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It seems that everyone who I like and respect not only dislikes Donald Trump but hates him passionately. My family are pretty smart and easy going people, but all of the sudden with Trump they show extreme disgust and revel in the most petty gossip against him. I hear all over the media and in conversation how only stupid and bigoted people could possibly support him. And yet to me, when looking at the whole field of candidates we were offered, he honestly seems the most appealing. In real life Iʻm actually afraid to say this to anyone for fear of being ostracized.
The constant criticisms of him often strike me as petty, irrelevant and gossipy. This is perhaps a result of him offering little of substance to be critiqued. That is my main gripe with him actually - how vague he is on details. All he is offering are big promises that he will not deliver on, but I expect no less from any politician.
So what is my liking based on? I think that I see him as someone willing to take action rather than trying to appease everyone. In my view this was Obamaʻs flaw... despite being highly intelligent and congenial, he struck me as ineffective because he was always being trampled by the legislature and the whims of public opinion. I believe Trump would lead with a much firmer hand, whether for good or ill I honestly canʻt tell. But that gamble seems better than the certainty of continued rule by the two parties, who spend all their time sabotaging each other and trying to score points. Trump is the only candidate that strikes me as an individual rather than a cog in the two party machine.
  
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yes,
..then again, supporting the opposition of that candidate could turn out to not be very different in the end, no?
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On July 24 2016 03:14 fluidrone wrote:
yes,
..then again, supporting the opposition of that candidate could turn out to not be very different in the end, no?
I think that is very possible.
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For those who say yes, I would appreciate if you could elaborate, even briefly. It's interesting for me to hear the opinions of those outside the US especially.
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Well.. On July 24 2016 03:18 Starlightsun wrote:
For those who say yes, I would appreciate if you could elaborate, even briefly. It's interesting for me to hear the opinions of those outside the US especially.
.. you mean, before this thread gets ugly and closed?
The aforementioned presidential candidate you support (candidate for which I can't vote for or against myself, so it is easy to be clear cut)..
he seems to spend a lot of time hating some people he has never met .., no?
For a leader of the free world, does that not strike you as counter productive in 2016?
(I mean go and kill bad guys to make things better and basically shun everyone behind the ZardoZ wall.. yeah sounds kind of edgy to me for a "christian" in 2016)
Then again, the "for poor people too" opposing camp does not even seem to manage to produce an opponent worthy of international presence/fame/existence !?
I stay away from most information and as a frog, I don't even know the name of said opposing candidate .. unless it is beatrice levinsky clinton?
She old news and would lose from where i'm sitting.. i think the last thing i heard was that the "good" candidate got creamed even though he should obviously had been selected, .. sorry can't honestly remember the name...
She would be mean if she was elected .. you'll see (i mean you won't see anything because she will lose to wallmart tarantutrump!)..
... if she had won, she'd be meannnnnn 
All in all your position is that of a guy that is joining the party late.. and choosing the favorite out of "strategic" intuition or something... so no you are not crazy.. you just don't get it!
#Typical catch 22
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On July 24 2016 03:22 fluidrone wrote:
The aforementioned presidential candidate you support (candidate for which I can't vote for or against myself, so it is easy to be clear cut)..
he seems to spend a lot of time hating some people he has never met .., no?
For a leader of the free world, does that not strike you as counter productive in 2016?
(I mean go and kill bad guys to make things better and basically shun everyone behind the ZardoZ wall.. yeah sounds kind of edgy to me for a "christian" in 2016)
By "hating people he's never met" you are referring to Muslims I assume? While I think it is a childish and stupid suggestion to ban Muslims from entering the US, I don't get the impression that he is motivated by bigotry and hatred. He may be guilty of encouraging those things in a portion of his followers, but I think that policy-wise it is pure empty rhetoric, just like his promises to fix the debt, restore the peace etc. He strikes me as too cunning and pragmatic to be another George W Bush who launches war on the Islamic world. I could be very wrong of course but these are my impressions.
She would be mean if she was elected .. you'll see (i mean you won't see anything because she will lose to wallmart tarantutrump!).. ... if she had won, she'd be meannnnnn
My problem with Clinton is not that she's mean (I don't even think she is). What I don't like about her is her air of utter duplicity and cynicism. The Clinton family seems as entrenched as the Bush family in our nation's politics, which is rife with bribery (lobbying) and corruption. I fear Clinton will smile to our face while she fleeces us like sheep, whereas if Trump destroys us at least you will know it's coming and who is to blame.
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I will give some examples of why Trump is so hated, and I am certain that others could provide many more reasons.
1. He encourages violence. [Example]
2. He lies repeatedly. Politifact's profile on him says over half of Trump's statements that they checked were false. They even gave Trump's campaign their Lie of the Year award for 2015. And when Trump is called out on lying, he will either continue to lie or make excuses for lying.
3. His involvement in some seriously shady businesses. Trump University is a great example of this.
4. His belittling attitude towards women. From owning Miss USA/Universe to dismissing Megyn Kelly by suggesting she was having her period [source]; he seems to view women as only useful for sex. He also talked about punishing women for getting an abortion [source] (one of the few things he later back-tracked on.)
5. His racism. For example; comments about banning all muslims and the majority of Mexicans in the US being criminals.
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Asking whether "you should support someone" is a tricky question. I think very few people find Trump remotely admirable. As the primary progressed, however, the calculus turned from whether he was your first choice to what was the benefit or drawback of supporting him.
I don't like blaming institutions a lot (mostly because institutions can't fix shitty people), but this definitely was a breakdown of the primary system. The candidates with broad appeal dropped out early (Bush, Rubio), while the candidates with less broad appeal but strong bases persisted. Faced with this choice, I think a lot of people went with the person they thought would win or had the best chance of winning. A lot of Republican leadership initially balked at the idea of nominating someone who wasn't a Republican, definitely isn't a Conservative and has a grab-bag of positions, but it seems that most of them have decided that it's better to support him than get Hillary.
You may support Trump because you just don't want Hillary.
You may support Trump because you think he may be guided somewhat by Republican leadership.
You may support Trump because you you would just rather a Republican be in office than a Democrat.
These are all "supporting Trump" without actually liking him.
As for Trump himself, "This is perhaps a result of him offering little of substance to be critiqued". Well I don't know what else you have to say. His views (as far as we can make out) are pretty much a grab bag. Against Free Trade. Hard on immigration. Hard on terrorism but soft on foreign intervention? I can't really peg down what group you'd exactly put him in. Some people have suggested Populist; I guess that makes him and Warren buddies. Apart from that, he's a pretty personally repellent person and seems to lack all tact, humility and is a petulant, thin-skinned namecaller. I suspect that's what turns most people off more than the actual policies.
I agree that the media coverage is a little dumb. I mean, there's enough stupidity to criticize. You can attack him on his own merits without having to call him a racist or say he's going to create concentration camps. I think that says a lot about the media.
Edit: After reading other posts in the thread: I don't think he's a racist. I think he's an arrogant, self-interested ass, but not a racist. In some ways, his character is at odds with racism. He sees people as tools to an end. You don't care what race your tool is. He doesn't have a home or a culture or an ideology that he cares about that might engender defensiveness leading to racism.
I think that in a lot of people's minds there is a taint of racism in not wanting illegal immigration or in vetting Muslim immigrants. They aren't really related, but it's there, so if you're REALLY against illegal immigration and REALLY intent on vetting Muslim immigrants, that must mean you are REALLY beyond a shadow of a doubt racist. Which is lazy thinking and distracts from thoughtful consideration of the issues.
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This is teamliquid, almost everyone here is going to say yes because of how the media over exaggerates his words. I don't know if I support him, but I support him a hell of a lot more then fucking Hillary.
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On July 24 2016 04:34 Starlightsun wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 24 2016 03:22 fluidrone wrote:
The aforementioned presidential candidate you support (candidate for which I can't vote for or against myself, so it is easy to be clear cut)..
he seems to spend a lot of time hating some people he has never met .., no?
For a leader of the free world, does that not strike you as counter productive in 2016?
(I mean go and kill bad guys to make things better and basically shun everyone behind the ZardoZ wall.. yeah sounds kind of edgy to me for a "christian" in 2016) By "hating people he's never met" you are referring to Muslims I assume? While I think it is a childish and stupid suggestion to ban Muslims from entering the US, I don't get the impression that he is motivated by bigotry and hatred. He may be guilty of encouraging those things in a portion of his followers, but I think that policy-wise it is pure empty rhetoric, just like his promises to fix the debt, restore the peace etc. He strikes me as too cunning and pragmatic to be another George W Bush who launches war on the Islamic world. I could be very wrong of course but these are my impressions.
Not really, I meant anyone he has to talk to to get elected, and the rest of the world doesnt even factor in apparently ?!
+ Show Spoiler +She would be mean if she was elected .. you'll see (i mean you won't see anything because she will lose to wallmart tarantutrump!).. ... if she had won, she'd be meannnnnn My problem with Clinton is not that she's mean (I don't even think she is). What I don't like about her is her air of utter duplicity and cynicism. The Clinton family seems as entrenched as the Bush family in our nation's politics, which is rife with bribery (lobbying) and corruption. I fear Clinton will smile to our face while she fleeces us like sheep, whereas if Trump destroys us at least you will know it's coming and who is to blame.
i typed mean / you typed "utter duplicity and cynicism".. same
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Asking whether "you should support someone" is a tricky question. I think very few people find Trump remotely admirable. As the primary progressed, however, the calculus turned from whether he was your first choice to what was the benefit or drawback of supporting him.
I don't like blaming institutions a lot (mostly because institutions can't fix shitty people), but this definitely was a breakdown of the primary system. The candidates with broad appeal dropped out early (Bush, Rubio), while the candidates with less broad appeal but strong bases persisted. Faced with this choice, I think a lot of people went with the person they thought would win or had the best chance of winning. A lot of Republican leadership initially balked at the idea of nominating someone who wasn't a Republican, definitely isn't a Conservative and has a grab-bag of positions, but it seems that most of them have decided that it's better to support him than get Hillary.
You may support Trump because you just don't want Hillary.
You may support Trump because you think he may be guided somewhat by Republican leadership.
You may support Trump because you you would just rather a Republican be in office than a Democrat.
These are all "supporting Trump" without actually liking him.
Yes I think "support" may be too strong a word... He just does seem to me like the best out of a terrible bunch. It might be a case of "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of thing. I greatly enjoyed the spectacle of the Republicans, the Democrats and the national media all trying their damnedest to stop Trump from being nominated. Perhaps that is the whole basis of my liking of him... I admit I'm very uninformed. I feel it is hard to be otherwise when all the competing sources of information are so full of deceit and propaganda.
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I obviously don't support him, but maybe if he's elected something will snap in the collective minds of my fellow US citizens and things will actually start changing around here. If I had a guarantee that'd happen, I'd vote for Trump with no regrets.
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The guy just says what people want. You say it in your post, he's making a lot of promises he probably can't keep and a lot he absolutely can't keep.
I don't think you're crazy for supporting him but a lot of crazies are supporting him. Such as climate change deniers and people who think the coal industry is the backbone of american hegemony. People who think Lucifer walks the earth and that Obama is the antichrist.
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On July 24 2016 04:34 Melliflue wrote:
I will give some examples of why Trump is so hated, and I am certain that others could provide many more reasons.
Thanks this is the kind of thing I was looking for.
1. He encourages violence. [ Example]
I don't know, does this warrant the label of encouraging serious violence? Are there more examples? You don't have to hunt for them or anything I will take your word on it.
2. He lies repeatedly. Politifact's profile on him says over half of Trump's statements that they checked were false. They even gave Trump's campaign their Lie of the Year award for 2015. And when Trump is called out on lying, he will either continue to lie or make excuses for lying. 3. His involvement in some seriously shady businesses. Trump University is a great example of this.
I guess I'm so used to be lied to by politicians that his lying doesn't really raise my indignation. I'm more interested in actions than words, ie will he use his lies to implement unjust and oppressive policies, or are they just grabs for votes? As for being involved in shady business, this is true of Clinton as well, for example her cattle speculation and the email server thing, which people who work in that field seem to think was criminal negligence.
4. His belittling attitude towards women. From owning Miss USA/Universe to dismissing Megyn Kelly by suggesting she was having her period [ source]; he seems to view women as only useful for sex. He also talked about punishing women for getting an abortion [ source] (one of the few things he later back-tracked on.) 5. His racism. For example; comments about banning all muslims and the majority of Mexicans in the US being criminals.
That insinuation about Megyn Kelly was tactless, but on the other hand she was completely unprofessional, and I have little sympathy for journalists (on FOX news no less), who are some of the worst bullies and destroyers of rational discourse that exist. I think it's quite a stretch to say Trump views women as "only useful for sex" or that he hates women.
As for racism, I don't know... His claims to build a wall blocking Mexico and to ban all Muslims from the US seem calculated to pander to racists yes, but I can't see him seriously implementing either of these policies. I'd be more concerned with subtle, persuasive racism than these outbursts of idiocy. For 8 years we've had a biracial, tolerant president who says all the right things, yet race relations seem worse than ever. I can only see Clinton continuing this trend, whereas with Trump I feel there is at least a chance that he will make up with policy what he fails at with words.
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On July 24 2016 04:58 blade55555 wrote:
This is teamliquid, almost everyone here is going to say yes because of how the media over exaggerates his words. I don't know if I support him, but I support him a hell of a lot more then fucking Hillary.
This is exactly how I feel.
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On July 24 2016 05:48 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 04:58 blade55555 wrote:
This is teamliquid, almost everyone here is going to say yes because of how the media over exaggerates his words. I don't know if I support him, but I support him a hell of a lot more then fucking Hillary. This is exactly how I feel.
ditto, although I'll probably just "throw away my vote" on some independent.
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EPT
