I can't fucking stand rap. I enjoy or can at least tolerate most other genres, but not this one.
I normally wouldn't complain despite the fact I'm a classically trained musician, but fuck a lot of my friends blast that shit during a sesh and I would try my best to somehow enjoy the music, but end up leaving after 30 minutes.
Musically, the genre is objectively and absolutely shit. Very little to no polyphony, often out of tune, so simplistic with a beat / 1-2 instruments on a repetitive melody, and "voice" aka speaking.
Lyrics wise, well... lol. No need to even say anything here, 95% of the genre speaks for itself. Bitches, booze, weed, crime, etc. etc. Like really? I can sort of understand the appeal once in a while when you're fucked on coke or something and feel like you can do anything, but blasting this shit 24/7? Fuck, I wish some of my friends would grow the fuck up.
I try so hard not to be elitist because music is unarguably subjective, but fuck this shitty genre. Not saying 100% of the genre is complete shit, but when 95%+ of it is, RAP "artists" Y'ALL CAN GO FUCK YOURSELF.
RETARDS ATTEMPTING POETRY indeed. END RANT.
Like, you know a genre is complete fucking garbage when you can't even stand it baked outa of your mind at a 8-9/10.
Edit: One of the few gems of rap that I genuinely enjoyed for a few listenings.
Cool, everyone is entitled to an opinion and yours is as valid as mine or anyone else's. But if you listen to the Kendrick Lamar album and tell me it's not good music I'm accusing you of bad taste right here.
Edit: and I also want to point out that 80% of music being garbage is pretty much true in any genre. I can't stand fucking Mozart, David Guetta or Cradle of Filth, but that doesn't mean classical, dance and metal music are bad in general.
[Most people are gonna respond to this with a similar angle. I just felt like writing about this topic since I see it a lot.]
A lot of people judge the genre by its surface. Now, this isn't new- rap is a genre where mainstream and underground is completely different, so it's natural that some people only look at mainstream and try to judge the entire genre on that pedestal.
Now the instrumental backing of most mainstream rap tracks isn't meant to be complicated. It's meant to incite an emotion- which makes it ideal for parties. For examples of this, you can turn to pretty much any 90s big west coast album - or more recently, you could turn to something like If You're Reading This It's Too Late. Now, does this make these albums objectively amazing? No. But it gives a purpose for them. If you're not so into this type of party music, that's perfectly fine. A lot of people are, and a lot of people aren't.
In terms of mainstream lyrics.. Yeah. They have a pretty weird and complicated history, but this doesn't mean you should color an entire genre by them. Or even the popular parts of a genre. The most popular rap album of 2014 wasn't about doing drugs or crime in a glorifying sense at all. Sure, it mentioned them, but it mentioned them in the same breath as a lot of other topics. For many people who are into rap, drugs and crime are simply a reality. If not for them, for people close to them. That's why you see it as a very popular topic. They're a huge part of the lives of many people in the lower class of america right now. Does this mean everything's positive? No. There's a lot of rap that is glorifying this lifestyle, and I think that type of rap is fine to condemn. But don't burn a genre based on its weakest artists.
I think the problems rap faces right now are the same problems more or less every genre faces. Look at Country, for example. A lot of bro-country out there is largely the same as rap - except softer, admittedly - and it's the vast majority of popular country music. Does this mean country is a shit genre and 99% of country is useless? No. It means that the sub-genre that gets popularity doesn't fit a critic's type of quality.
The only genres that aren't tainted at least somewhat by this simply aren't popular. Say, classical. Or rock [but remember the 2000s? Yeah, that's like if you used the popular music during the 2000s to say all rock sucks].
Aside from the previously mentioned Forest Hill Drive, there's also To Pimp A Butterfly and I Don't Like Shit, I Don't Go Outside that have gotten pretty good (or even amazing) sales within the past few months are talking about positive messages. These are mainstream albums by mainstream artists.
Then, you have the underground scene. Of course, you mention that not all rap is terrible - I presume this is talking about the underground scene. Just for the sake of it, here's a [pathetically tiny relative to reality] list of people in the underground scene who are either incredibly varied instrumentally or incredibly creative and talented lyrically.
- Mick Jenkins [#montreal, although he's not from here] - Atmosphere [Instrumentally as well.] - Aesop Rock [Seriously.] - Sage Francis - El-P [<3]
And here's some mainstream artists - who may not be active anymore - who are incredibly talented with good messages and genuinely try to advance society.
- Mos Def & Talib Kweli [check out Black Star] - Lupe Fiasco [check out Tetsuo & Youth.] - J. Cole [Forest Hill Drive] - Childish Gambino [instrumentally as well. check out beyond the internet.] - OutKast [more on the instrumental side - their subject matter, while being amazing, isn't too different from the regular. Just much, much more high quality]
This isn't to say you aren't allowed to have an opinion, and I don't hold anything against you. I'm just trying to make a case for why one would enjoy rap, and why the flaws you mentioned don't prevent me from liking it.
I don't mean anything but love. Have a great day <3.
Aesop Rock is a genius Soularion His lyrics are amazing!
I love Sage Francis too. Generally i'm of the opinion that hip hop is generally pretty rubbish but there are some outstanding artists hidden amongst the jungle of nonsense. BTW i don't think its a coincidence that alot of the rappers I like are white. I'm not sure if its a cultural empathy type of thing or what but its definitely noticeable. I had absolutely no interest in hip hop at all until I saw Atmosphere live in the UK last year. It was a fairly small venue with probably 300 people in it and they fucking rocked the place. This rapper has awesome skills and plays with some interesting timings/time signatures:
I suggest anything from El-P, he is known for his futuristic sounds. In particular the albums "Funcrusher Plus" (Company Flow), " Fantastic Damage" and "Cold Vein" (Cannibal Ox). These are probably the best HipHop albums of all time.
Awesome, rant into genuine discovery. Will try to give the suggestions in this thread a good listen.
I pretty much only listen to electro (psytrance, some house, basically the 5% good stuff before the genre went mainstream), classical and metal with a few sparse songs from other genres.
I guess despite trying hard not to be elitist, I personally just value the complexity of music, and more importantly the training required to produce/appreciate such music, much more than the average person. A decent parallel can be drawn between SC2 and minecraft I suppose, each game has its respective fanbase but most of TL would prefer a good challenging game of SC2 as opposed to mindlessly mining ore. Both games undoubtedly offer tons of entertainment value, but one offers a lot more replayability than the other (barring some huge updates in minecraft).
In this one regard, I truly believe my aforementioned music genres are "better" in terms of their value in "re-listenability". I could appreciate a catch melody even though I might find the song to be terrible overall, but 1-2 listenings of your average hip-hop song is more than enough for me without an extensive break. In comparison, for more complex music, especially those that offer a ton of polyphony, I'm getting something different out of it almost every time I put on my headphones. The simplistic "emotional appeal" of popular music, IMO gets tiresome pretty fast even for your average listener.
The first time that my auditory processing was completely overloaded by a polyphonic and harmonically genius masterpiece, I was in heaven. I genuinely hope more people could share my euphoria with a bit of effort and basic training in music.
Edit: would be VERY interested in a correlational study that looks into basic music training (i'm talking about just being able to read sheet music and maybe mess around with entry-level pieces on an instrument) in relation to genres preferred. Obviously there are tons of other factors at play (culture, socio-economic status, etc.), but I'm willing to bet that more people would forgo your typical popular music for more complex ones with just a bit of training. It's a matter of "cheap pleasure" vs. a higher appreciation of the arts, and the 2 main reasons that most people are content with popular music is due to the huge obstacle in acquiring a music education, and the endless waves of new popular music that comes out daily in order to continuing fueling the instant auditory pleasure.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there just might be some objectivity in what constitutes "good music", and in the end it's all about simply deriving pleasure vs. being overwhelmed by waves pure auditory ecstasy.
TL;DR: all my arguments are based around the complexity of music. More complex music offers a higher level of enjoyment with some effort and training, and also provides a lot more "re-listenability"
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there just might be some objectivity in what constitutes "good music", and in the end it's all about simply deriving pleasure vs. being overwhelmed by waves pure auditory ecstasy.
"Being overhwelmed by waves of pure auditory ecstasy" is simply another way of saying "deriving pleasure". Don't try to elevate your music to something that its not. And if you want to be overwhelmed by waves of pure sound, try Tim Hecker. or SunnO))).
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I guess despite trying hard not to be elitist, I personally just value the complexity of music, and more importantly the training required to produce/appreciate such music
The training required to produce music is entirely irrelevant. the aura of the work of art is dead, yo, didn't you read Walter Benjamin?
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In this one regard, I truly believe my aforementioned music genres are "better" in terms of their value in "re-listenability". I could appreciate a catch melody even though I might find the song to be terrible overall, but 1-2 listenings of your average hip-hop song is more than enough for me without an extensive break. In comparison, for more complex music, especially those that offer a ton of polyphony, I'm getting something different out of it almost every time I put on my headphones. The simplistic "emotional appeal" of popular music, IMO gets tiresome pretty fast even for your average listener.
Music always has "emotional appeal." That is in fact everything there is to music. If you don't listen to Bach for the emotion (of which there is plenty, which is why Bach is so good), there is something seriously wrong with you, classical training or not.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there just might be some objectivity in what constitutes "good music", and in the end it's all about simply deriving pleasure vs. being overwhelmed by waves pure auditory ecstasy.
"Being overhwelmed by waves of pure auditory ecstasy" is simply another way of saying "deriving pleasure". Don't try to elevate your music to something that its not. And if you want to be overwhelmed by waves of pure sound, try Tim Hecker. or SunnO))).
I guess despite trying hard not to be elitist, I personally just value the complexity of music, and more importantly the training required to produce/appreciate such music
The training required to produce music is entirely irrelevant. the aura of the work of art is dead, yo, didn't you read Walter Benjamin?
In this one regard, I truly believe my aforementioned music genres are "better" in terms of their value in "re-listenability". I could appreciate a catch melody even though I might find the song to be terrible overall, but 1-2 listenings of your average hip-hop song is more than enough for me without an extensive break. In comparison, for more complex music, especially those that offer a ton of polyphony, I'm getting something different out of it almost every time I put on my headphones. The simplistic "emotional appeal" of popular music, IMO gets tiresome pretty fast even for your average listener.
Music always has "emotional appeal." That is in fact everything there is to music. If you don't listen to Bach for the emotion (of which there is plenty, which is why Bach is so good), there is something seriously wrong with you, classical training or not.
No, euphoria is a much stronger diction choice than pleasure.
Training required to produce music is VERY relevant, are you telling me you don't appreciate the skill level of good musicians?
Lastly, what I meant by "emotional appeal" was a direct reply to Soularion. Of course all music has emotional appeal, the difference lies with when you solely rely on eliciting an emotional response.
Anyway, way to ignore all my points and simply try to pick apart the weaker semantics in my post.
Sounds like this has turned into a popular music is cheap discussion. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. Why would you pull rap into that though? To me these are two entirely different subjects. Yes, rap has cheap popular music, but so does every other genre.
Rap music offers the same diversity as other genres do. There are great lyricists (the early Nas is amazing!), great technicians like Daveed Diggs (clipping.), great storytellers (Kendrick Lamar is one of the later examples) and great entertainers (the early Snoop Dogg stuff sometimes is funny as hell, for example) The sexism presented in gangsta rap is only a small portion of the whole deal. Gangsta rap is a very specific sub genre of rap music, and for some reasons it became the most prominent one. (mostly due to correlations between capitalism, youth culture and the general glorification of ruthlessness and power in our society.)
There's no such thing as "better" music, there's only music you like and music you don't like. Of course, there are different styles of music with different levels of complexity. You have to think about it this way: Very complex music needs a very concentrated approach. You just can't listen to Bach without really LISTENING to it, if you don't it devolves into muzak. In my opinion, there is "head music" and "body music". Rap mostly is body music, as it is drawing its energy and general flow from rhythmic elements. But rap music can be very complex and challenging, too. Not on the melodic side, but rhythmically. It's more than just a guy talking over a beat.
You also forget that rap actually is only a part of the whole hiphop culture, which people always tend to neglect. Hiphop is much more than rap music. It's a way of living. While I don't consider myself a hiphopper, I respect the background and rich history of the sub culture. (Don't confuse mainstream rap bullshit like Pitbull or Lil'Jon with hiphop, please.)
Your whole approach is typical for someone who wants to distinguish himself by drawing arbitrary lines between "good" and "bad". Keep yourself out of the equation and listen to the music. Try to get behind the sounds and words. There's great music in every genre. And by saying that, I really mean EVERY genre. But this doesn't mean that you have to like every genre. And it also doesn't mean that the stuff you like is in some way worthier than the stuff other people like.
Popular music is music for the moment. It is meant to be simple and catchy. Sometimes, a nice little melody and a good beat are enough. I can't imagine myself listening to John Coltrane while working out.
On June 20 2015 18:51 EngrishTeacher wrote: Awesome, rant into genuine discovery. Will try to give the suggestions in this thread a good listen.
I pretty much only listen to electro (psytrance, some house, basically the 5% good stuff before the genre went mainstream), classical and metal with a few sparse songs from other genres.
I guess despite trying hard not to be elitist, I personally just value the complexity of music, and more importantly the training required to produce/appreciate such music, much more than the average person. A decent parallel can be drawn between SC2 and minecraft I suppose, each game has its respective fanbase but most of TL would prefer a good challenging game of SC2 as opposed to mindlessly mining ore. Both games undoubtedly offer tons of entertainment value, but one offers a lot more replayability than the other (barring some huge updates in minecraft).
In this one regard, I truly believe my aforementioned music genres are "better" in terms of their value in "re-listenability". I could appreciate a catch melody even though I might find the song to be terrible overall, but 1-2 listenings of your average hip-hop song is more than enough for me without an extensive break. In comparison, for more complex music, especially those that offer a ton of polyphony, I'm getting something different out of it almost every time I put on my headphones. The simplistic "emotional appeal" of popular music, IMO gets tiresome pretty fast even for your average listener.
The first time that my auditory processing was completely overloaded by a polyphonic and harmonically genius masterpiece, I was in heaven. I genuinely hope more people could share my euphoria with a bit of effort and basic training in music.
Edit: would be VERY interested in a correlational study that looks into basic music training (i'm talking about just being able to read sheet music and maybe mess around with entry-level pieces on an instrument) in relation to genres preferred. Obviously there are tons of other factors at play (culture, socio-economic status, etc.), but I'm willing to bet that more people would forgo your typical popular music for more complex ones with just a bit of training. It's a matter of "cheap pleasure" vs. a higher appreciation of the arts, and the 2 main reasons that most people are content with popular music is due to the huge obstacle in acquiring a music education, and the endless waves of new popular music that comes out daily in order to continuing fueling the instant auditory pleasure.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there just might be some objectivity in what constitutes "good music", and in the end it's all about simply deriving pleasure vs. being overwhelmed by waves pure auditory ecstasy.
TL;DR: all my arguments are based around the complexity of music. More complex music offers a higher level of enjoyment with some effort and training, and also provides a lot more "re-listenability"
I get it, yo. While I don't necessarily agree personally with your points, I can see why someone would feel this way and I appreciate that you're willing to see my side of things. I'm not sure if you'll necessarily like everything I and others posted, but I hope you can find something you enjoy. When it's all over, music is just about personal enjoyment, so listen to what makes you feel good and be happy with that. Just because I really like rap doesn't mean everyone has to, or should have to.
No, euphoria is a much stronger diction choice than pleasure.
Training required to produce music is VERY relevant, are you telling me you don't appreciate the skill level of good musicians?
Lastly, what I meant by "emotional appeal" was a direct reply to Soularion. Of course all music has emotional appeal, the difference lies with when you solely rely on eliciting an emotional response.
Anyway, way to ignore all my points and simply try to pick apart the weaker semantics in my post.
My friend, this has nothing to do with the "weaker semantics" in your post. I'm saying that you fundamentally misunderstand how to appreciate music. Consuming art is about forgetting the artist, not about revelling in his skill. The Typewriter monkeys, the discovery of the unconscious let alone the fact that "people" are a fiction (that would be Nietzsche or Deleuze/DeLanda), Barthes' death of the author... There's a million ways to convincingly argue that what the creator/author/artist does and thinks and is capable of is entirely unimportant. In other words, your classical training actually impedes you from enjoying music.
Very complex music needs a very concentrated approach. You just can't listen to Bach without really LISTENING to it, if you don't it devolves into muzak. In my opinion, there is "head music" and "body music"."
When I listen to Christ lag in Todesbanden or whatever I don't listen to that in any way differently than I do to any other music. The way to enjoy it is to feel it, not to count the complex patterns. The complexity of the music is a TOOL used to express emotions. Mos Def and Kendrick Lamar want to express different emotions for which different tools are required. If OP cannot enjoy these artists it is because he is unable to feel these emotions. Which is his problem, not Kendrick Lamar's.
And to whoever just mentioned E-Musik and U-Musik: Please stop. It is a retarded concept.
When I listen to Christ lag in Todesbanden or whatever I don't listen to that in any way differently than I do to any other music. The way to enjoy it is to feel it, not to count the complex patterns. The complexity of the music is a TOOL used to express emotions. Mos Def and Kendrick Lamar want to express different emotions for which different tools are required. If OP cannot enjoy these artists it is because he is unable to feel these emotions. Which is his problem, not Kendrick Lamar's.
Agreed. Listening to music is a subjective experience. Normally, I hate it when there's music in the background. When I'm listening to music, I need to focus on it. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to decipher the harmonic progressions or other theoretical stuff. It's more about being receptive and open-minded, yet concentrated. I'm like a sponge.
The reason that I don't like rap, (even the serious underground rap, not just the mainstream garbage) is that I like music, not poetry. I do not understand poetry., but musical patterns and romantic themes. Vocals are just an other instrument like any other, a part of the symphony.
However, just because I fail to appreciate poetry, doesn't mean that it's not good. But poetically speaking, most rap is, as was pointed out earlier, retards attempting poetry. It's terrible. There's probably some rap that isn't shit, but I haven't heard it yet. This may be because I've heard the rap equivalent of shitty mallcore.
The way to enjoy it is to feel it, not to count the complex patterns. The complexity of the music is a TOOL used to express emotions. Mos Def and Kendrick Lamar want to express different emotions for which different tools are required. If OP cannot enjoy these artists it is because he is unable to feel these emotions. Which is his problem, not Kendrick Lamar's.
I enjoy the emotional themes of music, but also the structural aspect. Not just as a tool to convey emotions, but for its own sake. And like you were saying, if you can't appreciate beautiful structures, then that's your problem, not the composer's.
Furthermore, not feeling the intended emotion from a piece of music doesn't mean that one is incapable of feeling that emotion. And, not being able to appreciate a piece of music does not mean that the subject doesn't feel the emotion. It could mean that he doesn't find it appealing.
I am by the belief that there are gems in every genre, and rap has Public Enemy, so ^^ Although that doesn't stop rap from being 90%+ shit :/
Edit: 90% is probably kinda harsh, it's mostly radio stations fault for playing Nicki Minaj and similar abominations of music, I bet the underground rap scene, or just less popular rap in general, has alot more to offer then the commercial rap that you hear everyday
There are a few good ones but to me the genre has been completely ruined by nigga bitch mistreat the women and do violence because tough childhood bitch nigga and also get some pussy on the side.
Ignoring the lyrics though I find most of it to be rather unpleasant to the ears. Anyway please buy my album. And I apologize if my understanding of the genre is limited, I can only base my opinion on the stuff that I'm exposed.
EPT
His lyrics are amazing!
