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United States2063 Posts
Update: DISMISSED
There is an online citation contest thing that allows 14 lines of text. This is what I have written so far, wondering If I should clean it up or word it differently, or am leaving out anything better to appeal.
California
I deliver food as part of my job at [Chinese place]. It gets very busy and orders have to be delivered quickly and efficiently, then I return to work to pickup more orders to be delivered from downtown HB, Newport and Costa Mesa. On this particular Sunday night, It was very busy. I was scheduled to be off of work at 9:00pm and was asked to work later. Much like any delivery driver when no parking is present, the engine, headlights, and flashers are left on while the delivery is being made from a few seconds to a few minutes. This particular neighborhood has notoriously bad parking especially on a Sunday night. I have delivered to this house and many others in the same fashion with no complaints or incident previously. I was not blocking the through traffic or any other vehicles. The person who wrote the ticket was idled in the same fashion I was for the same amount of time since there was no available parking and I came back to them speeding off. In order to deliver in a timely manner I would have to park in the adjacent neighborhood and walk across the crosswalk of the major intersection (approx 1000 feet).
So this neighborhood like I said, has no parking because its lower/middle class family townhouses. And each house probably has like 2-3 cars on average and only 1 designated parking space.
I've delivered to this house before, and much the same as before. The kid wasn't ready (because we were earlier than the 45 minutes we say on the phone). So he is scrambling his money upstairs. His dad was downstairs and is a sorta weird nice older guy who insists I come in and not let the air out.
This house is maybe 30 feet from where I idled (2-3 houses). It takes him a few minutes because he didn't have his money right or something and apologized and tipped me in quarters. Overall time I was idled and waiting was probably like 3 minutes (I know because dude was watching history channel WW2 thing which went to commercial as soon as I came in the door and didn't come back on by the time I left).
I step outside and see a vehicle speeding off. I get in my car and see a 55$ double parking ticket. The ticket says there was photo taken etc. (What does this mean exactly?) The citation time says 9:24pm , and it was 9:26 when I got into my car.
Here are pics of the street in the daytime:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O04ZWwk.jpg)
I also have a copy of the work/food receipt with the address and time on it.
I think this is pretty ridiculous and the ticket writer was clearly on some sort of trigger happy power trip/quota hunt type of thing. UPS, Fedex, Taxi, Pizza delivery drivers, etc all do the exact same thing. Not to mention the person writing the ticket was there doing the exact same 'crime' for the same amount of time I was since there was no parking available.
Is there anything else I can say or do to appeal to this better?
I've got 21 days to appeal and I can do so via online, or go into the building. I looked on the local police facebook page and they are having a community/cop meetup thing on wednesday at a starbucks and I'm going to go there and ask them what I should do as well.
As a side note, my boss did agree it was ridiculous and offered to help if it wasn't appealed. I dunno what he meant exactly, but either way it's a principle thing anyway. Imagine if this was enforced this strictly all over the place. Commerce and business would slow down immensely for no benefit. To me it's just a govt racket for money.
I think this is the state code: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=22001-23000&file=22500-22526
However, the letter of the law and spirit of the law aren't the same thing.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51464 Posts
Good luck fighting this one, i hope they at least drop the fine to something alot smaller if they don't remove it all together! Annoying when your job is to deliver food. Ah well, just got to keep asking questions and getting help.
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Does that really give you any chance in the US? Because in my country there is no way to contest a fine solely on the grounds that you "needed to park there" - you could contest only that you were not parking wrongly (wrong call by the policeman) and even that's next to impossible to win. The fact that you did it as a part of your work would only make things worse I guess - at least many people would rather pardon some minor misbehaviour in private as opposed to someone who is "making money off it".
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United States2063 Posts
On May 19 2015 18:04 opisska wrote:
Does that really give you any chance in the US? Because in my country there is no way to contest a fine solely on the grounds that you "needed to park there" - you could contest only that you were not parking wrongly (wrong call by the policeman) and even that's next to impossible to win. The fact that you did it as a part of your work would only make things worse I guess - at least many people would rather pardon some minor misbehaviour in private as opposed to someone who is "making money off it".
I think the reverse argument is more important.
A private person could have and would have easily found a place to park as it's no time constraint or duty to anything.
The fact that it's for work, and that it's for service of a customer (speed, hot food, and get back in time for the next customer) makes it seem less personal/entitled. I wouldn't even have been here if not just doing my job. Which is often the type of thing a law enforcement person will say when giving out a ticket. There is no way I would ever do this if it wasn't required of me via my job (there wouldn't ever be a need).
Also, it's not like delivery people are paid a lot of money. There are vehicle overhead costs, gas costs, insurance, car payments, etc. It seems kind of shitty to ticket these kinds of people in a society that relies on them a lot.
The whole thing was so shady though. The parking control wasn't trying to do good or justice or serve the public, they just saw an opportunity to make a quota and snipe it out as quick as they could knowing that the car owner would be back in seconds. Then they sped off just as fast as they came like a thief in the night, because if they didn't, the owner would have come out and been like "lol what the fuck are you doing?" and just leave. They knew damn well the bullshit they were pulling and it's despicable, "To serve and protect", my ass.
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You probably shouldn't bring up the part about the cop just trying to fill a quota or the cop committing the same crime as you to give you a ticket. They won't care about that. If you really want to you might say that the cop sped off without talking to you when they saw you. Not sure they will like that either.
You might have more luck getting your employer to help cover the ticket, since they are the ones who put pressure on you to deliver to this type of area in this fashion.
opisska, I think the delivery guy is the one in a difficult spot, and isn't the one making lots of money. I have more sympathy for your point of view if you think of it as the delivery guy's boss putting pressure on him to deliver in this way to make more money. Blame should travel up here unless his boss is explicitly telling him to take the long way, and he is probably doing the opposite.
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On May 19 2015 19:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 18:04 opisska wrote:
Does that really give you any chance in the US? Because in my country there is no way to contest a fine solely on the grounds that you "needed to park there" - you could contest only that you were not parking wrongly (wrong call by the policeman) and even that's next to impossible to win. The fact that you did it as a part of your work would only make things worse I guess - at least many people would rather pardon some minor misbehaviour in private as opposed to someone who is "making money off it". I think the reverse argument is more important. A private person could have and would have easily found a place to park as it's no time constraint or duty to anything. The fact that it's for work, and that it's for service of a customer (speed, hot food, and get back in time for the next customer) makes it seem less personal/entitled. I wouldn't even have been here if not just doing my job. Which is often the type of thing a law enforcement person will say when giving out a ticket. There is no way I would ever do this if it wasn't required of me via my job (there wouldn't ever be a need). Also, it's not like delivery people are paid a lot of money. There are vehicle overhead costs, gas costs, insurance, car payments, etc. It seems kind of shitty to ticket these kinds of people in a society that relies on them a lot. The whole thing was so shady though. The parking control wasn't trying to do good or justice or serve the public, they just saw an opportunity to make a quota and snipe it out as quick as they could knowing that the car owner would be back in seconds. Then they sped off just as fast as they came like a thief in the night, because if they didn't, the owner would have come out and been like "lol what the fuck are you doing?" and just leave. They knew damn well the bullshit they were pulling and it's despicable, "To serve and protect", my ass.
I am sorry to sound maybe rude, but the society does not rely on delivery people. Lazy people do use them, that's about it. If you could not deliver food, the customers would not die from hunger, they would just have to go outside to get the food. That would not be a collapse of the civilization, trust me (we have very little delivery here and the society is pretty much working still).
The point of the whole state (including law enforcement) should be to allow people to live with each other and to manage limited shared resources. The reason parking tickets exist is that space on the street is a limited resource and thus needs to be regulated. Now there is an idea which may not resonate very well overseas, but many people here believe that many shared resources should be provided for free, or regulated costs, to private persons (who are seen as shareholders in the common resources), while anyone who uses them for business should compensate the rest for the fact that they make profit using these shared resources. You can see that easily when you try to start a business using your house - suddenly you have to pay much more for all the services, because you fail to be eligible for the "citizen discount" since you make profit off them. The fact that your particular profit is not very large, is really not anyone else's problem.
While I agree that in this specific case, the policeman was almost surely more motivated by his own profit or some other pressure than the desire to serve the greater good, I don't see how the "it's my job" defense holds any water.
edit: to clarify, I agree with Chef that the blame should not in principle be on the "delivery guy", but the "delivery party" - also if the employer pressures the employee to brake laws (even minor ones) that's highly illegal (and immoral at the same time). For the sake of the simplicity of the argument, I have always spoken about "you vs. cops", but it should be really "the delivery company vs. cops" - however it's not really a traffic department's jurisdcition to sort out the responsibility inside the company.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51464 Posts
I know in England we have "unwritten" laws helping delivery drivers in said issues. For example a delivery driver can drive INTO town center at x time of the day where no one else can ever. Same goes as for parking on double yellow lines we have in England. Delivery driver gets to do that for a short period of time.
Imo you might get away with if you apologize and say what happened but like Chef says do not bring up being picked on / police officer quota / someone else did it.
Just say your sorry, i thought i could do that because i was there for 5 minutes etc.
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You're going to need to see what the city ordinances are for deliver drivers. If that gives an exception to where/how you parked you will most likely be able to use that. Otherwise GL (nothing in your text makes you "not guilty"). Also do NOT talk about how the "peace officer" did the same "crime" - the VC specifically states in compliance with the directions of a peace officer or official traffic control devic Which they are in compliance with. You just need to find out what the city ordinance is for delivery (since proving you were on a deliver is not the problem).
I've gotten out of a few tickets by diligently reading the CA VC and appealing :D
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A lot of these parking tickets are pretty easily waived. I've done this a bunch when I parked illegally while I was studying in NY. All I had to do was write letters to the judge, wait 3-4 months for the decision, and I never paid a dime.
I'm guessing there is a similar process in CA?
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Go in person and talk to the prosecutor. I imagine you'll get a bit more sympathy in person than online where you're basically admitting you didn't want to walk and you're saying the guy's a dick cuz he did the same thing you did haha.
Just say you were working, you do that all the time without problem and so do lots of delivery folk, and you didn't know and you are sorry. Go for pity, don't finger point. THat's probably your best option.
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United States2063 Posts
On May 19 2015 20:36 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 19:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:On May 19 2015 18:04 opisska wrote:
Does that really give you any chance in the US? Because in my country there is no way to contest a fine solely on the grounds that you "needed to park there" - you could contest only that you were not parking wrongly (wrong call by the policeman) and even that's next to impossible to win. The fact that you did it as a part of your work would only make things worse I guess - at least many people would rather pardon some minor misbehaviour in private as opposed to someone who is "making money off it". I think the reverse argument is more important. A private person could have and would have easily found a place to park as it's no time constraint or duty to anything. The fact that it's for work, and that it's for service of a customer (speed, hot food, and get back in time for the next customer) makes it seem less personal/entitled. I wouldn't even have been here if not just doing my job. Which is often the type of thing a law enforcement person will say when giving out a ticket. There is no way I would ever do this if it wasn't required of me via my job (there wouldn't ever be a need). Also, it's not like delivery people are paid a lot of money. There are vehicle overhead costs, gas costs, insurance, car payments, etc. It seems kind of shitty to ticket these kinds of people in a society that relies on them a lot. The whole thing was so shady though. The parking control wasn't trying to do good or justice or serve the public, they just saw an opportunity to make a quota and snipe it out as quick as they could knowing that the car owner would be back in seconds. Then they sped off just as fast as they came like a thief in the night, because if they didn't, the owner would have come out and been like "lol what the fuck are you doing?" and just leave. They knew damn well the bullshit they were pulling and it's despicable, "To serve and protect", my ass. I am sorry to sound maybe rude, but the society does not rely on delivery people. Lazy people do use them, that's about it. If you could not deliver food, the customers would not die from hunger, they would just have to go outside to get the food. That would not be a collapse of the civilization, trust me (we have very little delivery here and the society is pretty much working still). The point of the whole state (including law enforcement) should be to allow people to live with each other and to manage limited shared resources. The reason parking tickets exist is that space on the street is a limited resource and thus needs to be regulated. Now there is an idea which may not resonate very well overseas, but many people here believe that many shared resources should be provided for free, or regulated costs, to private persons (who are seen as shareholders in the common resources), while anyone who uses them for business should compensate the rest for the fact that they make profit using these shared resources. You can see that easily when you try to start a business using your house - suddenly you have to pay much more for all the services, because you fail to be eligible for the "citizen discount" since you make profit off them. The fact that your particular profit is not very large, is really not anyone else's problem. While I agree that in this specific case, the policeman was almost surely more motivated by his own profit or some other pressure than the desire to serve the greater good, I don't see how the "it's my job" defense holds any water. edit: to clarify, I agree with Chef that the blame should not in principle be on the "delivery guy", but the "delivery party" - also if the employer pressures the employee to brake laws (even minor ones) that's highly illegal (and immoral at the same time). For the sake of the simplicity of the argument, I have always spoken about "you vs. cops", but it should be really "the delivery company vs. cops" - however it's not really a traffic department's jurisdcition to sort out the responsibility inside the company.
Delivery people include UPS, Fedex, US mail, and other parcel services as well. Don't tell me you've never seen one of them or even a taxi idle 'double parked' before.
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United States2063 Posts
Thanks for the tips so far guys, I dunno where to find the city ordinance on delivery drivers though. I guess I will have to go to the police station and ask to see some documentation or something.
Also the point about it being the employer's fault seems unjust as well. People expect a service in America. When a place says they will deliver food, generally it's within 30-60 minutes depending on how busy they are. And driver's aren't expected by the employer, the customer, or society as a whole to have to find a parking space and walk to their house. It's one of those blue law kinda things that is on the books but isn't/shouldn't really be enforced. And of course judges, lawyers, and police understand this when they order food or packages to their house. They wouldn't want you to have to park 1000 feet away and walk while the food gets colder or have to lock up the vehicle every time etc.
This is pretty common when delivering to gated communities as well. Often times a driver can't get in the gate, and has to wait for someone to open it. And then there is no parking for them inside, they have to idle. Or if no one comes to the gate then it's a huge hassle, have to call the customer and have them come out, or you have to park and find a walk in gate, etc.
It's not in societies interest to slow down commerce/business to uphold a law that shouldn't be enforced 100% of the time.
Yes, I can see if; say a house was on fire, or an old lady had a heart attack and I somehow hindered that (even though, as the picture shows, there was plenty of space), then sure I could see a ticket being valid and would be more willing to pay for it.
In this, and 99% of other situations it's just a chicken shit ticket, a racket by the parking control (not even really cops afaik) to meet quotas and make the city money (and it's usually poor people getting slammed with this).
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On May 20 2015 00:22 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 20:36 opisska wrote:On May 19 2015 19:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:On May 19 2015 18:04 opisska wrote:
Does that really give you any chance in the US? Because in my country there is no way to contest a fine solely on the grounds that you "needed to park there" - you could contest only that you were not parking wrongly (wrong call by the policeman) and even that's next to impossible to win. The fact that you did it as a part of your work would only make things worse I guess - at least many people would rather pardon some minor misbehaviour in private as opposed to someone who is "making money off it". I think the reverse argument is more important. A private person could have and would have easily found a place to park as it's no time constraint or duty to anything. The fact that it's for work, and that it's for service of a customer (speed, hot food, and get back in time for the next customer) makes it seem less personal/entitled. I wouldn't even have been here if not just doing my job. Which is often the type of thing a law enforcement person will say when giving out a ticket. There is no way I would ever do this if it wasn't required of me via my job (there wouldn't ever be a need). Also, it's not like delivery people are paid a lot of money. There are vehicle overhead costs, gas costs, insurance, car payments, etc. It seems kind of shitty to ticket these kinds of people in a society that relies on them a lot. The whole thing was so shady though. The parking control wasn't trying to do good or justice or serve the public, they just saw an opportunity to make a quota and snipe it out as quick as they could knowing that the car owner would be back in seconds. Then they sped off just as fast as they came like a thief in the night, because if they didn't, the owner would have come out and been like "lol what the fuck are you doing?" and just leave. They knew damn well the bullshit they were pulling and it's despicable, "To serve and protect", my ass. I am sorry to sound maybe rude, but the society does not rely on delivery people. Lazy people do use them, that's about it. If you could not deliver food, the customers would not die from hunger, they would just have to go outside to get the food. That would not be a collapse of the civilization, trust me (we have very little delivery here and the society is pretty much working still). The point of the whole state (including law enforcement) should be to allow people to live with each other and to manage limited shared resources. The reason parking tickets exist is that space on the street is a limited resource and thus needs to be regulated. Now there is an idea which may not resonate very well overseas, but many people here believe that many shared resources should be provided for free, or regulated costs, to private persons (who are seen as shareholders in the common resources), while anyone who uses them for business should compensate the rest for the fact that they make profit using these shared resources. You can see that easily when you try to start a business using your house - suddenly you have to pay much more for all the services, because you fail to be eligible for the "citizen discount" since you make profit off them. The fact that your particular profit is not very large, is really not anyone else's problem. While I agree that in this specific case, the policeman was almost surely more motivated by his own profit or some other pressure than the desire to serve the greater good, I don't see how the "it's my job" defense holds any water. edit: to clarify, I agree with Chef that the blame should not in principle be on the "delivery guy", but the "delivery party" - also if the employer pressures the employee to brake laws (even minor ones) that's highly illegal (and immoral at the same time). For the sake of the simplicity of the argument, I have always spoken about "you vs. cops", but it should be really "the delivery company vs. cops" - however it's not really a traffic department's jurisdcition to sort out the responsibility inside the company. Delivery people include UPS, Fedex, US mail, and other parcel services as well. Don't tell me you've never seen one of them or even a taxi idle 'double parked' before.
Of course I did and I have also managed to get a fine for one of them who was parking really stupidly and hindered the traffic by his laziness (he stopped in a lane on a narrow main 2-lane road even thought there was a free parking literaly 20 meters away) - however if it doesn't hurt me, I don't care. But that's nowhere near the point of the discussion, the fact that something "happens" doesn't legitimize it and again, I don't think that getting every single piece of whatever delivered to everywhere a couple of minutes sooner is a highly cherished value of modern humanity, so I see absolutely no problem with you getting a fine for that.
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You're pretty much shit out of luck, you stopped your car illegally, that's pretty much all there is to say about it. Don't bother mentioning that the cop had to idle in the same way, as that is not only unknowable, but pointing out something like that will not endear you to anyone...
Look at it from the cop's point of view, he's driving along, sees a car just chilling illegally in the street with the flashers on...you say you weren't blocking any traffic, but if you are idling in the right hand lane as seen in your picture you're a hazard on the road, there's just no getting around that sadly
Anything regarding UPS, Fedex, etc, is useless and irrelevant as well...question though, is your car clearly marked as a delivery vehicle (you know, with a little sign on the top or what-have-you) or does it look like a regular car?
Honestly, you have a tiny chance of getting let off/fine reduced, but the law is clear, you broke it, and there's no amount of justification that can get around that. If you roll a stop sign and a cop catches you and you say "but officer, I'm not impeding traffic/there's no one around/other people do it too", you'll just get laughed at because you have -no- legitimate excuse for doing that specific action. Most sane people would just let you off with a warning, but sometimes shit happens and you get fucked over because of the need to save a few minutes here and there 
Shitty deal, but it is what it is...personally I think a slap on the wrist would be more than appropriate here, but you just got caught in that awkward period where you're clearly doing something illegal and the ticket book is in the hand
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You leave your keys in a running vehicle? Doesn't your livelihood kind of depend on your car being there when you get back? I know you said you were only 30 feet away this time but don't you also go into apartment complexes and other scenarios where you wouldn't have a direct line of sight to your car? What if the sexy milf who ordered food also wants some of the delivery boy too, you're just gonna leave the car running?
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United States42376 Posts
You understand that you did the thing that they say you did, right? Because it's not always clear with you Charlie.
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On May 20 2015 00:46 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2015 00:22 MarlieChurphy wrote:On May 19 2015 20:36 opisska wrote:On May 19 2015 19:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:On May 19 2015 18:04 opisska wrote:
Does that really give you any chance in the US? Because in my country there is no way to contest a fine solely on the grounds that you "needed to park there" - you could contest only that you were not parking wrongly (wrong call by the policeman) and even that's next to impossible to win. The fact that you did it as a part of your work would only make things worse I guess - at least many people would rather pardon some minor misbehaviour in private as opposed to someone who is "making money off it". I think the reverse argument is more important. A private person could have and would have easily found a place to park as it's no time constraint or duty to anything. The fact that it's for work, and that it's for service of a customer (speed, hot food, and get back in time for the next customer) makes it seem less personal/entitled. I wouldn't even have been here if not just doing my job. Which is often the type of thing a law enforcement person will say when giving out a ticket. There is no way I would ever do this if it wasn't required of me via my job (there wouldn't ever be a need). Also, it's not like delivery people are paid a lot of money. There are vehicle overhead costs, gas costs, insurance, car payments, etc. It seems kind of shitty to ticket these kinds of people in a society that relies on them a lot. The whole thing was so shady though. The parking control wasn't trying to do good or justice or serve the public, they just saw an opportunity to make a quota and snipe it out as quick as they could knowing that the car owner would be back in seconds. Then they sped off just as fast as they came like a thief in the night, because if they didn't, the owner would have come out and been like "lol what the fuck are you doing?" and just leave. They knew damn well the bullshit they were pulling and it's despicable, "To serve and protect", my ass. I am sorry to sound maybe rude, but the society does not rely on delivery people. Lazy people do use them, that's about it. If you could not deliver food, the customers would not die from hunger, they would just have to go outside to get the food. That would not be a collapse of the civilization, trust me (we have very little delivery here and the society is pretty much working still). The point of the whole state (including law enforcement) should be to allow people to live with each other and to manage limited shared resources. The reason parking tickets exist is that space on the street is a limited resource and thus needs to be regulated. Now there is an idea which may not resonate very well overseas, but many people here believe that many shared resources should be provided for free, or regulated costs, to private persons (who are seen as shareholders in the common resources), while anyone who uses them for business should compensate the rest for the fact that they make profit using these shared resources. You can see that easily when you try to start a business using your house - suddenly you have to pay much more for all the services, because you fail to be eligible for the "citizen discount" since you make profit off them. The fact that your particular profit is not very large, is really not anyone else's problem. While I agree that in this specific case, the policeman was almost surely more motivated by his own profit or some other pressure than the desire to serve the greater good, I don't see how the "it's my job" defense holds any water. edit: to clarify, I agree with Chef that the blame should not in principle be on the "delivery guy", but the "delivery party" - also if the employer pressures the employee to brake laws (even minor ones) that's highly illegal (and immoral at the same time). For the sake of the simplicity of the argument, I have always spoken about "you vs. cops", but it should be really "the delivery company vs. cops" - however it's not really a traffic department's jurisdcition to sort out the responsibility inside the company. Delivery people include UPS, Fedex, US mail, and other parcel services as well. Don't tell me you've never seen one of them or even a taxi idle 'double parked' before. Of course I did and I have also managed to get a fine for one of them who was parking really stupidly and hindered the traffic by his laziness (he stopped in a lane on a narrow main 2-lane road even thought there was a free parking literaly 20 meters away) - however if it doesn't hurt me, I don't care. But that's nowhere near the point of the discussion, the fact that something "happens" doesn't legitimize it and again, I don't think that getting every single piece of whatever delivered to everywhere a couple of minutes sooner is a highly cherished value of modern humanity, so I see absolutely no problem with you getting a fine for that.
You might not think it is, but I bet it's definitely something OP's boss cherishes. Also, US culture is probably different from Czech Republic culture, people value different things.
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I don't think your letter will get your ticket thrown out, the person reading it won't care that you had to deliver some food, if you broke the law then you broke the law. Your best bet is to figure out what the rule is, what exceptions apply and present a case where you fall into one of the exceptions.I suggest your story strict to the facts and ignore facts that don't matter.
For example, I got a double parking ticket in New York, but I found that you're allowed 5 minutes for pickup/drop off. I wrote that in my online dispute and the ticket was dismissed. BTW, most delivery trucks in Manhattan are routinely ticketed. I've heard they have some sort of deal worked out where they pay a monthly fine or something, but I have no idea if that's true or not
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Hong Kong9152 Posts
Your appeal is functionally equivalent to
COME ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
which, while making me emotionally sympathetic, will do nothing to fight the ticket on the grounds you need to win: legal.
Edit: also you admit to doing it in the appeal so lol
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Do you think you could make $55 (or more) in the amount of time you will have spent trying to fight this?
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EPT
