• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 23:11
CET 05:11
KST 13:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice6Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza1Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0258
StarCraft 2
General
Vitality disbanding their sc2-team How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare
Brood War
General
BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10 battle.net problems Are you ready for ASL 21? Hype VIDEO BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash's ASL S21 & Future Plans Announcement
Tourneys
ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BWCL Season 64 Announcement [BSL22] Open Qualifier #1 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
No Man's Sky (PS4 and PC) Path of Exile PC Games Sales Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Mexico's Drug War Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Gaming-Related Deaths
TrAiDoS
ONE GREAT AMERICAN MARINE…
XenOsky
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1305 users

Machiavelli's Legacy - Page 2

Blogs > Awesomedrifter
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-15 10:00:38
December 15 2015 09:51 GMT
#21
I am not so sure that political leaders suffer all that much in the polls from being known as ruthless, not unlike in "the prince", if your "subjects" don't fear "enough" you they will not follow you, if you disgust them possibly it impairs a little for sure .. but we still often vote for the lesser of two evils.. not for someone we would want/cherish/trust.. because those "perfect" people we would wish do not exist .. us being all unique makes us all the same.

I would further argue that PR in political cabinets is kind of like blizz PR (marketing "tip toeing" facts unto people).. they don't know what to do and ruthlessness and even more "go kill yourself" stance will become more and more accepted/standard!

I maybe need remind the young people that if you want to change the world.. you will die doing it.. look up all the dead before their time.. they were honorable or not, moral or not, but by trying to change some people in their lifetime, long after their seeming demise (not unlike fricking ded jedis that keep poking u on the shoulder for eternity "more powerful than you will ever imagine" says wise obi wan!) they remain potent existent concept figures that make their way in the most entropic of ways.
Truth remains truth whether people want to or not and in this war of the "costume" any conception of "etiquete" or righteousness is lost before it ever began from anyone anywhere (everyone kills someone everyday type of deal).

The real issue is that good people are also lazy and do not want to sacrifice their lives for some abstract someone else.. generally speaking we wish we are good and always fall short.. at least some try. but in all fairness in 2015, when you know your head of state (whatever the country) deals with killers and lets them kill, or attack/enslave defenseless people (like to get material to make cell phones) and that it has been the "norm/standard" for "head of states" going on back well over the creation of "nations" (not much more than 1000 years ago), how in all logic can we not be disillusioned and eager to leave it to others to face the durtee that allows for many of us to be lazy comfortable sofa eating chips and p00ping in silk.
Sowy for rant :/
"not enough rights"
Awesomedrifter
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada62 Posts
December 16 2015 16:03 GMT
#22
On December 14 2015 23:29 fluidrone wrote:
Dictate happiness!
I was laughing out loud when the paradox (multitude may not be as efficient as the unique) dawned on me.

We have alpha types that want power.. what they do with it is often ingrained in their culture/past/etc but nothing makes them inherently bad for wanting that power, nor for gaining it.

The real zest of the question (for me) has always been:
does it take alphas being morally void to get to lead? Is it incidental or vital in the process?
My readings would say yes, which is kind of dark.

Knowing what you could do (to circumvent attacks that you would not allow yourself to perform) is not enough to counter what less moral / ethical opponent would do..
so it would seem impossible for anyone not using unethical/unmoral tactics/strategy to lead proficiently?


I don't think it necessarily takes someone who is morally void to lead but if they are going to stick to high moral principles they need to be fortunate in their circumstances. By abandoning moral guidance one is more likely to succeed in their ambitions although its not a strict prerequisite.

Also if you are going to use unethical means you need to be careful to hide them. Machiavelli empathizes the importance of maintaining the appearance of virtue. While you may be morally void you must understand morality and most of your actions will be morally sound. Unethical behavior can be really effective but can have unforeseen consequences and should be kept to a minimum and used only for important matters.

On December 14 2015 04:12 Glowsphere wrote:
Show nested quote +
Saying that you don't want plebiscites because you think that the people are too dumb to make meaningful decisions (loose quote from a German parliament president) is despicable in the way that it clearly goes against the democratic idea, it's morally despicable, it's clearly the statement that freedom is bad for the average person.


I don't know why that is so despicable. We wouldn't want to have everyone piloting a ship or driving a car at the same time. Similarly if we want a bridge built or disease treated, someone with expertise should be in charge. This doesn't mean "freedom is bad"... in fact, I think rule by a bunch of idiots is a worse tyranny than that of a mediocre ruler. In any society, freedom can never be unlimited, because our wants and desires will always conflict with someone else's. I think a competent, benevolent ruler can maximize freedom for the average person better than equally diffused power.


Even though not everyone may be able to pilot a ship, people can generally judge who's a good pilot and who isn't. Where as the perfect ruler may be able to do a better job in a monarchy than a democracy an imperfect ruler can do so much harm its not worth the risk. Limiting the power of any one person may prevent the "best" government but it also limits the "worse" government. Since a bad government is way worse than a good government is beneficial I think its a good idea to limit the power.

I think plebiscites are fine for minor by-laws and what not, but not for serious issues since the masses are swayed easily by good speakers and ad campaigns rather easily and they can't be expected to know and come up with a good decision when they are busy with their lives compared to someone who focuses just on political matters.
http://awesomedrifter.com/
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
December 19 2015 10:14 GMT
#23
"Hiding it"
v
Was my point. I am not too sure that in 2016 leaders want/have/should hide it that much.
Take my country for instance (frogland), it builds weapons of mass destruction while telling other people it isn't fine to do the same. It keeps whole populations in poverty and suffering to buy precious metals on "their" soil, etc etc!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating being morally reprehensible, just mentioning that "looking tough" not being "gun shy" etc gets massive amounts of votes.
Sad state of affairs really.
"not enough rights"
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
LiuLi Cup Grand Finals Playoff
LiquipediaDiscussion
Patches Events
23:00
Open cup capped at 5400 MMR
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft594
RuFF_SC2 223
ProTech127
Nina 117
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 8380
Bisu 8021
NaDa 38
Icarus 3
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm87
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 710
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox633
Mew2King72
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor127
Other Games
summit1g9661
C9.Mang0277
ViBE58
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 1253
UltimateBattle 98
Other Games
BasetradeTV94
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 229
• davetesta167
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 20
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5680
Other Games
• Scarra995
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5h 49m
RSL Revival
5h 49m
Classic vs TriGGeR
Cure vs Cham
WardiTV Winter Champion…
7h 49m
OSC
8h 19m
BSL
15h 49m
Replay Cast
19h 49m
Replay Cast
1d 4h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 12h
OSC
1d 19h
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #1
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
NationLESS Cup
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.