• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
TeamLiquid Liquipedia LiquidDota LiquidLegends
EDT 05:22
CEST 11:22
KST 18:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
WTL 2022 Summer - Week 2 Recap & Week 3 Preview8Rogue wins 4th GSL Code S Championship52Road to CCL S4: A World without Drafts1WTL 2022 Summer - Week 1 Recap & Week 2 Preview11Code S Season 1 Finals: Creator vs Rogue Preview32
Community News
DHM Valencia: Regionals Group Draw4Elazer Joins Team Liquid38[BSL15] Asia Championship - 16 - 22 May on Trovo0ESL Open #122: ByuN, Clem, Cure win1[BSL15] RO16 Groups, Maps, Schedule and more!9
StarCraft 2
General
Rogue wins 4th GSL Code S Championship Elazer Joins Team Liquid What balance / design changes do you want to see? Why you should boycott the GSL WTL 2022 Summer - Week 2 Recap & Week 3 Preview
Tourneys
[WTL 2021] Summer - Week 3 Good Game Cup 23 - Astrea, DRG, Nice, ByuN LTK Invitational Team League [Alpha Pro Series] Astrea vs Cure 2022 ESPOT SC2 Circuit: Summer
Strategy
What is the math on 17 nexus vs 20 nexus? Calling out PiG and Winter [G] PvZ: Nexus First into Dark Templar Drop [G] PvZ Cheese: +1 Zealot Dance Party
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Altitude StarLance | Extension Mod – Multiplayer LotV
External Content
Mutation # 317 Price of Progress Mutation # 316 Fright nigh Mutation # 315 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 314 Wheel of Misfortune:Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
New SC documentary Some StarCraft Player Rankings Statistics $300/month StarCraft Hack The Sziky Stream Thread! BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[BSL15] RO16 Groups, Maps, Schedule and more! Asia Championship forecast [BSL15] Asia Championship - 16 - 22 May on Trovo BWCL season 56: preview and registration
Strategy
Add 1 medic per base vs storm drops TvT: Wraiths or Battlecruisers? Why recall is not used on tanks? TvP Rush vs Best and vulture harassment.
Other Games
Heroes of the Storm
HotS: WP and Funny Moments Road to CCL S4: A World without Drafts Road to CCL S4: Meeting the New Rosters META Madness 6: Where Heroes are Made
General Games
Path of Exile Total War: Warhammer III The XBox Thread Diablo 2 thread Ouya: New gaming console
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Chezinu streak(s) Mafia
Hearthstone
Introduce yourself!
LoL General
LoL Tournaments
LoL Strategy
Community
General
Click speed! Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The Creator Fan Club Zest Fan Club The Moon Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Series you have seen recently... [TV] HBO Game of Thrones Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2021 - 2022 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story NBA General Discussion 2021 NFL/CFB Season Formula 1 Discussion
Tech Support
The Ultimate Mouse Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Getting Back to it..!.20 years…
FuDDx
Computer tinkering and …
Starlightsun
Age
AmericanUmlaut
Is Team Liquid a light blue …
aisight
PCT Highlights: Lakes & Northe…
Tak3r
Mapmaking notes #4
depressed1
International Associatio…
Arghmyliver
Holy shit.
Unforgiven_ve
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1063 users

Pankration - The Art of ZvZ; Part 1

Blogs > Ej_
Post a Reply
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47288 Posts
November 06 2015 19:21 GMT
#1
For the last 5 years, ZvZ in Starcraft 2 has been by many considered the worst, or at least the most boring, match up in the game. Going from the 1 base ling/bane to infestor/BL, then mass mutalisk wars and then the endless roach wars, certainly it has never appealed that much to an average viewer.
However, if we try to delve in, beneath the 9 pools, the speedling all-ins, and all the roaches, we will see the true nature of Zerg versus Zerg. A knife fight, a merciless game where players are constantly on their toes. Where every pair of lings, every drone, every larva matters. A game where one small mistake could lead to one's immediate elimination. And yet, a game where everyone plans 2 steps ahead.
And that is the nature of pankration, a fight of 2 men using all of their force.

[image loading]

And as HotS is nearing its end, with only Blizzcon top8 being left, it seems to be the perfect time to pay a tribute to the matchup.

This blog series is going to both celebreate the beauty of the match up and my breaking of 20k posts and conclude with a HotS ZvZ Power rank.


THE OPENING

+ Show Spoiler [15 hatchery] +

15hatch
can be followed by:
-pool/gas
-gas/pool
-pool; gasless
-pool with later gas

Pros:
-strong economy
-faster creep at natural
-faster queen production

Cons:
-prone to early pools:
-9pool will at least force you to cancel your natural expansion
-6 and 8pool can kill you (depends on your pool timing and worker control)
-10pool bane becomes a real threat if you can't micro at all
-later zerglings mean later scout on 3 and 4 player maps

With the advantages of 15hatchery significantly outweighing the downsides, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that this build is the favorite of progamers. In hands of a good player, 15hatch becomes safe vs every build, only really being at a disadvantage against well executed 9 and 10pools.
Faster queen production and earlier creep at natural offer a good set up for gasless play styles that relly on early queens and wall offs to defend.
While you sometimes want the safety of pool first (especially on 3 and 4 player maps where you can't always scout enemy rush with OL), 15hatchery has become the golden standard of high level ZvZ and for a good reason.

+ Show Spoiler [15 pool] +

15pool
can be followed by
-hatchery/gas
-gas/hatchery
-hatchery; gasless
-hatchery with later gas

Pros:
-a build order win vs any kind of early pool
-faster scout
-able to deny OL scout with early queen

Cons:
-slow economy if you didn't opt for gasless
-later creep at natural
-late 2nd queen

Ah, the always so scared brother of 15hatch. 15pool is another bread&butter build in ZvZ, but a bit less popular amongst Korean. However, pool first is still perfectly to play at any level below the top. It sees a lot more popularity amongst foreigners (notably Nerchio, who very very rarely deviates from 15pool and is one of the best ZvZ players outside Korea) and while behind 15hatch in early game, you just need a single good exchange to even the things out and the better player should have no problem at all winning the game after opening 15pool even vs the greedier versions of hatchery first.
IMHO, the biggest setback of going 15pool vs 15hatch is losing the initiative after your first 2 lings, since the 15hatch player will have his larva production kick in earlier.

+ Show Spoiler [Early pools] +

Early pools in ZvZ are aimed to keep a couple things in check:
-greedy hatchery first openings
-lazy overlord scouting patterns

Now, to go to the actual early pools, there's a few of these:

9pool:
good versus: 15hatch, 8pool, 7pool, 6pool
bad versus: 15pool, 14/14, 13/12, 10pool speed, 10pool bane

The goal of 9pool is to punish a 15hatchery opening, the 9pooler will try to either go for the drones or the hatchery of their opponent and give himself a lead through an ultimately earlier expansion (after the cancel) or more workers (after the attack). 9pool is not destined to end the game, but rather secure an advantage over hatchery first.
If 9pool meets any pool timing between 15pool and 10pool, it's kind of a build order loss, sorry.

8pool:
good versus: 15hatch, 7pool, 6pool
bad versus: 15pool, 14/14, 13/12, 10pool speed, 10pool bane, 9pool

It's kinda like 9pool, you hope for a hatch first. With 8pool, you will be looking for a locked kill with your lings, not a lead. 8pool will very often also feature a drone to spine rush opponent''s main base outside of his vision on creep.

10pool bane:
good versus: literally nothing, Tasteless (actually good vs all other early pools and 10pool speed)
bad versus: 15pool, 14/14, 13/13, properly executed 15hatch
A build that is nowadays considered outdated at the pro level, instead of going for an earlier pool or economic followup, you just make banes and try to nuke all of opponents drones.
Isn't considered viable since Leenock showed us how 15hatch can destroy 10pool bane with good drone micro. A notable player who keeps falling for 10pool bane is Life (Watch Dark vs Life from Kespa Cup). Still a rather good build on amateur level.
10pool bane also fares very well vs other early pools because of being able to morph defensive banelings

10pool and 10pool expand
good versus: bad players
bad versus: everyone else
nowadays more of a curiosity than an actual build, but it can be done in ZvZ and is worth mentioning.
the 10pool expand build goes like this: 10pool, double extractor trick, 12overlord, 6 lings, then drones
10pool is like 9pool, you aim to cancel the natural/cripple and macro behind it. On pro level, 10pools are very easily defendable with hatchery first so they have been retired. Still work on ladder, because people don't know the timings of early pools that well. Especially 10pool expand that can throw off even 15pool, as people won't notice the subtle differences in ling timings and will overestimate their economic lead

6pool and 7pool
good versus: bad overlord scouting paths
bad versus: literally every build that isn't hatchery first

6pool sucks, 7pool is even worse. We've seen I think 2(?) 6pools in high level ZvZ. This build is simply meant to abuse a playing going hatchery first who you know won't scout your early drone/lings with OL and just die when the lings arrive and you have a spine in their base. Like in this game. Jaedong 6pools because 1st ovie on Newkirk is sent not across the map, but across the dead space. He wins.

+ Show Spoiler [1 base all-ins] +

These builds aren't really early pools, but they still mostly rely on the element of surprise to take full effect. Very often used on 3 and 4player maps where your initial overlords aren't guaranteed to scout your opponent on the first try.

14/14
14gas 14pool, speedling all-in. Almost non-existant at high level. You just kind of make lings with this one, sometimes fake an expansion (Miniraser beat Snute with a build like this) and then go for the throat, hoping to abuse lackluster defence or subpar micro of your opponent.

13/12
13gas 12pool, speedling/baneling all-in. Created by Life himself, this build was designed for 4p maps. By the time your opponent can scout you (provided he didn't just scout you 1st with his overlord, then you lose the coinflip and lose, sorry), you have lings ready to deny scouting any scouting. If you succeed at it, you can just straight up kill anyone who even very slightly underprepares for the incoming attack.
Now as the pros have learned how to play vs this, the build has been retired, but is still very good for the ladder

10pool speed
Ok this one is both an early pool and 1 base speedling all-in.
You can execute it both ways:
-you send first lings to your opponent's base, cause some havoc, disrupt his build, then you catch him off-guard with a swell of speedlings and he dies
-you don't send your first lings to harass, just keep pooling units until speed is nearing completion, then leave your base to attack and (with a bit of scouting luck) he sees you at the last possible moments, has nothing and dies. Here's Jaedong doing this variant to sucker punch Hydra (who scouts it and still loses).


And when the dust settles, both parties have their defenses set up, the cheeses are done, this is where ZvZ enters early game and the madness just begins...




*****
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52745 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-06 19:24:07
November 06 2015 19:22 GMT
#2
What if I open 14/14 and then take two hidden bases?
I guess that's a less effective strategy than pool/hatch/hidden hatch, never mind. Good start
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 38m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ViBE303
OGKoka 179
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 23221
Leta 4516
Larva 880
Rush 805
Mong 297
HiyA 132
MisO 95
Dewaltoss 78
Killer 58
Jumperer 13
[ Show more ]
ajuk12(nOOB) 5
Other Games
DeMusliM781
WinterStarcraft700
crisheroes378
Livibee228
Hui .148
ROOTCatZ32
PainUser4
Organizations
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
PGL4895
ESL CS:GO1114
StarCraft 2
OGamingTV SC2 32
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Dystopia_ 5
• Kozan
• Poblha
• aXEnki
• intothetv
• Gussbus
• Alpha X_
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamez Trovo
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• sscaitournament1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
Upcoming Events
GoodGame Cup
2h 38m
Nice vs soO
Astrea vs ByuN
ESL Pro Tour
6h 38m
ESL Pro Tour
13h 38m
Deathfate Pro Team League
1d 15h
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
2 days
Deathfate Pro Team League
2 days
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
4 days
ESL Pro Tour
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Focus Battle 5 : Fengzi&JeDi vs nOOB
2022 GSL S1: Code S
Heroes Rise: Contender Series 3
BLAST Spr. Showdown AME

Ongoing

RCG 2021
CWCL Season 4
Deathfate Pro Team League
HoneyCai Friendlies Season4
FS Mania
CSCL: Masked Kings
CSL season 5 Late Spring Cup
BSL Season 15 LA
WTL 2022 Summer
Championship of Russia 2022
Community Clash League S4
Masters Clash Champ. 2022
ESL Challenger League S41 NA
ESL Challenger League S41 EU
ESL Challenger League S41 APAC
Pinnacle Cup IV
PGL Major Antwerp 2022

Upcoming

BSL Season 15
BSL Season 15 EU
BSL Season 15 NA
DH Masters Valencia
StarCraft II: NationWars 7
2022 GSL S2: Code S
DHM Valencia: CN
DHM Valencia: NA
DHM Valencia: EU
DHM Valencia: LA
DHM Valencia: OC
DHM Valencia: TW
IEM Cologne 2022
ESL Challenger Valencia 2022
EPL Conference Season 16
BLAST Premier Spring Finals
Pinnacle Cup Championship
ESL Impact League S1 Finals
IEM Dallas 2022
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2022 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.