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9070 Posts
So I've finally decided to man up and calibrate my mmr. I play support exclusively and I feel confidant that with correct play supports can tip the scales of battle to victory. For my calibration games I decided to play WW, she has a high impact ultimate a heal and a flash farm ability. My winrate this month on the hero was about 70% over 50 games. In my unranked I constantly get matched with 4k to 5k players and from 100 odd matches in the past month 80 were in the very high skill bracket and 20 in the high skill bracket. So long story short my calibration matches were all around 3.1k, half of them in the normal skill bracket. A bracket I had no matches in for more than a year. Naturally I went 5-5 and my calibration was about 3100. The games were absolutely terrible, but I think I tried my hardest in all of them, you can see the dotabuff info here:
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/131465760/matches
Now, this ain't gonna be one of the salty blogs 'whys my MMR so low, I don't belong there' cause obviously with my hero picks and play I wasn't able to influence the game positively. Whatever metrics like support play, team healing, KDA or even hero pick didn't really matter. What I'm seriously surprised is why the game decided to throw me in that skill bracket for all my games, considering my unranked matches have been consistently in higher brackets. One of the reasons that came to mind is party MMR which I calibrated pretty much one game a month starting a year ago. Even so all my calibration games were in the high bracket so I dont know. Anyone else had experience with calibrating only playing support? I just feel that nothing I did could've changed the games aside from playing cores and probably raping shit.
So tl;dr: I played support WW, went 5-5, half my games were in a bracket I had no matches in for more than a year. The game didn't really gave me a 'chance' and all players in my matches were in the same bracket.
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You play WW after patch 6.85! You should have done it before!
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Limited hero pool. Bad builds. Why trying carry items on ww? Buy more wards. Stack more camps. Aura items effects has more stats in calibration. I wish you luck..
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9070 Posts
On September 29 2015 03:49 SataNiCKniFe wrote:
Limited hero pool. Bad builds. Why trying carry items on ww? Buy more wards. Stack more camps. Aura items effects has more stats in calibration. I wish you luck..
Thanks for the reply. My last limited hero pool match was from april 2014, not sure if that should have any implications now.I always buy all support items for my team, thats why I played ww for calibration, you get a lot of kills gold cause of the ulti and level 7 onwards farming is really fast.
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I believe he is saying your hero pool is small, not that you play limited hero mode. That said, I'm pretty sure items like bloodstone are not the build for a support (especially after 6.85) when things like glimmer cape and solar crest exist.
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I also play support only and calibrated around your level when I first started ranked games. But tbh I wouldnt expect a better MMR when u still play in high ranked games. I am only playing very high and also am just at 4k. So when still playing high u should naturally be lower. I am not trying to be a prick, I just want to show that you are probably not calibrated too low.
I know your feeling of not being able to influence the game enough. I often had the same feeling. Especially since I hate losing gold in the picking screen and everyone waits till last pick... So i rarely am able to counterpick as a support.
That's why I am trying to play all-around supports like wd, dazzle or even ww.
When playing as support in these ranked pubs I found that the most important change I made was talking, I am not good at dota or dota theory or even at all those little intricacies and hero matchups and whatever. I have simple principles like "try to (smoke)gank their carry with your offlaner", "try to take rosh asap" and "won a fight - get towers". Thats all my dota knowledge. And I am just hammering these into my pubs by using voice. Since I am doing that I got way better games and a way better winrate.
The next thing I had to learn (and I am still doing it badly) was not to get behind in farm/levels too much. As a support in pubs u are usually solo supporting. So it is hard to get up that glimmer or even a shiny aghs. But whenever there is an empty lane I grab it and farm it. It is so easy to be lvl 5 at 13 minutes and just have no impact. Even one or two kills on the offlaner are (in my eperience) less helpful than farming that 1 minute on mid while your mid is ganking offlane or shit.
SInce doing these things I feel a very real impact since I am thinking more about how the game is going and what should be done. I am the one organizing the smoke gangs, the pushes, ad so on. It's amazing how much of difference you can make. I even have the feeling now, that I am the main reason we win the game. Not because of my great KDA or smth, my mechanics are way too bad for that. Just by forcing people to follow my principles. It was a hard step to talk and it felt really strange at first, since people are not answering you most of the time. But it is REALLY rewarding.
And one hero i love in the current pub meta is disruptor. He rapes all these antimages and low hp mids.
ye well that's about it. I hope my experiences are helpful 
edit: you really are building strange items. Why would you ever go s&y on ww? I have about 6 items I build on the most support heroes: blink, glimmer, solar, force, aghs and mek/greaves.
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Calibration works like Bottom-Up: You start in the so called "elo hell", and go up if you play above the average of the corresponding bracket. This process repeats until you reach the mmr cap or stagnates when you perform on an average level/poorly according to the bracket you were currently matched with.
I believe that good kdas/winrates/gpm/expm in your normal games only influence the starting point by a bit.
hope that helps explaining what happened in your case.
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I think if I went 5-5 with any hero I would expect to be 3100, and it shouldnt be hard to win at least 7-8 with WW as a support if you play right. Either way in 3k I would recommend playing a core if you want to climb through it fast. Ler will probably disagree with me 
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damn i didnt know disciple played the dotes
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If you want to buy a big money item on a support, Bloodstone and Octarine Core are both terrible ideas most of the time. They don't really do anything to help your team and offer very little benefit to yourself.
Agh's or Refresher are much better (depending on the hero), and frequently some combination of 2 of mek/blink/euls/force/glimmer/solar crest is much better (depending on the hero).
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On September 29 2015 08:40 gaijindash wrote:I think if I went 5-5 with any hero I would expect to be 3100, and it shouldnt be hard to win at least 7-8 with WW as a support if you play right. Either way in 3k I would recommend playing a core if you want to climb through it fast. Ler will probably disagree with me
that's not how calibration works, it really depends on your unranked mmr before you start calibrating
you can go 10-0 and end up in 2k or go 0-10 and end up in 4k, both have happened
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i understand how you feel
back when ranked first came out and people had no idea what determined calibration, i played support for 10 games too. (when i played in a team at competitive level i play support)
i went like 3-7 or something, give or take a win, and i calibrated to like low 4k and i never touched ranked again rofl.
unfortunately theres no explanation for this, except that mmr is a disgraceful indication of skill/team input etc etc
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During my calibration I played exclusively captain's mode, never got captain, always first picked the support, and went 8-2. Honestly if you're good at support, it doesn't really matter what hero you play. Some are obviously harder than others, but support is all about big picture stuff, calling rotations and setting up ganks, getting map control with wards and sentries. Hero abilities are mostly secondary to this core stuff. WW is a great support, but I would only prefer it against lineups with 3 melee or with a hero like antimage where you need a hard lockdown spell. Playing support should be all about flexibility. Map control, stacking camps, and counter ganking will be 50% of your game no matter what hero you play.
Long story short: different lineups require different things. Some lineups would be over the top with a dazzle that just casts his ult before every team fight. Some lineups require a hard lockdown like from a WW. Some lineups require good team fight from their support early so they can survive till late game, in the form of earthshaker or witch doctor. Diversify your picks based on lineups and you will increase your MMR.
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if u bought a dagon 3 with ur bloodstone gold it would literally be more useful
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High skill is a bit above 3k. Just wanted to insert that into the discussion. At least it is based on the information I have read. Very high is probably around 3.5-4k somewhere. So seems you calibrated around the level you are playing at, system working as expected?
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On September 29 2015 15:36 Yurie wrote:
High skill is a bit above 3k. Just wanted to insert that into the discussion. At least it is based on the information I have read. Very high is probably around 3.5-4k somewhere. So seems you calibrated around the level you are playing at, system working as expected?
He said he played at very high all the time, so i guess he should be at the top end of 3k not the bottom.
Anyways I can only say what I always say: It ALWAYS feels like you couldn't have done more when you lose in DotA. Its the way most of our minds work. You did everything as you think you should have done it. The others didnt. Doesn't mean the others played worse.
On the other hand whenever i play unranked the skill level feels WAY lower than in my ranked games, so maybe it's that people care more about winning in ranked matches than in unranked ones and if you really try to win in unranked matches you get a high win % because the others don't care enoguh for winning / trying new stuff / have fun with funky stuff.
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40wins is 1k mmr, thats fairly easy to grind when you're better than everyone else
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I know by first hand, Very high-high bracket line is about 3500-3600. If you play in both brackets you are expected to be around 3600 at max. You'll not play in high bracket after 3700 or so, all considered solo.
You cannot be matched with 4.5k-5k players if you see a recent high skill game in your history, unless you are in a party.
Playing support, 5-5 with not good stats and I assume valve also tanks it a little bit then you end up with 3.1k. If you are 4k+ material, you can climb very easily with proper picks and execution.
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9070 Posts
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all.
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well no one knows exactly how calibration works besides valve people. i dont think youre going to get a definite answer here
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On September 29 2015 19:45 disciple wrote:
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all.
I don't really understand what you expected, end up with 3100 and complain. I don't know what 500th best venge player on earth(I assume dotabuff rankings) and how it is even possible by playing recent "high bracket" games in your history. Simply you cannot be best 500 with a hero from high bracket at all.
At best you'd be calibrated 3600-3800 band maybe slightly higher but you lost half of the calibration matches. I also assume valve try to be a little pessimistic considering you can abuse FOTM heroes to have a higher win rate so in order to avoid MMR inflation, they may tank a little bit.
All in theory but staying 400-500 MMR away from your "actual MMR" is perfectly normal and I wouldn't count it as a mis calibration at all.
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9070 Posts
On September 29 2015 19:56 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 19:45 disciple wrote:
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all. I don't really understand what you expected, end up with 3100 and complain. I don't know what 500th best venge player on earth(I assume dotabuff rankings) and how it is even possible by playing recent "high bracket" games in your history. Simply you cannot be best 500 with a hero from high bracket at all. At best you'd be calibrated 3600-3800 band maybe slightly higher but you lost half of the calibration matches. I also assume valve try to be a little pessimistic considering you can abuse FOTM heroes to have a higher win rate so in order to avoid MMR inflation, they may tank a little bit. All in theory but staying 400-500 MMR away from your "actual MMR" is perfectly normal and I wouldn't count it as a mis calibration at all.
Its not about miscalibration, the blog was about calibrating as a support. It will probably shock you but the skill of your team mates does matter when you play a support. I complain about being matched with players that made supporting harder and given my poor item choices you can still check in the match history that I was outfarming my cores. It was just an incredibly frustrating experience throughout. And I don't know how I got ranked top whatever with venge I just play a shit tone of games with it and win a lot, I dont think theres another way.
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I think there is a strong consensus on playing cores are better in terms of game impact and overall MMR gain, maybe except a few(Ler).
I agree mostly and somewhat validated if you look at the top 100 of every region with mostly consist of either core players or pros. I give more credit to 5500 MMR full time support player rather than a 5500 MMR fotm abuser.
I don't believe calibration take into account what hero do you play and try to match it according. They particularly changed the total damage parameter a while ago since people started to abuse zeus ulti all game long.
But it might be that Valve look at a variety of parameters and some of them cannot be achieved as "good" by playing support(I mean simply not prioritize farming and/or playing with farm independent heroes, buy consumables etc..).
Also I strongly think that losing a game, independent of your parameters is a huge negative in calibration matches.
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On September 29 2015 20:48 Laserist wrote:
I think there is a strong consensus on playing cores are better in terms of game impact and overall MMR gain, maybe except a few(Ler).
I agree mostly and somewhat validated if you look at the top 100 of every region with mostly consist of either core players or pros. I give more credit to 5500 MMR full time support player rather than a 5500 MMR fotm abuser.
I don't believe calibration take into account what hero do you play and try to match it according. They particularly changed the total damage parameter a while ago since people started to abuse zeus ulti all game long.
But it might be that Valve look at a variety of parameters and some of them cannot be achieved as "good" by playing support(I mean simply not prioritize farming and/or playing with farm independent heroes, buy consumables etc..).
Also I strongly think that losing a game, independent of your parameters is a huge negative in calibration matches.
In low ratings I'd say there is no difference between core/support, because although you may not want to admit it, you are all equal skill levels. It's when you get to like 5.7kish when you get games where you are 1k mmr over some people that the core position becomes more important.
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On September 29 2015 19:45 disciple wrote:
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all.
First thing you need to understand: Calibration is not about winning your game. Its about the general impact you have compared to all players in a certain bracket which will then increase your hidden mmr.
An example:
So lets assume you play anti-mage and have 150 cs by minute 30 and 0 hero damage done because you were farming, but 1k tower damage because you were split pushing. Game ends around that mark because your team carried it anyway 4 vs 5.
=> Game won.
=> Game impact = literally zero .
=> Literally zero hidden MMR gained.
=> Next game will be most likely in the same bracket or a bit higher due to you winning.
Lets assume you played the anti-mage game with 300cs by minute 30, 10-0-5 stats, and 15k hero damage and the game ends around that mark but your team threw the game. The MM algorithm will still see that you performed stellar compared to all other players.
=> Game lost.
=> Game impact = Very high.
=> Enormous hidden MMR gained.
=> Next game will be in a much higher bracket compared to the previous one.
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On September 30 2015 02:24 Ler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 19:45 disciple wrote:
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all. First thing you need to understand: Calibration is not about winning your game. Its about the general impact you have compared to all players in a certain bracket which will then increase your hidden mmr. An example: So lets assume you play anti-mage and have 150 cs by minute 30 and 0 hero damage done because you were farming, but 1k tower damage because you were split pushing. Game ends around that mark because your team carried it anyway 4 vs 5. => Game won. => Game impact = literally zero . => Literally zero hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be most likely in the same bracket or a bit higher due to you winning. Lets assume you played the anti-mage game with 300cs by minute 30, 10-0-5 stats, and 15k hero damage and the game ends around that mark but your team threw the game. The MM algorithm will still see that you performed stellar compared to all other players. => Game lost. => Game impact = Very high. => Enormous hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be in a much higher bracket compared to the previous one.
Any source or pure subjective experience?
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Pure subjective experience, which is why sonneiko is 4k mmr player heheh
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9070 Posts
Well if theres game impact metric for a support my first game of the calibration I went 7-11-19 with 100 LH , 370 GPM, glimmer cape and greaves (I probably healed my team for a shit tone, ww remember) and purchased 15/6 wards and the game was lost. So I'm pretty sure there's no metric that rewards support play during calibration
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The metric that rewards support play is having a high unranked mmr and winning.
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On September 30 2015 02:24 Ler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 19:45 disciple wrote:
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all. First thing you need to understand: Calibration is not about winning your game. Its about the general impact you have compared to all players in a certain bracket which will then increase your hidden mmr. An example: So lets assume you play anti-mage and have 150 cs by minute 30 and 0 hero damage done because you were farming, but 1k tower damage because you were split pushing. Game ends around that mark because your team carried it anyway 4 vs 5. => Game won. => Game impact = literally zero . => Literally zero hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be most likely in the same bracket or a bit higher due to you winning. Lets assume you played the anti-mage game with 300cs by minute 30, 10-0-5 stats, and 15k hero damage and the game ends around that mark but your team threw the game. The MM algorithm will still see that you performed stellar compared to all other players. => Game lost. => Game impact = Very high. => Enormous hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be in a much higher bracket compared to the previous one.
yeah too bad they only determine game impact through things like kda/gpm/xpm/hero + tower dmg etc (all things cores care about)
supports get shafted hard on the 'game impact' scale
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On September 30 2015 08:48 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 02:24 Ler wrote:On September 29 2015 19:45 disciple wrote:
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all. First thing you need to understand: Calibration is not about winning your game. Its about the general impact you have compared to all players in a certain bracket which will then increase your hidden mmr. An example: So lets assume you play anti-mage and have 150 cs by minute 30 and 0 hero damage done because you were farming, but 1k tower damage because you were split pushing. Game ends around that mark because your team carried it anyway 4 vs 5. => Game won. => Game impact = literally zero . => Literally zero hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be most likely in the same bracket or a bit higher due to you winning. Lets assume you played the anti-mage game with 300cs by minute 30, 10-0-5 stats, and 15k hero damage and the game ends around that mark but your team threw the game. The MM algorithm will still see that you performed stellar compared to all other players. => Game lost. => Game impact = Very high. => Enormous hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be in a much higher bracket compared to the previous one. yeah too bad they only determine game impact through things like kda/gpm/xpm/hero + tower dmg etc (all things cores care about) supports get shafted hard on the 'game impact' scale
How do you know this? The fact that they have metrics to judge if your play style is support in the new reborn client leads me to believe it wouldn't be unrealistic for them to use it as d calibration tool as well
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Well I always heard that account boosters spam zeus or spectre or some other global hero in calibration so that they calibrate at max mmr
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reborn is very new. i cant speak for mmr calibration now, but for a very long time after ranked was first released, it was pretty evident to everyone that playing support doesnt do shit to get you a good initial rank.
the zeus thing was also abused for a while, although i heard valve changed it up once to stop people abusing hero damage
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Theres kind of no real way to properly calibrate people for matchmaking, just like MMR is not a strict measure of skill. Not to crap on about it since I already wrote like 7k words on the topic, but MMR is not a measure of skill (ref Day9), its a measure of progress. So how do you properly calibrate a persons instantaneous level of progress at a given time, especially in a game like dota with many variables.
In my opinion if youre calibrating within 1k MMR if where you probably should be then Valve is doing a pretty reasonable job, and if you dont then youre shit out of luck I guess.
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On September 30 2015 13:01 gaijindash wrote:
Well I always heard that account boosters spam zeus or spectre or some other global hero in calibration so that they calibrate at max mmr
It was changed some time ago. You cannot place 4.5k-5k MMR buy just spam zeus ulti all game long.
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On September 30 2015 06:35 disciple wrote:
Well if theres game impact metric for a support my first game of the calibration I went 7-11-19 with 100 LH , 370 GPM, glimmer cape and greaves (I probably healed my team for a shit tone, ww remember) and purchased 15/6 wards and the game was lost. So I'm pretty sure there's no metric that rewards support play during calibration
You honestly think 11 deaths is a good performance?
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On September 30 2015 21:13 schmitty9800 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 06:35 disciple wrote:
Well if theres game impact metric for a support my first game of the calibration I went 7-11-19 with 100 LH , 370 GPM, glimmer cape and greaves (I probably healed my team for a shit tone, ww remember) and purchased 15/6 wards and the game was lost. So I'm pretty sure there's no metric that rewards support play during calibration You honestly think 11 deaths is a good performance?
Depends on the average MMR of the match. If it would be a 6k average match with 5 pros, it would be solid.
This is one of the things we are missing while evaluating the MMR algorithm.
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9070 Posts
On September 30 2015 21:13 schmitty9800 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 06:35 disciple wrote:
Well if theres game impact metric for a support my first game of the calibration I went 7-11-19 with 100 LH , 370 GPM, glimmer cape and greaves (I probably healed my team for a shit tone, ww remember) and purchased 15/6 wards and the game was lost. So I'm pretty sure there's no metric that rewards support play during calibration You honestly think 11 deaths is a good performance?
Well I got the least deaths in the team :D
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1826192545
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On September 30 2015 21:13 schmitty9800 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 06:35 disciple wrote:
Well if theres game impact metric for a support my first game of the calibration I went 7-11-19 with 100 LH , 370 GPM, glimmer cape and greaves (I probably healed my team for a shit tone, ww remember) and purchased 15/6 wards and the game was lost. So I'm pretty sure there's no metric that rewards support play during calibration You honestly think 11 deaths is a good performance?
death count can really say nothing about a support performance (though it can say a lot about the flow of the game itself)
avoiding deaths isnt a big priority on supports at all (not to say avoiding unnecessary feeding isn't, but there is a such thing as necessary feeding, things like tanking smoke ganks, soaking semi-dangerous exp to not stay underleveled, or initiating when your team doesn't have an initiator who will never die)
the only time supports die very few times is in complete stomps anyhow, one way or the other. you could stomp, or your cores get stomped for being suicidal morons and you just soak exp and survive until you get throned
in the particular game mentioned, it's possible (though unlikely) that a support could have played close to 6-7k mmr level and still gotten 11 deaths in a 55 minute game
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I agree better players tend to die less but sacrificing yourself to protect a carry shouldn't be a negative thing and this is why evaluating a support from numbers is a tricky business.
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doublepost stupid quote butotn
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9070 Posts
Well as a support you gotta just go with the flow sometimes if your team wants to constantly 5 man and fight even if its not the right time, you can't really afk farm and do your own thing like lesh or am.
Also to mention is that veno fed for the first 15 minutes or so, we were very far ahead but couldn't win they got a lot of gold veno started trying and we lost. I think from my calibration games probably 7 or 8 I was the only support with a jungler on my team, once the other team got an abandon early on and they rolled us over and that first game with veno feeding rubber band into loss - fun times and I thought in ranked ppl never leave and try hard
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
avoiding deaths as support is really important. you being a poverty support is quite different to you having a force staff or glimmer. big fights do not hinge on the cores, they depend on which side's supports can do that extra bit
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Please stay. We need more supports in the lower brackets :p
But really, people who pick supports and play like one are amazing. If you ever were in my games, ty!
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On September 30 2015 23:08 ahswtini wrote:
avoiding deaths as support is really important. you being a poverty support is quite different to you having a force staff or glimmer. big fights do not hinge on the cores, they depend on which side's supports can do that extra bit
This is true in pro games, in pubs, especially at lower level ones, yeah no.
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On September 30 2015 02:24 Ler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 19:45 disciple wrote:
So I played a couple of ranked games today with venge. Prior to that I was 500th in the world, just by winning two games I dropped to 97%. I still don't understand why the rank calibration had to essentially reset my progress. I know its shouldn't be hard to get back up in a couple of months but I dont understand the logic behind my calibration match ups. So if its bottom up and you lose the first 2 games of the calibration you are screwed? Cause it never got better, I couldve stopped right after my second game and my MMR would've still calibrated at 3100. I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation thats all. First thing you need to understand: Calibration is not about winning your game. Its about the general impact you have compared to all players in a certain bracket which will then increase your hidden mmr. An example: So lets assume you play anti-mage and have 150 cs by minute 30 and 0 hero damage done because you were farming, but 1k tower damage because you were split pushing. Game ends around that mark because your team carried it anyway 4 vs 5. => Game won. => Game impact = literally zero . => Literally zero hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be most likely in the same bracket or a bit higher due to you winning. Lets assume you played the anti-mage game with 300cs by minute 30, 10-0-5 stats, and 15k hero damage and the game ends around that mark but your team threw the game. The MM algorithm will still see that you performed stellar compared to all other players. => Game lost. => Game impact = Very high. => Enormous hidden MMR gained. => Next game will be in a much higher bracket compared to the previous one.
It doesn't work like this at all anymore since months and months back. They changed it to prevent zeus abuse.
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A friend of me who is relatively new to dota done his rating configuration matches after 240 games and was ranked at 1,5k mmr. I am low 4k, and I think his rating is way too low. We play often together, so we probably match against ~3k mmr players, and often his support play as Omniknight, Pugna, or WD plays a major role in our victory, and I've never seen him feed.
I would agree that mmr calibration favors carry players.
Seeing your items and your farm, I have serious doubts that you secure the carryplayers farm and support them enough with the items you can get. Bloodstone and Octarinecore on support WW ? I'ld straight up report you. if you could afford Oct you should get Hex, If you can get Bloodstone, a Forcestaff, Euls, Meka, Glimmer, Shiva, hell even the upp'ed Vanguard, Vlads (pls that item owns), Ghostzepter.. basicly everything is more useful.
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I dont know about hidden MMR but the "visible" MMR is just a messure of winning/loosing issnt it?! I mean it's just a standart ELO rating. You get ~25 points for a win and - ~25 points for a loss. No stats considered at all. How the initial MMR is calculated after the first 10 games is a mystery to me. But in the end you will rise if you play better then avr. and fall if you play worse.
As a former support player who switched to a core role in solo and not-5-man team games I can understand you struggle. It just feels so unfair to when you play good and the core roles suck so you lose. But believe me, when you try to farm and the supports are clueless about what they should do its exactly the same.
Just keep playing, don't get obsessed with the e-penis MMR. More than half of my time playing DotA there weren't anything like MMR at all.
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9070 Posts
On October 02 2015 17:32 unsaeglich wrote:
A friend of me who is relatively new to dota done his rating configuration matches after 240 games and was ranked at 1,5k mmr. I am low 4k, and I think his rating is way too low. We play often together, so we probably match against ~3k mmr players, and often his support play as Omniknight, Pugna, or WD plays a major role in our victory, and I've never seen him feed.
I would agree that mmr calibration favors carry players.
Seeing your items and your farm, I have serious doubts that you secure the carryplayers farm and support them enough with the items you can get. Bloodstone and Octarinecore on support WW ? I'ld straight up report you. if you could afford Oct you should get Hex, If you can get Bloodstone, a Forcestaff, Euls, Meka, Glimmer, Shiva, hell even the upp'ed Vanguard, Vlads (pls that item owns), Ghostzepter.. basicly everything is more useful.
The logic behind the bloodstone is that I go arcanes soul ring blink every game, this is my toolset so Im self sustainable and can initiate with my ulti. Then the progression to bloodstone is what 3k? Its already luxury item by then and I do get it very late so even if got the cheap utility items its still gonna be relatively late. Maybe the problem is not the bloodstone cause I never focus on getting it but getting blink I dont know, I really like it on ww cause her ulti wrecks and positioning is very important with that hero overall. Also I think I lost only one of my calibration games going bloodstone. Here's the list of my pre calibration games with WW:
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/131465760/matches?date=&hero=winter-wyvern&skill_bracket=&lobby_type=normal_matchmaking&game_mode=all_pick®ion=&faction=&duration=&enjoyment=any&timezone=Europe/Berlin
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The cheap utility items are way more useful than a bloodstone even 60 minutes into the game.
You don't need that kind of mana regen as a WW and the extra health is actually gonna be less useful as the game goes on because enemy damage goes up. I would also say that even Soul Ring + Arcane is more than you need.
For 3k gold you could have a force staff/glimmer to save people being initiated on, a ghost scepter to protect yourself from their carry, etc. If you didn't buy Soul Ring every game you could have gotten 2 of them. I also don't think Blink is necessary on this hero, her spells are all quite long range (burn gives 1000 range, splinter blast is 1200, embrace is 1000, ulti is 800), you're dropping 2250g on an item that might help you get a better ult. Force Staff does the same thing (as does Glimmer in a way since you can use it on yourself to get closer to the frontlines) and is far more flexible.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 02 2015 23:52 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 17:32 unsaeglich wrote:
A friend of me who is relatively new to dota done his rating configuration matches after 240 games and was ranked at 1,5k mmr. I am low 4k, and I think his rating is way too low. We play often together, so we probably match against ~3k mmr players, and often his support play as Omniknight, Pugna, or WD plays a major role in our victory, and I've never seen him feed.
I would agree that mmr calibration favors carry players.
Seeing your items and your farm, I have serious doubts that you secure the carryplayers farm and support them enough with the items you can get. Bloodstone and Octarinecore on support WW ? I'ld straight up report you. if you could afford Oct you should get Hex, If you can get Bloodstone, a Forcestaff, Euls, Meka, Glimmer, Shiva, hell even the upp'ed Vanguard, Vlads (pls that item owns), Ghostzepter.. basicly everything is more useful. The logic behind the bloodstone is that I go arcanes soul ring blink every game, this is my toolset so Im self sustainable and can initiate with my ulti. Then the progression to bloodstone is what 3k? Its already luxury item by then and I do get it very late so even if got the cheap utility items its still gonna be relatively late. Maybe the problem is not the bloodstone cause I never focus on getting it but getting blink I dont know, I really like it on ww cause her ulti wrecks and positioning is very important with that hero overall. Also I think I lost only one of my calibration games going bloodstone. Here's the list of my pre calibration games with WW: https://www.dotabuff.com/players/131465760/matches?date=&hero=winter-wyvern&skill_bracket=&lobby_type=normal_matchmaking&game_mode=all_pick®ion=&faction=&duration=&enjoyment=any&timezone=Europe/Berlin
huh tranqs soul ring is enough regen for wyvern, ur investing 3k gold that could be spent on far better items like glimmer and blink. just cuz u buy soul ring doesnt mean u have to build it into a bloodstone.
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
On October 03 2015 05:38 TomatoBisque wrote:
The cheap utility items are way more useful than a bloodstone even 60 minutes into the game.
You don't need that kind of mana regen as a WW and the extra health is actually gonna be less useful as the game goes on because enemy damage goes up. I would also say that even Soul Ring + Arcane is more than you need.
For 3k gold you could have a force staff/glimmer to save people being initiated on, a ghost scepter to protect yourself from their carry, etc. If you didn't buy Soul Ring every game you could have gotten 2 of them. I also don't think Blink is necessary on this hero, her spells are all quite long range (burn gives 1000 range, splinter blast is 1200, embrace is 1000, ulti is 800), you're dropping 2250g on an item that might help you get a better ult. Force Staff does the same thing (as does Glimmer in a way since you can use it on yourself to get closer to the frontlines) and is far more flexible.
I do agree with OP that blink is oftenly very usefull item on WW, i myseld, however, always prefer to get glimmer on her first. You can also sometimes use glimmer to come closer to your enemies, so in a way glimmer could give you some form on initiation. I also dislike straight building into blink after sould ring + tranqs because you need to stockpile a lot of gold during the usually very tense period of game when you can not really disappear to farm for 5 minutes. On a side note: glimmer is a damn imba on WW - 5 seconds of near immunity on like 15 sec CD.
Also, i totally agree on the uselessness of bloodstone/octarine on WW. To me it seems that a lot of people are obsessed with octarine core because it's a new item with a cool spell lifesteal TT. I really think that in any game as a fighting-oriented support you should aim at aura-like items like mek/greaves, pipe, solar crest and vlads (or force staff if you are against clockwerk, for example). If nobody builds any of these items i will be strongly considering them over anything.
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blink wyvern ult is the scariest 5 pos in the game imo. Maybe blink shaker is better but idk
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I would never argue against a blink on any support hero. I also didn't mean to flame you. I like your games where you go forcestaff and euls, those items have a lot of utility, you can cancel tp's without spending your ult, and you or your teammates can get saved by force. Nice!
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in ur 10tbd game dont play no 4 or 5
get at least 2 game doing good at mid
u will pass 4k easily.
MMR is for no 1 and 2 ... this stupid system are there since the 1st day of its released
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3k supports are for the most part godawful
here's how you evaluate supports at low levels:
how many lanes can you win for your team?
If your answer is less than two, then you belong at 2999 mmr and below.
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On October 10 2015 08:26 Det1 wrote:
3k supports are for the most part godawful
here's how you evaluate supports at low levels:
how many lanes can you win for your team?
If your answer is less than two, then you belong at 2999 mmr and below.
wtf?
this is the most nonsense evaluation of a support player ive ever seen. youre probably a 3100mmr player who rages at all his supports because "they dont win 2 of your lanes" for you
honestly i dont how youre expecting a support wisp or a support sand king to consistently win 2 lanes for you every game
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On October 10 2015 15:56 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:26 Det1 wrote:
3k supports are for the most part godawful
here's how you evaluate supports at low levels:
how many lanes can you win for your team?
If your answer is less than two, then you belong at 2999 mmr and below. wtf? this is the most nonsense evaluation of a support player ive ever seen. youre probably a 3100mmr player who rages at all his supports because "they dont win 2 of your lanes" for you honestly i dont how youre expecting a support wisp or a support sand king to consistently win 2 lanes for you every game
Sounds like the counterpart of the other 3k argument
"OMG MID NO GANK NO WIN SIDELANES" GG I FEED.
Lol
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its possible its that calibration gives more mmr in the 3.4k area than in the 3k area which would disadvantage people who lose their first few games. but i doubt that makes sense
also you should try euls it has great mana regen and great setup and great escape and you can bait out shit and move faster iirc. ive never played ww but i know there are a lot of supports that would feel awesome to have a blodstone on (LIKE LION FOR INSTANCE) but i have never made one!!! except yesterday on dazzle coz i am a filthy casual and literally didn't spend my gold for 20 mins coz i got stunned into incapacitation watching my freefarm laning void walk a glove from the main shop then the glove back to base again when it reached him without picking it up w t f. i literally didnt upgrade the courier so i could watch it walk back to him again 10 minutes later, my sides. den i got a bloodstone and we lost like 0-60 it was sik)
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On September 29 2015 02:44 disciple wrote:So I've finally decided to man up and calibrate my mmr. I play support exclusively and I feel confidant that with correct play supports can tip the scales of battle to victory. For my calibration games I decided to play WW, she has a high impact ultimate a heal and a flash farm ability. My winrate this month on the hero was about 70% over 50 games. In my unranked I constantly get matched with 4k to 5k players and from 100 odd matches in the past month 80 were in the very high skill bracket and 20 in the high skill bracket. So long story short my calibration matches were all around 3.1k, half of them in the normal skill bracket. A bracket I had no matches in for more than a year. Naturally I went 5-5 and my calibration was about 3100. The games were absolutely terrible, but I think I tried my hardest in all of them, you can see the dotabuff info here: https://www.dotabuff.com/players/131465760/matchesNow, this ain't gonna be one of the salty blogs 'whys my MMR so low, I don't belong there' cause obviously with my hero picks and play I wasn't able to influence the game positively. Whatever metrics like support play, team healing, KDA or even hero pick didn't really matter. What I'm seriously surprised is why the game decided to throw me in that skill bracket for all my games, considering my unranked matches have been consistently in higher brackets. One of the reasons that came to mind is party MMR which I calibrated pretty much one game a month starting a year ago. Even so all my calibration games were in the high bracket so I dont know. Anyone else had experience with calibrating only playing support? I just feel that nothing I did could've changed the games aside from playing cores and probably raping shit. So tl;dr: I played support WW, went 5-5, half my games were in a bracket I had no matches in for more than a year. The game didn't really gave me a 'chance' and all players in my matches were in the same bracket.
I have the impression that ranked and non-ranked seem to use different mmrs. I can confirm that I get a lot more normal skill bracket games in ranked than non-ranked. I rarely ever play solo ranked and when I do I feel like every one in the game is a freaking retard (natural at low 3k), but to my surprise most people seem to be on average a lot more retarded than me. In two out of three of my ranked games I start snowballing heavily, and I'm usually a defensive farming player on cores who tries to stay away from unnecessary risks, my enemies are just constantly out of position.
Totally different story in non-ranked team which I play most of the time.
Then again my sample size for ranked is very small so it might just be luck.
On October 10 2015 15:56 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:26 Det1 wrote:
3k supports are for the most part godawful
here's how you evaluate supports at low levels:
how many lanes can you win for your team?
If your answer is less than two, then you belong at 2999 mmr and below. wtf? this is the most nonsense evaluation of a support player ive ever seen. youre probably a 3100mmr player who rages at all his supports because "they dont win 2 of your lanes" for you honestly i dont how youre expecting a support wisp or a support sand king to consistently win 2 lanes for you every game
Which is one of the reasons wisp and sk aren't doing to well atm. I dont know how often I've won our mid his lane on heroes like earthshaker.
Then again winning your safe is at 3k way more difficult in these pub dual lanes than winning your mid as support. The number of supports that can win a lane with spectre against dazzle+axe or ud+whomever is just pretty much zero.
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the only reason wisp isnt doing well in pubs (its not atm either, he never does well) is because 90% of players are shit with him. end of story.
they dont understand that wisp relies 100% on positioning and map awareness, and even if they do theyre just not good enough to play him at the required level.
and i dunno about your games but sand king does fine in most pubs. hes not that hard to play nor is he a bad hero
i say this again but how good someone is at support cant be evaluated by how much he dominates his team's lanes during the early stages of the game. saying good supports must win the team at least 1 lane, let alone 2, is ludicrous. there are a lot of games where you could be 3 tier 1 towers down by 20mins and still say the supports did a good job
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On October 12 2015 13:36 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the only reason wisp isnt doing well in pubs (its not atm either, he never does well) is because 90% of players are shit with him. end of story.
they dont understand that wisp relies 100% on positioning and map awareness, and even if they do theyre just not good enough to play him at the required level.
and i dunno about your games but sand king does fine in most pubs. hes not that hard to play nor is he a bad hero
i say this again but how good someone is at support cant be evaluated by how much he dominates his team's lanes during the early stages of the game. saying good supports must win the team at least 1 lane, let alone 2, is ludicrous. there are a lot of games where you could be 3 tier 1 towers down by 20mins and still say the supports did a good job
Depends if you calculate the draft in. A support can play well, but if you loose the entire early game his pick was just bad (among other picks). If you go Io/ww/sk/eni you better make sure you are winning the lanes anyways. The idea of support-play is after all that the support is dominant early, so his cores can easier pick up later.
Io is doing mostly badly because he needs a special draft imo. The partner thing is a littlebit overrated, but you need a team that can get ahead early on/be equal for him to do his magic, because as a defensive support he's mediocre at best, and in 5v5 fights his impact is pretty low.
SK is mostly hit or miss in my games and he's relatively rare. Half of the games he's good and gets a 6-8 mins blink, wins midlane with it and epi's the enemies most dominant lane down. After that he mb hits 2-5 nice epis in the game and had a good impact. Half of the other games one of the lanes folds terribly because they have a support less, people spent a shitload of resources to try to fix that and more often than not it doesnt work. Or sk continues to farm after blink and take away gold that by that time the mid could have picked up.
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On October 06 2015 10:22 beestron wrote:
in ur 10tbd game dont play no 4 or 5
get at least 2 game doing good at mid
u will pass 4k easily.
MMR is for no 1 and 2 ... this stupid system are there since the 1st day of its released
went 4-6 in my calibration games as nearly all support (Beat Nazguls bloodseeker in one game lol) calibrated at 4.4k. This was a long time ago mind you and i had played thousands of games before hand, so i'm guessing my hidden mmr was decent before i started my calibration.
As for my advice for playing supports in pub is that dewarding is more valuable than warding most of the time and to be as greedy as possible as often as you can get away with it. Also your last hitting has to be spot on as support, you might only get one wave before a core returns or you have to move/tp away so getting all 4 last hits or whatever is massively important.
Also a mistake a few of my lower skilled friends do when playing support and the game is going well is to buy too much support stuff. You really only ever need 1-2 wards on the map at a time to know where everyone is and often you'll see supports get an influx of cash and go mad with buying wards,sentries, dust etc when they could have saved that bit of cash and got that blink or glimmer etc.
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EPT
