• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:48
CEST 02:48
KST 09:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20252Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced15BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships? Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 642 users

Machiavelli's Legacy - Page 2

Blogs > Awesomedrifter
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-15 10:00:38
December 15 2015 09:51 GMT
#21
I am not so sure that political leaders suffer all that much in the polls from being known as ruthless, not unlike in "the prince", if your "subjects" don't fear "enough" you they will not follow you, if you disgust them possibly it impairs a little for sure .. but we still often vote for the lesser of two evils.. not for someone we would want/cherish/trust.. because those "perfect" people we would wish do not exist .. us being all unique makes us all the same.

I would further argue that PR in political cabinets is kind of like blizz PR (marketing "tip toeing" facts unto people).. they don't know what to do and ruthlessness and even more "go kill yourself" stance will become more and more accepted/standard!

I maybe need remind the young people that if you want to change the world.. you will die doing it.. look up all the dead before their time.. they were honorable or not, moral or not, but by trying to change some people in their lifetime, long after their seeming demise (not unlike fricking ded jedis that keep poking u on the shoulder for eternity "more powerful than you will ever imagine" says wise obi wan!) they remain potent existent concept figures that make their way in the most entropic of ways.
Truth remains truth whether people want to or not and in this war of the "costume" any conception of "etiquete" or righteousness is lost before it ever began from anyone anywhere (everyone kills someone everyday type of deal).

The real issue is that good people are also lazy and do not want to sacrifice their lives for some abstract someone else.. generally speaking we wish we are good and always fall short.. at least some try. but in all fairness in 2015, when you know your head of state (whatever the country) deals with killers and lets them kill, or attack/enslave defenseless people (like to get material to make cell phones) and that it has been the "norm/standard" for "head of states" going on back well over the creation of "nations" (not much more than 1000 years ago), how in all logic can we not be disillusioned and eager to leave it to others to face the durtee that allows for many of us to be lazy comfortable sofa eating chips and p00ping in silk.
Sowy for rant :/
"not enough rights"
Awesomedrifter
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada62 Posts
December 16 2015 16:03 GMT
#22
On December 14 2015 23:29 fluidrone wrote:
Dictate happiness!
I was laughing out loud when the paradox (multitude may not be as efficient as the unique) dawned on me.

We have alpha types that want power.. what they do with it is often ingrained in their culture/past/etc but nothing makes them inherently bad for wanting that power, nor for gaining it.

The real zest of the question (for me) has always been:
does it take alphas being morally void to get to lead? Is it incidental or vital in the process?
My readings would say yes, which is kind of dark.

Knowing what you could do (to circumvent attacks that you would not allow yourself to perform) is not enough to counter what less moral / ethical opponent would do..
so it would seem impossible for anyone not using unethical/unmoral tactics/strategy to lead proficiently?


I don't think it necessarily takes someone who is morally void to lead but if they are going to stick to high moral principles they need to be fortunate in their circumstances. By abandoning moral guidance one is more likely to succeed in their ambitions although its not a strict prerequisite.

Also if you are going to use unethical means you need to be careful to hide them. Machiavelli empathizes the importance of maintaining the appearance of virtue. While you may be morally void you must understand morality and most of your actions will be morally sound. Unethical behavior can be really effective but can have unforeseen consequences and should be kept to a minimum and used only for important matters.

On December 14 2015 04:12 Glowsphere wrote:
Show nested quote +
Saying that you don't want plebiscites because you think that the people are too dumb to make meaningful decisions (loose quote from a German parliament president) is despicable in the way that it clearly goes against the democratic idea, it's morally despicable, it's clearly the statement that freedom is bad for the average person.


I don't know why that is so despicable. We wouldn't want to have everyone piloting a ship or driving a car at the same time. Similarly if we want a bridge built or disease treated, someone with expertise should be in charge. This doesn't mean "freedom is bad"... in fact, I think rule by a bunch of idiots is a worse tyranny than that of a mediocre ruler. In any society, freedom can never be unlimited, because our wants and desires will always conflict with someone else's. I think a competent, benevolent ruler can maximize freedom for the average person better than equally diffused power.


Even though not everyone may be able to pilot a ship, people can generally judge who's a good pilot and who isn't. Where as the perfect ruler may be able to do a better job in a monarchy than a democracy an imperfect ruler can do so much harm its not worth the risk. Limiting the power of any one person may prevent the "best" government but it also limits the "worse" government. Since a bad government is way worse than a good government is beneficial I think its a good idea to limit the power.

I think plebiscites are fine for minor by-laws and what not, but not for serious issues since the masses are swayed easily by good speakers and ad campaigns rather easily and they can't be expected to know and come up with a good decision when they are busy with their lives compared to someone who focuses just on political matters.
http://awesomedrifter.com/
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
December 19 2015 10:14 GMT
#23
"Hiding it"
v
Was my point. I am not too sure that in 2016 leaders want/have/should hide it that much.
Take my country for instance (frogland), it builds weapons of mass destruction while telling other people it isn't fine to do the same. It keeps whole populations in poverty and suffering to buy precious metals on "their" soil, etc etc!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating being morally reprehensible, just mentioning that "looking tough" not being "gun shy" etc gets massive amounts of votes.
Sad state of affairs really.
"not enough rights"
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8h 12m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 244
StarCraft: Brood War
HiyA 48
NaDa 46
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1391
Counter-Strike
fl0m2408
flusha394
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1201
Mew2King280
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor202
Other Games
tarik_tv21528
gofns12044
summit1g8974
Grubby3172
JimRising 659
shahzam443
ViBE163
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1883
BasetradeTV28
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 40
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 61
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
FEL
8h 12m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
13h 12m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
17h 12m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.