• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 13:08
CET 19:08
KST 03:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13
StarCraft 2
General
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win SC2 Proleague Discontinued; SKT, KT, SGK, CJ disband
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) RSL Offline FInals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation
Brood War
General
[ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion Which season is the best in ASL? Data analysis on 70 million replays BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread The Perfect Game Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Big Programming Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
Physical Exertion During Gam…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1448 users

Machiavelli's Legacy - Page 2

Blogs > Awesomedrifter
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-15 10:00:38
December 15 2015 09:51 GMT
#21
I am not so sure that political leaders suffer all that much in the polls from being known as ruthless, not unlike in "the prince", if your "subjects" don't fear "enough" you they will not follow you, if you disgust them possibly it impairs a little for sure .. but we still often vote for the lesser of two evils.. not for someone we would want/cherish/trust.. because those "perfect" people we would wish do not exist .. us being all unique makes us all the same.

I would further argue that PR in political cabinets is kind of like blizz PR (marketing "tip toeing" facts unto people).. they don't know what to do and ruthlessness and even more "go kill yourself" stance will become more and more accepted/standard!

I maybe need remind the young people that if you want to change the world.. you will die doing it.. look up all the dead before their time.. they were honorable or not, moral or not, but by trying to change some people in their lifetime, long after their seeming demise (not unlike fricking ded jedis that keep poking u on the shoulder for eternity "more powerful than you will ever imagine" says wise obi wan!) they remain potent existent concept figures that make their way in the most entropic of ways.
Truth remains truth whether people want to or not and in this war of the "costume" any conception of "etiquete" or righteousness is lost before it ever began from anyone anywhere (everyone kills someone everyday type of deal).

The real issue is that good people are also lazy and do not want to sacrifice their lives for some abstract someone else.. generally speaking we wish we are good and always fall short.. at least some try. but in all fairness in 2015, when you know your head of state (whatever the country) deals with killers and lets them kill, or attack/enslave defenseless people (like to get material to make cell phones) and that it has been the "norm/standard" for "head of states" going on back well over the creation of "nations" (not much more than 1000 years ago), how in all logic can we not be disillusioned and eager to leave it to others to face the durtee that allows for many of us to be lazy comfortable sofa eating chips and p00ping in silk.
Sowy for rant :/
"not enough rights"
Awesomedrifter
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada62 Posts
December 16 2015 16:03 GMT
#22
On December 14 2015 23:29 fluidrone wrote:
Dictate happiness!
I was laughing out loud when the paradox (multitude may not be as efficient as the unique) dawned on me.

We have alpha types that want power.. what they do with it is often ingrained in their culture/past/etc but nothing makes them inherently bad for wanting that power, nor for gaining it.

The real zest of the question (for me) has always been:
does it take alphas being morally void to get to lead? Is it incidental or vital in the process?
My readings would say yes, which is kind of dark.

Knowing what you could do (to circumvent attacks that you would not allow yourself to perform) is not enough to counter what less moral / ethical opponent would do..
so it would seem impossible for anyone not using unethical/unmoral tactics/strategy to lead proficiently?


I don't think it necessarily takes someone who is morally void to lead but if they are going to stick to high moral principles they need to be fortunate in their circumstances. By abandoning moral guidance one is more likely to succeed in their ambitions although its not a strict prerequisite.

Also if you are going to use unethical means you need to be careful to hide them. Machiavelli empathizes the importance of maintaining the appearance of virtue. While you may be morally void you must understand morality and most of your actions will be morally sound. Unethical behavior can be really effective but can have unforeseen consequences and should be kept to a minimum and used only for important matters.

On December 14 2015 04:12 Glowsphere wrote:
Show nested quote +
Saying that you don't want plebiscites because you think that the people are too dumb to make meaningful decisions (loose quote from a German parliament president) is despicable in the way that it clearly goes against the democratic idea, it's morally despicable, it's clearly the statement that freedom is bad for the average person.


I don't know why that is so despicable. We wouldn't want to have everyone piloting a ship or driving a car at the same time. Similarly if we want a bridge built or disease treated, someone with expertise should be in charge. This doesn't mean "freedom is bad"... in fact, I think rule by a bunch of idiots is a worse tyranny than that of a mediocre ruler. In any society, freedom can never be unlimited, because our wants and desires will always conflict with someone else's. I think a competent, benevolent ruler can maximize freedom for the average person better than equally diffused power.


Even though not everyone may be able to pilot a ship, people can generally judge who's a good pilot and who isn't. Where as the perfect ruler may be able to do a better job in a monarchy than a democracy an imperfect ruler can do so much harm its not worth the risk. Limiting the power of any one person may prevent the "best" government but it also limits the "worse" government. Since a bad government is way worse than a good government is beneficial I think its a good idea to limit the power.

I think plebiscites are fine for minor by-laws and what not, but not for serious issues since the masses are swayed easily by good speakers and ad campaigns rather easily and they can't be expected to know and come up with a good decision when they are busy with their lives compared to someone who focuses just on political matters.
http://awesomedrifter.com/
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
December 19 2015 10:14 GMT
#23
"Hiding it"
v
Was my point. I am not too sure that in 2016 leaders want/have/should hide it that much.
Take my country for instance (frogland), it builds weapons of mass destruction while telling other people it isn't fine to do the same. It keeps whole populations in poverty and suffering to buy precious metals on "their" soil, etc etc!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating being morally reprehensible, just mentioning that "looking tough" not being "gun shy" etc gets massive amounts of votes.
Sad state of affairs really.
"not enough rights"
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
16:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #17
Babymarine vs MindelVKLIVE!
ForJumy vs TBD
Shameless vs Percival
SteadfastSC156
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 596
Lowko487
SteadfastSC 156
ProTech120
MindelVK 49
Codebar 34
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 22038
Calm 3652
Shuttle 780
Larva 475
Rush 244
firebathero 150
BeSt 128
Dewaltoss 110
yabsab 37
HiyA 23
[ Show more ]
Aegong 19
soO 16
scan(afreeca) 14
SilentControl 9
NaDa 7
JulyZerg 5
Dota 2
Gorgc7190
Dendi1109
420jenkins298
XcaliburYe156
Counter-Strike
fl0m5387
zeus558
minikerr35
chrisJcsgo31
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor157
Other Games
Grubby2953
Beastyqt382
ArmadaUGS106
KnowMe82
Mew2King75
Livibee68
Trikslyr60
QueenE57
Sick34
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 11
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2662
• WagamamaTV630
Other Games
• Shiphtur177
• imaqtpie124
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
5h 53m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 8h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 15h
WardiTV 2025
1d 17h
SC Evo League
1d 18h
BSL 21
2 days
Sziky vs OyAji
Gypsy vs eOnzErG
OSC
2 days
Solar vs Creator
ByuN vs Gerald
Percival vs Babymarine
Moja vs Krystianer
EnDerr vs ForJumy
sebesdes vs Nicoract
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV 2025
2 days
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
3 days
Bonyth vs StRyKeR
Tarson vs Dandy
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV 2025
4 days
StarCraft2.fi
4 days
PiGosaur Monday
5 days
StarCraft2.fi
5 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
WardiTV 2025
6 days
StarCraft2.fi
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-30
RSL Revival: Season 3
Light HT

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
Slon Tour Season 2
Acropolis #4 - TS3
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
Kuram Kup
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.