably superior to that of Stork's.
Taek-Beng-LeeSsang have played roughly around two-hundred games for most of the available match-ups, and I wanted to contrast it with the win rates of other greats who also had great win rates after playing roughly the same amount of games, but botched their impeccable statistics by playing past their primes.
Top ten match-ups of all-time after exactly two-hundred matches played
1. Jaedong's zerg-versus-zerg: 75%
2. Flash's terran-versus-terran: 74%
3. Flash's terran-versus-zerg: 70.5%
4. Jaedong's zerg-versus-protoss: 69.5%
5. Flash's terran-versus-protoss: 69%
6. July's zerg-versus-protoss: 69%
7. Bisu's protoss-versus-zerg: 68.5%
8. NaDa's terran-versus-zerg: 68%
9. BoxeR's terran-versus-zerg: 67.5%
10. Nal-rA's protoss-versus-terran: 66.5%
Others:
NaDa's TvT after exactly two-hundred matches played: 66%
NaDa's TvP after exactly two-hundred matches played: 65.5%
YellOw's ZvT after exactly two-hundred matches played: 65.0%
Jaedong's ZvT after exactly two-hundred matches played: 63.5%
GoRush's ZvZ after exactly two-hundred matches played: 60.5%
Stork's PvT after exactly two-hundred matches played: 65.24%
Reach's PvZ after exactly two-hundred matches played: 58.5%
Stork's PvP after exactly two-hundred matches played: 60.5%
Greatest discepancy between the top two players in terms of win rates for each of the match-ups at exactly two-hundred games
Stork's PvP: literally nobody else managed to hit two hundred games
1. Jaedong's ZvZ: 14.5% higher win rate than GoRush when both played 200 matches of ZvZ
2. Bisu's PvZ: 10% higher win rate than Reach when both played 200 matches of PvZ
3. Flash's TvT: 8% higher win rate than NaDa when both played 200 matches of TvT
4. Flash's TvP: 3.5% higher win rate than NaDa when both played 200 matches of TvP
5. Flash's TvZ: 2.5% higher win rate than NaDa when both played 200 matches of TvZ
6. YellOw's TvZ: 1.5% higher win rate than Jaedong when both played 200 matches of ZvT
7. Nal_rA's PvT: 1.26% higher win rate than Stork when both played 200 matches of TvP
8. Jaedong's ZvP: 0.5% higher win rate than July when both played 200 matches of ZvP
Conclusion:
Jaedong's zerg-versus-zerg is statistically the greatest outlier out of any of the match-ups.
Other protoss players such as Reach or Stork may have won more matches, but once you compare the three players after they all played two-hundred matches, Bisu has by far the highest win rate, and his protoss-versus-zerg match-up is probably the second great match-up the world has ever seen statistically speaking.
Flash's best match-up statistically speaking is terran-versus-terran, although the win rate differential between Flash and NaDa after both played two-hundred matches fails to hit double digits unlike the previous two cases.
What is amazing about Flash is that pound-for-pound (meaning after the same number of matches played), he is the only player in history to top the charts for all three match-ups in terms of win rates. Jaedong and Stork technically can boast the same, but with these two, it's more to do with the fact that they played more matches than any others, in the same way no terran player can boast the win rates NaDa got, after playing three-hundred matches in a single match-up, simply due to the fact that almost nobody played that many games except for BoxeR in the terran-versus-zerg match-up.
It is hard to argue that YellOw or Nal_rA against Jaedong and Stork, due to the fact that both Jaedong and Stork played far more than two-hundred matches (the two-hundred match threshold was created mostly for the benefit of Flash and Bisu) in ZvT, and PvT respectively. In fact, both played around three-hundred matches in these match-ups, and had higher win rates than any other player for that specific threshold.
Jaedong's zerg-versus-protoss and July's zerg-versus-protoss are both neck and neck statistically speaking, but I personally think July is the greater of the two due to the fact that July kept his impeccable record years after he was at his best, when there was a severe shortage of protoss fodder to boost his numbers even higher.
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It's interesting to think that if you were a Zerg player, it was statistically better for you to face FlaSh than Jaedong.
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On September 26 2017 15:59 Ej_ wrote:
It's interesting to think that if you were a Zerg player, it was statistically better for you to face FlaSh than Jaedong.
I think it's even more interesting to think that if you were protoss player, it was statistically better for you to face Flash than Jaedong. Especially once you factor in the fact that there were numerous zerg-versus-protoss specialists in history, while there was a severe shortage of players who found sustained success in the terran-versus-protoss match-up. I don't think Jaedong's zerg-versus-protoss was that out of the ordinary once you factor in Jaedong's overall stature as a gamer.
I tried quite hard to factor in the general expectations of the match-up in the discussion. For example, Bisu has extremely similar numbers to Light versus the zerg race (once you add the numbers for Tving OGN StarLeague preliminaries, which for some reason is not listed on TLPD):
Light's TvZ: 150-70 (68.18%)
Bisu's PvZ: 156-70 (69.02%)
Statistically speaking, both were on a reasonably similar level. However, once you factor in the fact that there were numerous terran-versus-zerg specialists who achieved win rates above 60% with similar number of games played, while there was literally zero protoss players who had a win rate above 60% after playing as many games as Bisu, Bisu's numbers become much more impressive. In my opinion, that makes Bisu's protoss-versus-zerg much more impressive than Light's terran-versus-zerg.
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It's interesting that all of the ZvT masters like Jaedong, July, and YellOw[ArnC] were all known for being micro experts rather than brainy macro players. sAviOr excluded of course--the Maestro really was one of a kind.
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These blogs are so awesome
The post 2007 list is so accurate to how the foreign scene thinks of the players. YouTube only came into existence in 2005. It was possible to torrent vods a little before youtube, but it took ages and I only ever did it once in awhile. After nevake and jon747 and moktira and the other noble uploaders, the whole scene became so much easier to follow, rather than just the highlights and the finals. We all had watched a grrr vod, or some nada, boxer, july vods in 140p, but that glorious era of just being able to watch off YouTube...
I would say by the time I started watching a fairly large number of vods, they were 2/3rds through their careers, the original kings. I remember knowing who Yellow, Reach etc were before 2005, but that was more through Pimpest Play's screenshots and battlereports than it was through the perhaps dozen vods I had found and spent 6 hours each downloading at 6kb/s. Foreigners respect the old legends, but it was through a mist of mystique that they did so. We imitated in our games what we heard about, but rarely ever saw the original vods they came from.
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On September 26 2017 22:09 LightSpectra wrote:
It's interesting that all of the ZvT masters like Jaedong, July, and YellOw[ArnC] were all known for being micro experts rather than brainy macro players. sAviOr excluded of course--the Maestro really was one of a kind.
sAviOr was indeed spectacular versus terran players when he was in full swing. However, his domination, even if we confine the conversation to his respected zerg-versus-terran match-up, was mainly limited to his MSL performances.
No one can deny that sAviOr was mesmerizing during his five consecutive MSL finals, but outside of that, sAviOr wasn't unstoppable. He was only unstoppable if we limit the discussion to MSL only. While he was working his magic, pushing MSL further into the limelight, this was his actual results in tournaments hosted by Ongamenet:
EVER 2005: Eliminated by CuteBOy (T)
So1: Eliminated by Yooi (T)
Shinhan 2005: Sent to the elimination match by ClouD (T), and eliminated by Nal_rA (P)
Shinhan S1: Eliminated by Hwasin (T)
Shinhan S2: Eliminated by Jaedong (Z)
Shinhan S3: Wins against all
So while sAviOr was doing miraculous stuff against terran players in games broadcasted by MBC Game, he was also getting denied by a whole platoon of various terran players, even if it was not as memorable as July being brutalized by iloveoov, or ChoJJa being micro-managed to death by Casy. Somehow, how terrible and unforgettable his performances were at times helped sAviOr's aura of "invincibility".
sAviOr had amassed a record of 90-60 (60%) against the terran race by September 2007. sAviOr would never reach 60% again after that point. A respectable record, but while his peaks were indeed memorable and stylish beyond words, I think his actual performance in terms of results against the terran race (and in general) is way overblown.
Records of notable zerg-versus-terran stylists after 150 matches of zerg-versus-terran:
1. YellOw: 97-53 (64.67%)
2. YellOw[ArnC]: 96-54 (64.00%)
3. Jaedong: 95-55 (63.33%)
4. sAviOr: 90-60 (60%)
5. July: 86-64 (57.33%)
6. GoRush: 82-68 (54.66%)
7. Luxury: 80-70 (53.33%)
7. GGPlay: 80-70 (53.33%)
7. Calm: 80-70 (53.33%)
So if we were to classify the top five on the list, I would classify three zergs as technicians of the highest level, in decreasing order on their reliance on sheer micro-management:
YellOw[Arnc]
July
Jaedong
I would argue that sAviOr's cerebral talents may have been the greatest at creating builds ahead of its time, coupled with excellent read on the game, but in terms of out maneuvering and out smarting inside the game itself, I would argue that YellOw was the greatest zerg of them all. sAviOr was more like iloveoov, where he basically had the game within the palm of his hand before the matches even started, but I think YellOw was superior in terms of on-the-fly decisions and wit. sAviOr has some of that guile about him also, but so does the likes of EffOrt. In terms of coming up with unorthodox builds, players such as SiLvEr, or Calm were probably more creative.
I think some quotes about them might clarify matters:
+ Show Spoiler +
Sea on the rivalry between NaDa and sAviOr when they met in WEF 2006 (an international invitational):
"I remember it still. NaDa didn't like sAviOr. He said sAviOr had zero respect for his seniors. I was roommates with NaDa the day before the finals, and we discussed build orders. NaDa really didn't want to lose to sAviOr. Despite that, the results were embarassingly one-sided. It's because sAviOr did a fast 13 gas build, when zergs at the time did 18 gas. NaDa didn't expect such fast tech from the zerg, and lost helplessly to sAviOr's mutalisks. Afterwards, NaDa just muttered that the mutalisks came way too fast."
+ Show Spoiler +
July explaining why he thinks YellOw is the greatest zerg of all time:
July: YellOw is still the greatest zerg in my heart.
Casters: Yes, he was great.
July: There has never been a zerg as good as him
Casters: It's such a tragedy that he never won a championship.
July: He was truly amazing. Like, Jaedong may be the best now, but YellOw was several times more outstanding during his prime.
Casters: Compared to his contemporaries, you mean.
July: He did unthinkable plays even for current day standards. The stuff he did like leaving behind a couple of lurkers in the path of enemy infantry, after forcing them to retreat with a backstab, or morphing lurkers outside of enemy vision to strike from unexpected angles. sAviOr was the only one who came close.
In conclusion, sAviOr was the zerg equivalent of iloveoov, as in creating the best general algorithm for a certain match-up. His genius was one that could be imitated, and people would copy his builds and would have better results at the game. However, in terms of getting the better of an opponent through wit and cunning, there were plenty that could match, or even surpass sAviOr, even though he was no slouch in this department by any means. There were numerous legendary zergs who did not rely on their mechanics and execution to overcome enemies.
I know people say sAviOr's genius counts for more since he was more influential, but I don't think people truly care about influential players. It seems to only matter when popular players like sAviOr, or Bisu are involved. It's Shark that YellOw[ArnC] has to thank for his excellent zerg-versus-terran, and to a lesser degree, perhaps the same could be said for Jaedong. Shark was in possession of an inquisitive mind, and was fantastic at creating smartly designed builds (as mentioned by his previous teammates).
Shark was responsible for discovering the single greatest advancement for the zerg race, but had no sexy story-lines to partner his monumental discovery. sAviOr was indeed a gaming genius of the highest level, but his genius was partnered up by some really memorable performances and engaging story-lines. All that buzz around sAviOr really does over-blow his actual results and contributions to the game itself. YellOw[ArnC] was notorious for not sticking to the intricate build paths utilized by sAviOr, and stuck to his original style, and was far more reliant on the discovery of mutalisk stacking, and was actually more successful against the terran race overall than sAviOr, even though sAviOr did nail things to perfection when the spotlight was all focused on him.
sAviOr was one of a kind in that he captured the imagination of Brood War fans more so than probably any other zerg players in history, with his swagger, build orders and gaming algorithm that was years ahead of his time, and most importantly, having a movie-like plot to his career. The way in which he slowly gathered a name for himself as a zerg prodigy, and the way in which he divided the community with his weird habit of only doing well in the MSL, and then with silencing all his critics with his amazing Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 run, where it literally couldn't have been scripted any better. His dramatic fall from grace, and even his exit from the scene was dramatic as can be.
A superstar of the highest level for sure (a pure gem from a narrative perspective), and probably the best post-BoxeR the scene has ever had. In terms of actual worth as a competitive gamer? I think he is one of the most over-rated gamers the scene has ever had.
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On September 26 2017 23:06 Chef wrote:These blogs are so awesome The post 2007 list is so accurate to how the foreign scene thinks of the players. YouTube only came into existence in 2005. It was possible to torrent vods a little before youtube, but it took ages and I only ever did it once in awhile. After nevake and jon747 and moktira and the other noble uploaders, the whole scene became so much easier to follow, rather than just the highlights and the finals. We all had watched a grrr vod, or some nada, boxer, july vods in 140p, but that glorious era of just being able to watch off YouTube... I would say by the time I started watching a fairly large number of vods, they were 2/3rds through their careers, the original kings. I remember knowing who Yellow, Reach etc were before 2005, but that was more through Pimpest Play's screenshots and battlereports than it was through the perhaps dozen vods I had found and spent 6 hours each downloading at 6kb/s. Foreigners respect the old legends, but it was through a mist of mystique that they did so. We imitated in our games what we heard about, but rarely ever saw the original vods they came from.
I think it is the same for almost any competitive scene.
Colour broadcasting first became available after the 1970 World Cup (featuring Pele's last ever appearance at the World Cup), and the football legends people constantly talk about are Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, and Maradona. It's like football starts with Pele, and legends that came after him. All it takes is one well publicized performance, something that catches the imagine of the masses, and it's enough to overshadow years worth of excellence with actual substance in a lot of the cases.
People say they value consistency, but history tells us otherwise. People want sexy narratives. People want electric peaks followed by a dramatic fall from grace.
We all have our biases, and human memory is the probably worst point of reference when we try to judge players on a competitive basis. Nobody saw every single competitive match in history, and so much of it is lost forever that it cannot be done even if one had the drive to do so. I don't think it's possible to ever have a close enough grasp on what actually happened these past twenty years or so, but I think studying the past is our duty, if it is in our interest to at least partially overcome our unreliable memories.
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Thank you for the interesting read!
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On September 27 2017 00:09 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 22:09 LightSpectra wrote:
It's interesting that all of the ZvT masters like Jaedong, July, and YellOw[ArnC] were all known for being micro experts rather than brainy macro players. sAviOr excluded of course--the Maestro really was one of a kind. sAviOr was indeed spectacular versus terran players when he was in full swing. However, his domination, even if we confine the conversation to his respected zerg-versus-terran match-up, was mainly limited to his MSL performances [et al]
Thanks for the elaborate reply, I learned quite a bit there. (I also incidentally learned why I never remembered seeing sAviOr in any OSLs before the one he won against NaDa, so thanks for that especially.)
The point I was making is that it seems as though god-tier ZvT requires mechanics more than anything (since sAviOr was the only player in that list who was known for being relatively slow and sloppy, but methodical and strategic, like iloveoov). So maybe the recent imbalance in TvZ has less to do with the current mech metagame being imba than it has to do with the fact that all the best BW players simply don't have the same level mechanics as they did when they lived in team houses and had strict training regimens.
I started watching BW after the time of YellOw and Boxer had passed, but from what I've read, YellOw was also considered to be more of a clutch micro player than a brainy macro one.
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United States20661 Posts
YellOw was honestly a thinking man's Zerg. Kongtalisk != a compliment to his mutalisk control.
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On September 27 2017 00:39 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 23:06 Chef wrote:These blogs are so awesome The post 2007 list is so accurate to how the foreign scene thinks of the players. YouTube only came into existence in 2005. It was possible to torrent vods a little before youtube, but it took ages and I only ever did it once in awhile. After nevake and jon747 and moktira and the other noble uploaders, the whole scene became so much easier to follow, rather than just the highlights and the finals. We all had watched a grrr vod, or some nada, boxer, july vods in 140p, but that glorious era of just being able to watch off YouTube... I would say by the time I started watching a fairly large number of vods, they were 2/3rds through their careers, the original kings. I remember knowing who Yellow, Reach etc were before 2005, but that was more through Pimpest Play's screenshots and battlereports than it was through the perhaps dozen vods I had found and spent 6 hours each downloading at 6kb/s. Foreigners respect the old legends, but it was through a mist of mystique that they did so. We imitated in our games what we heard about, but rarely ever saw the original vods they came from. I think it is the same for almost any competitive scene. Colour broadcasting first became available after the 1970 World Cup (featuring Pele's last ever appearance at the World Cup), and the football legends people constantly talk about are Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, and Maradona. It's like football starts with Pele, and legends that came after him. All it takes is one well publicized performance, something that catches the imagine of the masses, and it's enough to overshadow years worth of excellence with actual substance in a lot of the cases. People say they value consistency, but history tells us otherwise. People want sexy narratives. People want electric peaks followed by a dramatic fall from grace. We all have our biases, and human memory is the probably worst point of reference when we try to judge players on a competitive basis. Nobody saw every single competitive match in history, and so much of it is lost forever that it cannot be done even if one had the drive to do so. I don't think it's possible to ever have a close enough grasp on what actually happened these past twenty years or so, but I think studying the past is our duty, if it is in our interest to at least partially overcome our unreliable memories.
I think another way of saying people like sexy narratives that is a little easier to quantify is people like high pressure scenarios. A high pressure scenario is almost by definition exciting, something that brings out the very best in a person. So even if a player has a mediocre overall record, we're impressed when they perform under the highest demands.
Metrics that might measure that:
Opponent's current heat ( either a win-streak, or a duration of excellent win-rate ).
Map disfavour in the last n games played on it.
Money to be won, stage of the tournament to be advanced to.
External pressures on the opponent to win.
External pressures on the hero to win.
Distracting life factors.
Matchup difficulty for hero (a few times it's been more interesting when a player overcomes a matchup they're considered not to be strong at).
So you're right, consistency is definitely not the main thing many fans care about. We really like players we can attach to, and unfair circumstances and tall orders are something we can relate to and love to vicariously overcome.
But if you have other things in addition to consistency, consistency never hurts. Consistency means your name sticks around and you have more chances to make a heroic run at a tournament. We'd probably forget Nada's poem if that were the only tournament he ever played. The fact that he is both consistent and dramatic is really what makes him unforgettable. I think we actually remember Effort more because of how strong an opponent Flash was than because of how strong Effort was. And because they played in a goddamn aircraft hanger.
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Japan11286 Posts
A few notes:
Maybe the reason Reach is ridiculed for his PvZ is due to finals PvZ losses, notably to July and sAviOr. Maybe it's like how BoxeR was viewed due to finals losses to Garimto, Reach and Anytime.
I find it kind of amusing how Choi In-kyu made the list despite starting out as a Random player. And on this note, I found Junwi's entry in ZvT quite surprising. I had the impression that he fell from grace quickly sometime after MyCube OSL.
Man, Bisu and Stork ate a lot of their Protoss brethren to be the only two in the list for PvP.
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On September 27 2017 12:02 c3rberUs wrote:
A few notes:
Maybe the reason Reach is ridiculed for his PvZ is due to finals PvZ losses, notably to July and sAviOr. Maybe it's like how BoxeR was viewed due to finals losses to Garimto, Reach and Anytime.
I find it kind of amusing how Choi In-kyu made the list despite starting out as a Random player. And on this note, I found Junwi's entry in ZvT quite surprising. I had the impression that he fell from grace quickly sometime after MyCube OSL.
Man, Bisu and Stork ate a lot of their Protoss brethren to be the only two in the list for PvP.
It's fine to criticize players for poor results in the finals, however, what should be avoided is trying to paint a picture only from their most memorable moments. The entire spectrum of a player's performance should be looked at. Their peak years, their slumps, their performance under a ProLeague setting, their performance in the lower stages of the major individual leagues, and their performances in the finals. The whole shabang.
Taking a few memorable slices out of a seasoned veteran like Reach, who played over eight-hundred domestic competitive games during his professional career, is failing to capture all the subtle nuances that could be inferred.
For example, Reach's protoss-versus-zerg results varied throughout the years:
Reach's PvZ in 2002:
69-39 (63.89%)
Reach's PvZ in 2004 (when he met July in the finals):
23-17 (57.5%)
Reach's PvZ in 2005 (when he met sAviOr in the finals):
19-25 (43.18%)
Judging Reach's protoss-versus-zerg prowess solely off his performance versus the likes of sAviOr is like trying to judge sAviOr's zerg-versus-terran prowess by looking at how well he did versus Firebathero. In fact, I would argue that it's even more unfair towards Reach that he is being judged harshly for his performances at a certain match-up in 2005, since he hit his peak form at the match-up in 2002. That's a three year difference we're talking about.
sAviOr went from having 73.68% win rate in the zerg-versus-terran match-up in 2006, to having a 34.88% win rate in 2008, after merely two years. If the testimonies from Hwasin are to be trusted, this was when sAviOr was yet to be involved in match-fixing, so his atrociously bad results were reflective of his skill, not his morals. Yet everybody is kind enough to differentiate between the two polar results.
It's unfair to judge the entirety of a player's career by focusing on small snippets of their careers, it's like judging a sports player by their highlight reels. It shouldn't be the only basis for judgement. Some people think it's a slight on BoxeR that he lost to Anytime in 2005. BoxeR was active in 1999, and was still reaching the finals in 2005 when almost everybody from his own era had retired completely. The turn-over rate for top players was much faster too, since Brood War was the most played game by the youth back then.
Finally, both Stork and Bisu benefited from the increased number of protoss-versus-protoss matches made available by the huge inflation of ProLeague schedule (which has way higher proportion of mirror match-ups since players get to choose which maps they appear on).
Total number of protoss-versus-protoss matches from the beginning of competitive Brood War in Korea, to the day before Shinhan 2007 ProLeague (2758 days): 1024 games
Total number of protoss-versus-protoss matches from the beginning of Shinhan 2007 ProLeague, to the end of Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague (1212 days): 1315 games
That's more mirror match-ups available for modern day protoss players like Stork, and Bisu within the span of less than half the time frame. It's why Jaedong got to play such ridiculous numbers of zerg-versus-zerg, and why Flash has played so much terran-versus-terran games despite his relatively shorter professional career compared to the other legends.
Basically in conclusion, being a modern day legend (which includes being a ProLeague ace for your team, which cannot be achieved without having a strong mirror match-up ability) accentuated the records involving the mirror match-ups by default.
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I might be asking a dumb question, but what is it about NaDa that he had so many games played more than Flash? Tournament density, or just career length? iirc he was active well into 2009 but also didn't have amazing results by that point.
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These posts are very interesting and informative, thank you!
Also interesting is how small the list of players with 60%+ overall career win rates is. I counted 8 (the big 5 + Effort/oov/Nada), and the TLPD database has 1081 players listed...incredible.
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EPT
