• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:37
CEST 11:37
KST 18:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon99Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?179Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Has online-only competition during the pandemic changed your enjoyment of pro SC2? How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament KSL Week #92
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice
Brood War
General
Remastered crash fix suggestions New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Syncronization issues and can't find games a Announcement on the JEDI Ringing
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro16 Group D The Casual Games of the Week Thread Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Diablo IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
JiliPack Unveils Daily Mystery Rewards US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9952 users

Starcraft for Advanced Players

Blogs > FiveHundred
Post a Reply
FiveHundred
Profile Blog Joined April 2017
109 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-12 23:31:13
May 10 2017 08:39 GMT
#1
foreward by the player

The game is coming along well. I got a few twinges of carpal tunnel as I went along so we've slowed down a bit to around ~250 APM (which is still pretty close to my career average). There's a lot to be said for superposition and quantum states storing data. For instance I can play some games with my youthful body and not experience carpal tunnel at all. On the other hand, if I play against players that I knew from way back when, sometimes the carpal tunnel triggers. Talk about psychosomatic, huh?

the first replay
We're getting into some PvP on Fish as it seems Korean players are becoming more interested in the matchup. It's a great break for me since I never played Corsair/Reaver PvZ for concentration reasons. Since my current style of PvT is pretty similar to Corsair/Reaver learning the mechanics is interesting--you've got to be present for a lot of situations and some of them unexpected. As we know from talks with pro players, a lot of PvP and in fact many Protoss matchups in general aren't like this. Usually the top level Protosses (or at least me) get most of the work done before the fighting starts--so the game is a positioning war that isn't anything like the rough and tumble Corsair/Reaver.

This is a great game. There were a lot of spikes during the game, so I know we were shifting the direction of play a lot. I can't really see opening any other way than ramp shield battery Robo in PvP because it hedges out so much stuff. We get to open into a fast expansion without much worry about the noisome early game pressure that can sometimes throw you off as Protoss. Of course there are still two Gate openings and so you'd have to scout these and get ready, but the shield battery might be plenty to ensure a hold--we only need to snipe one or two units before taking losses in order to ensure victory in these spots. Thus the shield battery giving us an extra 200+ health should be more than sufficient unless we're really overwhelmed.

The opponent is pretty erratic this game, and we see that sniping Nexuses may not be that good. He's obviously quite far ahead in that way of thinking, but necessarily throws away some army and doesn't get a lot of work done. It would be interesting to crunch these numbers since at least in theory he can throw away 10+ units to kill a Nexus and still come out pretty far ahead economically. We need to be more alert about getting stuff done with the Corsairs whether it's scouting or preventing drops. ~1500 resources for the dual upgrades on our Corsairs is pretty nice if we've got 7~8 full energy Corsairs. Since we're playing Zealot Archon we only need to micro so much and Disruption web may prove even better than Psi Storm for control reasons.

I can imagine playing a more passive style with this build also, to showcase some earlier ideas. Since we upgrade observer speed it's theoretically possible to deny expansions almost indefinitely with our Corsairs and a DT, but I'm not sure this is the route for us. It's reasonable but might cost a lot of concentration. The biggest realization is our opponent will need Dragoons to shoot down our Arbiters. Dragoons are really pretty terrible against Archon Zealot unless you have the leisure of killing Archons with your Dragoons. Depending on how structured the battles turn out to be, Disruption Web might be really clutch in this situation.



the second replay
This is a great game. We get an added bonus of discovering the robustness of 16 probes before Nexus. Protoss players from the old days will certainly appreciate this theory of simply building a Forge and then following with 16 probes before the Nexus. There are a great many PvZ games lost simply out of "confusion" in the very early game, which is in itself a sort of sore phenomenon for BW. BW, for various reasons is one of the highest stress games there is--and I think many players would agree that losing in the early game "to something ridiculous" is one of the most off-putting elements.

Personally I can recall a great many games debating 12 Nexus or 12 Forge, 12 Forge and 14 Nexus, or 12 Forge and Gateway to pressure. Basically there are a lot of varieties of good PvZ openings, and for whatever reason learning the fast expansion takes a lot of work. Here we start developing something more simple: 12 Forge and 16 Nexus into a Pylon, more Probes and an Assimilator. It's very important to recall that we have a Probe on the map, and a Probe at the expansion building structures (cannons and Gateway). Therefore it makes a big difference how we handle this. We can build a 12 Forge, and then Probes to 16, giving us 14 mining Probes plus the construction Probe and the scouting Probe. With the Assimilator in the main, we can reasonably support a 21 Probe economy on our first base, meaning that even with the 16 Nexus no mining time is lost. The biggest advantage to this is that with the stronger economy Protoss doesn't have to debate about spending extra resources on a second or third cannon depending on what the scouting probe sees. This could actually by itself make a big difference in the long term PvZ winrate.

Most of what's going on next is discussed in the reVOD. Since we open 16 Nexus we have a somewhat stronger economy going into our 4 Gate Zealot speed which means we don't have to debate about economy versus Zealots. The initial Zealot attack might be slightly slower or about the same, but as long as mass Hydra is the meta, having a very balanced approach to defending is probably best, and 16 Nexus seems to give us this.

As you can see from the replay, I try to do some different stuff. We open 2 Stargate Corsair into Fleet Beacon for D-web. I actually like this a lot after looking at the resource breakdown. D-web and 250 energy plus the Fleet Beacon only costs 600/500 which is not hugely expensive. We are also very strong against Mutalisk. It isn't obvious that we hit a nice timing against Lurkers--we might or we might not. If the Zerg is relying on Lurkers and sunkens for defense against our Zealots then we can d-web them and maybe take a Hatchery. We also have the option of hunting Overlords with more leisure as in the replay.



the third replay
We look at making a FPVOD, which I thought would be fun because I've never made one before. We're still running into some timing questions in the opener.

We had some problems this game. There's really no reason to give up the expansion early as you've seen in several of the reVODs. it is of course perfectly legitimate to just build 400 mineral Nexuses all over the map and send probes everywhere since the Terran won't have Vultures. other players might approach this differently.... We're slowing down our play a bit to help with overcoming carpal tunnel. I've been running into some ghosting issues with my left arm which has prevented some of the more elegant plays we might hope to see.

I don't think the Shuttle expand should be used willy nilly. It's definitely an option for this build from the standpoint of a more strategic player. There's not much to say about the game itself other than it requires a lot of commentary with the psychological aspects. It's a bad habit to look away at crucial moments, even to macro or keep spending down. Aggression pays seems to be a focal point in many exercises of this nature, even Chess. There are psychological reasons why players choose to be aggressive. But there are also psychological reasons to play defensively. It's important to think about the game, and to address minor issues as they arise.

Starcraft should be fun, and shouldn't require too much work. We'd like to play 10 games a day but that's a difficult schedule to keep. The most important part of life is outside Starcraft, which is important to keep in mind. It might not benefit us to play a lot of back-to-back games, however much fun this is. I don't live a regimented life, and I think it's important to be lazy. We don't want a bunch of Pyramid time of course where we lie around in coffins listening to waterfalls. If that's what it takes to be happy, then go for it, but remember to keep the first things first.



conclusion of thread music Video: this video explains why it is impossible for us to ever get along./

Deep South



*
Recipient of a divinity survey. Users can identify you by your password. A cat is a fully-explained dog.
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2015 Posts
May 10 2017 23:57 GMT
#2
Wonderful play!
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
FiveHundred
Profile Blog Joined April 2017
109 Posts
May 11 2017 03:11 GMT
#3
On May 11 2017 08:57 LastWish wrote:
Wonderful play!


haha thanks i especially liked 13!
Recipient of a divinity survey. Users can identify you by your password. A cat is a fully-explained dog.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10563 Posts
May 12 2017 09:25 GMT
#4
what rank is this?
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
FiveHundred
Profile Blog Joined April 2017
109 Posts
May 12 2017 10:02 GMT
#5
On May 12 2017 18:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
what rank is this?


i just queue games on fish, all praise to 1.18. (it's usa vs korea, obv). the quest for universal LANtancy.
Recipient of a divinity survey. Users can identify you by your password. A cat is a fully-explained dog.
Bengalaas!!
Profile Joined April 2017
15 Posts
May 12 2017 19:07 GMT
#6
On May 12 2017 18:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
what rank is this?


whatever the lowest rank is
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 23m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 1069
GuemChi 283
actioN 243
Stork 226
Leta 222
Soma 180
Dewaltoss 108
Hm[arnc] 58
Killer 54
sorry 53
[ Show more ]
EffOrt 47
sSak 41
Yoon 31
Aegong 22
Sharp 20
yabsab 18
Noble 9
JulyZerg 9
Dota 2
febbydoto86
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss828
Other Games
ceh9605
XaKoH 235
Pyrionflax168
OGKoka 111
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick971
BasetradeTV49
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH392
• LUISG 24
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2162
Upcoming Events
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1h 23m
herO vs SHIN
Percival vs ByuN
RotterdaM Event
6h 38m
Replay Cast
14h 23m
GSL
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 14h
GSL
2 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
2 days
Spirit vs Mixu
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Shine vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs EffOrt
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Calamity Invitational
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.