• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:17
CEST 09:17
KST 16:17
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?21Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)8Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over2New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!40Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game SC4ALL: II Winner Will Earn a Spot at HSC 30! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) September World Ranking: herO leads, Serral climbs Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles
Tourneys
IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly SC2 INu's Battles#20 [BO.9] 2026 GSTL Announcement Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome
Brood War
General
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? ASL22 General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS [ASL22] Ro24 Group F
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Why Word Games Are So Good for Keeping Your Mind Sharp Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5966 users

Starcraft for Advanced Players

Blogs > FiveHundred
Post a Reply
FiveHundred
Profile Blog Joined April 2017
109 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-12 23:31:13
May 10 2017 08:39 GMT
#1
foreward by the player

The game is coming along well. I got a few twinges of carpal tunnel as I went along so we've slowed down a bit to around ~250 APM (which is still pretty close to my career average). There's a lot to be said for superposition and quantum states storing data. For instance I can play some games with my youthful body and not experience carpal tunnel at all. On the other hand, if I play against players that I knew from way back when, sometimes the carpal tunnel triggers. Talk about psychosomatic, huh?

the first replay
We're getting into some PvP on Fish as it seems Korean players are becoming more interested in the matchup. It's a great break for me since I never played Corsair/Reaver PvZ for concentration reasons. Since my current style of PvT is pretty similar to Corsair/Reaver learning the mechanics is interesting--you've got to be present for a lot of situations and some of them unexpected. As we know from talks with pro players, a lot of PvP and in fact many Protoss matchups in general aren't like this. Usually the top level Protosses (or at least me) get most of the work done before the fighting starts--so the game is a positioning war that isn't anything like the rough and tumble Corsair/Reaver.

This is a great game. There were a lot of spikes during the game, so I know we were shifting the direction of play a lot. I can't really see opening any other way than ramp shield battery Robo in PvP because it hedges out so much stuff. We get to open into a fast expansion without much worry about the noisome early game pressure that can sometimes throw you off as Protoss. Of course there are still two Gate openings and so you'd have to scout these and get ready, but the shield battery might be plenty to ensure a hold--we only need to snipe one or two units before taking losses in order to ensure victory in these spots. Thus the shield battery giving us an extra 200+ health should be more than sufficient unless we're really overwhelmed.

The opponent is pretty erratic this game, and we see that sniping Nexuses may not be that good. He's obviously quite far ahead in that way of thinking, but necessarily throws away some army and doesn't get a lot of work done. It would be interesting to crunch these numbers since at least in theory he can throw away 10+ units to kill a Nexus and still come out pretty far ahead economically. We need to be more alert about getting stuff done with the Corsairs whether it's scouting or preventing drops. ~1500 resources for the dual upgrades on our Corsairs is pretty nice if we've got 7~8 full energy Corsairs. Since we're playing Zealot Archon we only need to micro so much and Disruption web may prove even better than Psi Storm for control reasons.

I can imagine playing a more passive style with this build also, to showcase some earlier ideas. Since we upgrade observer speed it's theoretically possible to deny expansions almost indefinitely with our Corsairs and a DT, but I'm not sure this is the route for us. It's reasonable but might cost a lot of concentration. The biggest realization is our opponent will need Dragoons to shoot down our Arbiters. Dragoons are really pretty terrible against Archon Zealot unless you have the leisure of killing Archons with your Dragoons. Depending on how structured the battles turn out to be, Disruption Web might be really clutch in this situation.



the second replay
This is a great game. We get an added bonus of discovering the robustness of 16 probes before Nexus. Protoss players from the old days will certainly appreciate this theory of simply building a Forge and then following with 16 probes before the Nexus. There are a great many PvZ games lost simply out of "confusion" in the very early game, which is in itself a sort of sore phenomenon for BW. BW, for various reasons is one of the highest stress games there is--and I think many players would agree that losing in the early game "to something ridiculous" is one of the most off-putting elements.

Personally I can recall a great many games debating 12 Nexus or 12 Forge, 12 Forge and 14 Nexus, or 12 Forge and Gateway to pressure. Basically there are a lot of varieties of good PvZ openings, and for whatever reason learning the fast expansion takes a lot of work. Here we start developing something more simple: 12 Forge and 16 Nexus into a Pylon, more Probes and an Assimilator. It's very important to recall that we have a Probe on the map, and a Probe at the expansion building structures (cannons and Gateway). Therefore it makes a big difference how we handle this. We can build a 12 Forge, and then Probes to 16, giving us 14 mining Probes plus the construction Probe and the scouting Probe. With the Assimilator in the main, we can reasonably support a 21 Probe economy on our first base, meaning that even with the 16 Nexus no mining time is lost. The biggest advantage to this is that with the stronger economy Protoss doesn't have to debate about spending extra resources on a second or third cannon depending on what the scouting probe sees. This could actually by itself make a big difference in the long term PvZ winrate.

Most of what's going on next is discussed in the reVOD. Since we open 16 Nexus we have a somewhat stronger economy going into our 4 Gate Zealot speed which means we don't have to debate about economy versus Zealots. The initial Zealot attack might be slightly slower or about the same, but as long as mass Hydra is the meta, having a very balanced approach to defending is probably best, and 16 Nexus seems to give us this.

As you can see from the replay, I try to do some different stuff. We open 2 Stargate Corsair into Fleet Beacon for D-web. I actually like this a lot after looking at the resource breakdown. D-web and 250 energy plus the Fleet Beacon only costs 600/500 which is not hugely expensive. We are also very strong against Mutalisk. It isn't obvious that we hit a nice timing against Lurkers--we might or we might not. If the Zerg is relying on Lurkers and sunkens for defense against our Zealots then we can d-web them and maybe take a Hatchery. We also have the option of hunting Overlords with more leisure as in the replay.



the third replay
We look at making a FPVOD, which I thought would be fun because I've never made one before. We're still running into some timing questions in the opener.

We had some problems this game. There's really no reason to give up the expansion early as you've seen in several of the reVODs. it is of course perfectly legitimate to just build 400 mineral Nexuses all over the map and send probes everywhere since the Terran won't have Vultures. other players might approach this differently.... We're slowing down our play a bit to help with overcoming carpal tunnel. I've been running into some ghosting issues with my left arm which has prevented some of the more elegant plays we might hope to see.

I don't think the Shuttle expand should be used willy nilly. It's definitely an option for this build from the standpoint of a more strategic player. There's not much to say about the game itself other than it requires a lot of commentary with the psychological aspects. It's a bad habit to look away at crucial moments, even to macro or keep spending down. Aggression pays seems to be a focal point in many exercises of this nature, even Chess. There are psychological reasons why players choose to be aggressive. But there are also psychological reasons to play defensively. It's important to think about the game, and to address minor issues as they arise.

Starcraft should be fun, and shouldn't require too much work. We'd like to play 10 games a day but that's a difficult schedule to keep. The most important part of life is outside Starcraft, which is important to keep in mind. It might not benefit us to play a lot of back-to-back games, however much fun this is. I don't live a regimented life, and I think it's important to be lazy. We don't want a bunch of Pyramid time of course where we lie around in coffins listening to waterfalls. If that's what it takes to be happy, then go for it, but remember to keep the first things first.



conclusion of thread music Video: this video explains why it is impossible for us to ever get along./

Deep South



*
Recipient of a divinity survey. Users can identify you by your password. A cat is a fully-explained dog.
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2015 Posts
May 10 2017 23:57 GMT
#2
Wonderful play!
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
FiveHundred
Profile Blog Joined April 2017
109 Posts
May 11 2017 03:11 GMT
#3
On May 11 2017 08:57 LastWish wrote:
Wonderful play!


haha thanks i especially liked 13!
Recipient of a divinity survey. Users can identify you by your password. A cat is a fully-explained dog.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10552 Posts
May 12 2017 09:25 GMT
#4
what rank is this?
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
FiveHundred
Profile Blog Joined April 2017
109 Posts
May 12 2017 10:02 GMT
#5
On May 12 2017 18:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
what rank is this?


i just queue games on fish, all praise to 1.18. (it's usa vs korea, obv). the quest for universal LANtancy.
Recipient of a divinity survey. Users can identify you by your password. A cat is a fully-explained dog.
Bengalaas!!
Profile Joined April 2017
15 Posts
May 12 2017 19:07 GMT
#6
On May 12 2017 18:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
what rank is this?


whatever the lowest rank is
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
22:30
Masters Cup #151
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 601
Shinee 70
Noble 27
NaDa 18
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm157
Fuzer 58
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King161
Other Games
summit1g6346
Coldzera 873
ceh9452
XaKoH 297
C9.Mang0204
Livibee141
[ Show 10 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1203
Upcoming Events
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3h 43m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 2h
Big Brain Bouts
1d 2h
Garitos vs ArT
Lambo vs Percival
TriGGeR vs ByuN
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
OSC
2 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
2 days
Mixu vs TBD
Spirit vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
Patches Events
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
[ Show More ]
GSL
4 days
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.