• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:01
CEST 22:01
KST 05:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon100Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?179Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9
StarCraft 2
General
38 yo Retired SWE looking to save SC IP I have 0 hope Blizzard doing anything with SC IP SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 8/8 Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder an AI researcher's take on the ladder bot Working 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 Ladder BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[BSL23] SM: Ret vs TerrOr - bo7 - Sunday 9pm CEST [ASL22] Ro16 Group D [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro16 Group C
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Diablo IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Post Your Watch!
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8294 users

How to fix SC2 problems

Blogs > LastWish
Post a Reply
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2015 Posts
July 18 2015 13:12 GMT
#1
Thought about it and I think that the main points LOTV needs to solve are:
1. Death ball plays
2. Lack of interesting units that would promote unique plays

So rather than suggesting specific fixes to these problems I would like to point out a direction that is in my opinion optimal for solving these problems.

Death ball plays

Some time ago I re-played all the 90' old RTS which when I was younger I struggled to beat.
One of those games was KKND2, a game where similarly to StarCraft there are 3 races.
The game is however pretty imbalanced, but there are some lessons to be learnt anyway.

I realized that if I try to just mass a lot of units a press a-move I don't automatically win.
You see in KKND2 there are a lot of units and even static defences with a solid splash damage.

So rather than a-moving a huge army you are rewarded for tactical plays.
Doing drops to strategic location, attacking weakly defended locations, small air groups...

If you think about it in SC-Broodwar compared to SC2 you had a lot of powerful splash damage units and abilities - Siege Tanks, Spider mines, Irradiate, Lurkers, Plague, Reavers, Psionic Storm, Corsairs, Valkyries, Devourers.
Now in SC2 there are a few aswell, but their use is somewhat specialized.
Siege Tanks aren't very popular, you occasionaly see some cool Heat seeking missiles used, zerg has the fungal which is more of mass stun than damage spell, so you are left with like a few units/abilities that do splash and are used Colossus, Thor, widow mine and storm.

So no wonder that protoss deathballs are so strong, there is no zerg or terran ground splash to counter.
No wonder that protoss struggles with mass multalisks, there is no solid AOE to counter them.

Cool units

Blizzard has taken a path to design cool units.
What makes a cool unit:
- attack/abilities/usage that is somewhat innovative
- micro potential -> skill ceiling

But what I see in SC2 micro is just hit & run and positioning.

I would like to take another game example here.
I used to play Dota for years and later on I switched to League of Legends.

If you look at LoL ability design you see a pattern - abilities with cast/spawn delay, abilities which need to be aimed, projectiles which travel at speed, abilities which do damage over time to area...
Basically the abilities need to be aimed correctly by the caster, require some sort of prediction of the enemy behavior. But the enemy still has choices to dodge, avoid or reduce the damage taken.

If we look at Broodwar again we will see that a lot of abilities are exactly like that:
Irradiate damage can be reduced if you move the affected unit away from the group.
Emp can be slightly dodged.
Spider mines can be slighly dodged also.
Defiler plague cannot be dodged however you may retreat to safety and repair or regenerate(if you aren't protoss that is).
Lurker spines can be dodged!
Revear shots damage can be greatly reduced if you split or move away your units.
Storms can be completely dodged or damage reduced if you move away.

At the same time SC2 has:
Widow mines cannot be dodged.
Emp is instant and cannot be dodged.
Fungal growth after HOTS can finally be dodged although chain fungal still cannot be microed against.
Storm can be slighlty avoided however compared to SC1 storm it is instant spawn with almost instant damage spell so much less avoidable.
Colossus damage cannot be avoided.

Only heat seeking missile can be dodged!

Conclusion
SC2 LOTV needs much much more splash damage in units or in abilities.
SC2 LOTV needs abilities that have spawn delays, require aiming or do damage over long periods of time in order to introduce new forms of micro and increase the skill ceiling.







*
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
July 18 2015 14:55 GMT
#2
If they put cast delay in SC2 or animation delay I'll lose my fucking shit. I still think that the main problem has to do with the unit pathing and the near infinite control groups that automatically clump up units.

Tanks used to be really good in BW and there are many PvT games from back in the day that were made interesting by those insane maginot lines of tanks that cut the map in two with mines and vultures in front and hovering science vessels on top for EMPs which landed on arbiters and armies which had a substantial effect on the outcome of the fight. The tank lines would span 3-4+ screens and would defend the terran economy and map control.

Similarly the armies being scattered and constantly fighting in the center of the map for control and information meant that psi storms could be very powerful. Right now, psi storms are weak as hell because if they did decent damage they would be too powerful since many armies are naturally dense and expensive.

I think that Blizzard needs to do things that promote the spreading out of units. Control groups of 24-30 and maybe more for zerglings, powerful positional play, psi storms that will allow small groups of Protoss units to deal a lot of damage to large groups of enemy units rather than being overrun for free and similar mechanics for other races. Which doesn't mean you should always be able to get away. There's too much of an emphasis that is put on harassing units that should be able to go in and then get away and that is their only role, and too little importance put on just getting map control in a way that isn't having coercive force where if you get caught by a bigger army you'll lose more and you'll eventually lose the game.

And although I haven't been watching much SC2 lately and I don't know where any of these issues stand really, I still believe that the colossus is the embodiment of what I feel makes SC2 boring for me (and this comes from a protoss player). It walks over units, so it reinforces the deathball, while not really dissuading the other player from playing in a way which foreshadows an all in engagement of deathballs. So all the side conflicts tend to be shy, and limited, using very powerful and fast yet incredibly boring harasses with units that can die and will be rebuilt anyway.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Clubfan
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
Germany913 Posts
July 18 2015 15:10 GMT
#3
On July 18 2015 22:12 LastWish wrote:
[...]
Widow mines cannot be dodged.
[...]

Actually, blink stalkers can dodge them, also proper splitting can minimize the damage by quite a lot. Imo that's one of the coolest things we see in SC2 these days as it separates good players from the best.
LiquipediaLickyPiddy manager
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
AI Arena Tournament
17:00
Swiss - Round 2
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason99
EnDerr 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 621
Dewaltoss 150
HiyA 44
910 28
Trap 17
Free 7
League of Legends
Doublelift1234
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps0
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu652
Trikslyr53
Other Games
summit1g5865
Grubby3193
FrodaN2533
byalli809
fl0m679
shahzam459
mouzStarbuck349
B2W.Neo289
KnowMe257
ToD161
IndyStarCraft 96
QueenE80
Livibee77
Mew2King74
CosmosSc2 27
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream9582
Other Games
gamesdonequick2576
BasetradeTV79
angryscii8
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 64
• mYiSmile140
• Adnapsc2 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 39
• FirePhoenix11
• Pr0nogo 9
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Shiphtur266
Other Games
• imaqtpie1170
• WagamamaTV237
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 59m
GSL
14h 59m
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
18h 59m
Spirit vs Mixu
BSL
22h 59m
Ret vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 13h
Shine vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
1d 14h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 19h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Light vs EffOrt
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-18
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Calamity Invitational
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.