This is my second time writing this I hope I didn't lose track of my flow too much. God dammit
Edit: Fuck I had this in my original write up but I forgot where I put it now its lost in the flow. Honestly Starladder is the most well runned western tournament I've ever played in, even if it has its problems. The tournament quality didn't increase but also didn't decrease even with its move to Bucharest so that's pretty good.
Today I made a video on this matter because it would be less time consuming for me. But I'm extremely bad at conveying things from the past, I can only properly rant when something suddenly appears on my mind, not when its forced. I also don't know why I decided to make a video with barely any sleep and when im camera shy. Well, everything I covered in the video will be talked about.
For those who didn't watch the video, this blog will cover my thoughts on TI/DAC (Majors?) versus what may now be called Minors (starladder/summit etc?). Also some other thoughts that came up as I was talking.
Right now there are major issues in practically every tournament we play offline. Before starladder there was the disaster of a tournament in Major Allstars. People may treat Major Allstars as a special case, but I really don't think it should be looked about that way. If we look at all the lans previous to that, they all had major problems. DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches, bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc), Summit 2 had extremely faulty computers (etc), and Dreamleague was LMFAO. WCA/WEC also had massive issues with ESL/Starladder being the only decent tournaments.
DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.
Most of these issues are reoccurring in tournaments with some being much harder to fix than others. Some issues might require much more financial assistance, and some may be up to Valve.
One major problem I've experienced in some lans are patches/server issues. During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;
Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.
For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.
In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.
Ok if I continue with this tone any longer I definitely wouldn't be true to myself.
Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.
During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.
You would think that of any organizer, that Starladder, with their history of having an extremely difficult time dealing with Chinese teams would understand their need for a proper translator. From my experience, playing in China is always very stressful and they usually have Xiituzi there and a group of volunteers that speak a little bit of English. How do they expect Chinese teams to be ok with having no one that speaks English look after them. They are probably being cheap and thinking that KellyMilkies is all they need for IG and that icex3 is enough for VG. There was a thread made about translations in Starladder on reddit and Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.
Player's have asked many times for private washrooms but it doesn't seem like anything can be done about it. Chinese tournaments, TI and ESL NY are the only ones with private washrooms. It's not that I think i'm hot shit and I don't want to meet the fans, I always go out there on my own terms to interact with fans. But it really sucks for the fans and myself when I'm trying to focus on the next game and I ignore/reject fans that talk to me while I'm heading to the washroom and back. Every day I would reject like 50 people and I don't want to do that.
At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.
When it comes to prize money I feel like I can trust Major tournaments to pay (though DAC hasn't paid yet). For minor tournaments it can become very stressful thinking about pay. Honestly I would be extremely worried about payment if I played at Major Allstars. The last event that didn't pay prize money was WPC 11 months ago. Overall payment certainty has been pretty good the last few years but the length of payment has been very random. This might not be the organizer's fault but Valve's but that's the point, I feel like Valve would be more eager to help Majors that they are partnered with.
Honestly if you ask me why I write these blogs, maybe in the past I would be able to answer but now I'm not really sure anymore. My original blogs were more about me, I just felt like the fans deserved to know how I feel after getting kicked from my own team. My second blog was about Marco, for that blog it was once again because I felt like my fans deserved to know what was happening with my career, because I wanted to spread awareness of shady people in DotA, and 3rd because I just wanted to fuck Marco. My last few on tournaments have been different from the rest of the blogs. I don't think anyone ever flamed me for the first two, except for my poor english. I actually feel stressed writing these blogs now not just because I'm so fucking shit at english but I feel like these blogs don't just concern me anymore and I'm not sure if I have the right to write about this since my opinion might change things up for other players. I feel like each blog gives me a new set of haters as well. Honestly everything feels very jumbled up, its no longer so simple why I write these blogs. But I know that I don't want to be one of those players that sit there and take it up the ass without saying anything. And I want to increase the notion of players speaking up for what they think is right more openly. I don't want to be a person where my organization steals most of my DH winnings (MTW) and doesn't do anything about it, nor do I want to have my stream revenue stolen without fighting for it (old Mouse Sports), and there's plenty of other shady shit that happens in the scene that aren't mentioned. Honestly I feel like the Russian scene is still getting fucked but I don't know for sure >_>.
Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.
I know this blog wasn't written in a professional tone. Hell, its definitely the blog I've raged the most in. I know that I'm a perfectionist and I sometimes don't see things from other people's perspectives. But I still don't think I'm wrong. For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching. If people are truly passionate about this game, I just don't want them to forget that, because its really easy to lose sight of that once you dive into this scene.
"I know that though I've lost my own way, I still can be saved."
On April 29 2015 22:30 greebosnabble wrote: Why don't you write the blog, but not publish it until it's a few days later and you've gotten feedback from people you trust?
The scene needs more people willing to tell it as it is, not behind a filter. Love him or hate him, EE gives you that.
Honestly if you ask me why I write these blogs, maybe in the past I would be able to answer but now I'm not really sure anymore.
Yo if fans want to support the scene/organisations they deserve to know the inner workings of various tournaments. Between ad-revenue, skins and tickets tournament organizers make huge money so at least there's a few pros willing to talk about the conditions involved.
These blogs get old, cause every time it's just EE complaining about every little thing. The tone at this point sounds like a kid complaining about all the little stuff that anyone has to deal with in their every day jobs. Someone who focuses only on the negative aspects of their job, etc.
Not saying there isn't validity to the complaints, but for me, it gets old, that's all.
On April 29 2015 22:30 greebosnabble wrote: Why don't you write the blog, but not publish it until it's a few days later and you've gotten feedback from people you trust?
The scene needs more people willing to tell it as it is, not behind a filter. Love him or hate him, EE gives you that.
No, he needs to write down relevant true statements in an organized way to accomplish a goal.
What is EE's goal for this blog? One might be to have private restrooms at events and for casters to respect players. However, I think a couple of well-phrased tweets and/or words to organizers and casters would be infinitely more effective than this blog at accomplishing this.
I think EE's actual goal for the blog is emotional catharsis since he is frustrated for a variety of reasons. But this is not the correct forum for such unfiltered complaints (one problem -- he's hurting his public image).
We need to know whats happening in the scene.Not all the detail but we still deserve to know since we sponsor all the tournaments these days by buying their hats.Not to mention that the majority of the compendium money goes in the organizers pockets instead going for production or improving the LAN or w/e.I rly enjoyed the YT vid since I could listen to it like a podcast on my way to collage.I think you should give the vids a 2nd thought and do them more often.
I feel like a lot of people in the scene don't want to face their mistakes. You run a tournament, you work with the competitors. If they don't enjoy it they will not work with you. So you can 1. talk it out with them and try to improve. 2. say you don't give a fuck and we will boycot your event. But don't start saying they are lying or looking for excuses because we don't fucking care.
And yes the standard for what a good event is should be improving EVERY time. If you are in it just to take that hat money and don't want to reinvest the $ in improving your tournaments then you will not get any money from me.
And I want to increase the notion of players speaking up for what they think is right more openly. I don't want to be a person where my organization steals most of my DH winnings (MTW) and doesn't do anything about it, nor do I want to have my stream revenue stolen without fighting for it (old Mouse Sports), and there's plenty of other shady shit that happens in the scene that aren't mentioned. Honestly I feel like the Russian scene is still getting fucked but I don't know for sure >_>.
On April 29 2015 22:55 So5low wrote: We need to know whats happening in the scene.Not all the detail but we still deserve to know since we sponsor all the tournaments these days by buying their hats.Not to mention that the majority of the compendium money goes in the organizers pockets instead going for production or improving the LAN or w/e.I rly enjoyed the YT vid since I could listen to it like a podcast on my way to collage.I think you should give the vids a 2nd thought and do them more often.
Actually the artists get majority of the money from these tourny boosting bundles and such not the organisers.
DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs.
Not a sarcasm but i really hope source 2 fix this. SC2 could choose different patches and why couldn't dota2? With the rise of major league, there will be small tournaments trying to squiggle between those tournaments and patches gonna hit them hard.
You have so much in terms of ideas, but it's like I'm reading without my glasses on :/ Kind of like me reading my own math work a day after the test "100%" I can't even tell where my answer is, but it's there You should reread your blogs and change any sentence that goes on for too long, or any sentence where you stop reading to look at it again. Anyways, gl man
I feel like one of the biggest problems with dota currently is the way tournaments are handled. It seems like the people at the top dont really care for the way tournaments are handled, and only care about the payoff of the tournaments. And so you get all these really shitty tournaments and I can imagine how frustrating it is for people really interested in competitive dota.
Before it seemed like dota tournaments were created and organized by people who loved dota for other people who loved dota and wanted to play on a competitive, serious level. However now it seems that tournaments are organized by money grubbing fucks for the most part who dont give two shits about anyone. And maybe im wrong and maybe its just the scale of dota tournaments now but I feel like a lot of these tournaments could be handled way better.
Its also wrong how the people organizing the tournaments dont communicate with anyone about the issues and they dont seek help to fix this issues that have been going on for awhile now.
And thanks EE for sharing your thoughts and opinions, it helps.
On April 29 2015 23:03 Howie_Dewitt wrote: You have so much in terms of ideas, but it's like I'm reading without my glasses on :/ Kind of like me reading my own math work a day after the test "100%" I can't even tell where my answer is, but it's there You should reread your blogs and change any sentence that goes on for too long, or any sentence where you stop reading to look at it again. Anyways, gl man
He's not a blog writer. Why don't you edit it instead of complaining?
Just wanted to let you know that I stayed up to late at night to watch the games at starladder cheering C9 on at night. Too bad you guys didn't make it to the finals, but rest assured that I throughly enjoyed all the games. Not that relevant to the blog but oh well.
Also, I recommend the Baby Steps manga / anime, very good competitive spirit IMO.
I don't see why pros don't just suck it up and get proper DDOS protection and whatnot. I mean it's like if I am required to have a car to get to work, I get a car to get to work or I don't work, it should be simple as that. You kinda need to see it from a viewers standpoint as well, some has paid money to watch you play only to have it be interrupted because some people are too lazy to protect themselves against DDOS (and getting DDOS'd should NOT be a suprise, it happens all the time). I mean it's really a bitchslap to the face of your fans if you keep letting yourself get DDOS'd so they have to wait like an hour to watch your game (which they might have paid for a ticket to watch).
I understand it's stressful for you as well, so I don't really see why it isn't taken more seriously. You also need to take into consideration that even though you are only affected by DDOS lets say once a week, a viewer might have to sit through many hours of DDOS every week, just because no pros have taken the nessecary steps to prevent DDOS.
Not to sound entitled as a viewer, but the fans are what makes everything possible.
I feel like that Thorin guy is out of line criticizing Envy about LANS he himself does not attend as an outsider of the community. I wish envy would address his literally ridiculous tweet that also does not provide a valid point.
On April 29 2015 23:10 BigO wrote: I don't see why pros don't just suck it up and get proper DDOS protection and whatnot. I mean it's like if I am required to have a car to get to work, I get a car to get to work or I don't work, it should be simple as that. You kinda need to see it from a viewers standpoint as well, some has paid money to watch you play only to have it be interrupted because some people are too lazy to protect themselves against DDOS (and getting DDOS'd should NOT be a suprise, it happens all the time). I mean it's really a bitchslap to the face of your fans if you keep letting yourself get DDOS'd so they have to wait like an hour to watch your game (which they might have paid for a ticket to watch).
I understand it's stressful for you as well, so I don't really see why it isn't taken more seriously. You also need to take into consideration that even though you are only affected by DDOS lets say once a week, a viewer might have to sit through many hours of DDOS every week, just because no pros have taken the nessecary steps to prevent DDOS.
Not to sound entitled as a viewer, but the fans are what makes everything possible.
Can you imagine people paying for some sophisticated ddos protection from the hundreds of thousands of dollars they are making from tournaments,salaries and streams ? Easier to whine about betting sites.
Actually the artists get majority of the money from these tourny boosting bundles and such not the organisers.[/QUOTE]
Im not sure you realize how much money in the form of compendiums are made.Im sure the artists get a summ but still there are alot of money left to go around.SL made ~163 000$ from compendiums alone(not taking into account the 50k+ that went into the prize pool).Lets say the artist gets 10k.and Valve take w/e they take and u pay ur staff.And thats when 25% of the compendium prize goes to the price pool of the tournament.Previous SLs only gave 10% of the compendiums sells to the prize pool.I think theres enough money to go around.But ofc these are guesses,there are no official receipts to where our money go,except for hats.
On April 29 2015 22:53 Leyra wrote: These blogs get old, cause every time it's just EE complaining about every little thing. The tone at this point sounds like a kid complaining about all the little stuff that anyone has to deal with in their every day jobs. Someone who focuses only on the negative aspects of their job, etc.
Not saying there isn't validity to the complaints, but for me, it gets old, that's all.
First off, sup Leyra. Second yeah agreed i'm sure a lot of this is true and things need to change but offering constructive feedback would be better than just complaining. The complaining gets old fast
Actually the artists get majority of the money from these tourny boosting bundles and such not the organisers.
Im not sure you realize how much money in the form of compendiums are made.Im sure the artists get a summ but still there are alot of money left to go around.SL made ~75 000$ from compendiums alone.Lets say the artist gets 10k.and Valve take w/e they take and u pay ur staff.And thats when 25% of the compendium prize goes to the price pool of the tournament.Previous SLs only gave 10% of the compendiums sells to the prize pool.I think theres enough money to go around.But ofc these are guesses,there are no official receipts to where our money go,except for hats.
iirc artists get about %80-90 of the money after prizepool and valve cuts are gone, you seem to think tournaments are swimming in money meanwhile artists are getting pocket change. Check whos actually buying houses with their profits dude :D
Im not sure you realize how much money in the form of compendiums are made.Im sure the artists get a summ but still there are alot of money left to go around.SL made ~163 000$ from compendiums alone(not taking into account the 50k+ that went into the prize pool ).Lets say the artist gets 10k.and Valve take w/e they take and u pay ur staff.And thats when 25% of the compendium prize goes to the price pool of the tournament.Previous SLs only gave 10% of the compendiums sells to the prize pool.I think theres enough money to go around.But ofc these are guesses,there are no official receipts to where our money go,except for hats.
iirc artists get about %80-90 of the money after prizepool and valve cuts are gone, you seem to think tournaments are swimming in money meanwhile artists are getting pocket change. Check whos actually buying houses with their profits dude :D
Im far from the thought that artists get "pocket change" they prolly make more than the players.But the money that are made from compendiums is actually insane not to mention stream etc.
In case you read the comments here, I have some questions to ask.
Do you or other players directly communicate with tournament organizers and admins regarding the conditions? By this I don't mean just quickly shouting something to get fixed, but instead maybe sitting down with a head admin or an organizer for a few minutes after the event is over to give your feedback in private. Maybe they do some really stupid stuff one time, but they really have no excuse if you talk with them and explain how something is not acceptable in person. I'm sure there are a bunch of people involved who don't have much experience in running an event or understanding what the players absolutely need, so they miss even some very obvious things at first. If you have tried this, can you have a proper conversation with them or do they not care about what you have to say? Maybe I am delusional and they just disappear and it's hard to do this, but I feel that if you want stuff to be improved you need to talk with the people involved directly.
Of course one problem here is that there are lots of different organizers, but I feel with the majors you are now more in a position where you can choose. You can play the majors, and then you can play at other events that you trust will be decent, whether it's ESL, SL, MLG or whatever.
When it comes to casters, do you communicate directly with them if they said something you really didn't like? I feel it would be much easier for them to understand what they did wrong if the feedback came directly and in private.
Of course improving events or the casting quality is not your responsibility, but clearly you still spend some energy thinking about both. Then it would be good to do it as efficiently as possible. As far as whether you should write blogs that are not just about your own team or something, I don't think there is anything wrong with telling about how things are but you have to be somewhat careful in how you phrase things. I'm sure there are a lot of things that can be improved in almost any tournament, or any cast or whatever, but people don't tend to react all that well if you list all sorts of bad things, especially in public. Much like it's annoying for a player to hear casters throw around some memes about a player when something important happened in a game, it's also not necessarily easy to be publicly criticized whether you are an organizer or a caster. Maybe sometimes they deserve it, but always try to consider whether you could improve the situation more by talking with them in private.
Actually the artists get majority of the money from these tourny boosting bundles and such not the organisers.
Im not sure you realize how much money in the form of compendiums are made.Im sure the artists get a summ but still there are alot of money left to go around.SL made ~163 000$ from compendiums alone(not taking into account the 50k+ that went into the prize pool ).Lets say the artist gets 10k.and Valve take w/e they take and u pay ur staff.And thats when 25% of the compendium prize goes to the price pool of the tournament.Previous SLs only gave 10% of the compendiums sells to the prize pool.I think theres enough money to go around.But ofc these are guesses,there are no official receipts to where our money go,except for hats.
iirc artists get about %80-90 of the money after prizepool and valve cuts are gone, you seem to think tournaments are swimming in money meanwhile artists are getting pocket change. Check whos actually buying houses with their profits dude :D
Im far from the thought that artists get "pocket change" they prolly make more than the players.But the money that are made from compendiums is actually insane not to mention stream etc.
And why do you think compendium money doesnt go to artist? Not sure how much they make from streams but i doubt its that substantial.
Tournaments no doubt make money but not in the amount most people think they do, far from it. Hell LD was saying the last Summit actually barely covered the costs. Although i believe this latest season will actually let them profit.
Im not sure you realize how much money in the form of compendiums are made.Im sure the artists get a summ but still there are alot of money left to go around.SL made ~75 000$ from compendiums alone.Lets say the artist gets 10k.and Valve take w/e they take and u pay ur staff.And thats when 25% of the compendium prize goes to the price pool of the tournament.Previous SLs only gave 10% of the compendiums sells to the prize pool.I think theres enough money to go around.But ofc these are guesses,there are no official receipts where our money go,except for hats.
Afaik, well known artist usually take percentage and they are usually more or less 30%. That 30% was counted after valve took their cut(for tournament bundle). I remember artist in polycount posted that they doesn't want to take less than 30% because it isn't worth their time. Some even goes for 50% because their hats are usually that drive people to buy online tickets.
Anyway most of the complain by you is just infrastructure problem where no organization want to invest. Tournaments are businesses and their customers are fans. Players are just commodity to gain fans and sponsors and with big enough pots, you could get them e.g summit 2. I might sounds mean but it's the truth. Anything else, they give zero care.
Dota players have endured worse than this e.g Maelk and Mania. It was much worse back then and e-sport has come this far where price pool and sponsor could give a career to players. Tbh, your complains to me sound like stresses from losses and it bear frustration to everything else you can't change.
I am just a dota2 fan so i don't know much about behind the scene and what's really going on besides picking up from articles to articles. You have come this far and i thought you have prepared for this when you left college. Maybe time to take a step back and think about what drive you so far? You need to find a real people to talk outside the internet, man. People that listen to your complain and give you real advices.
Good luck , EE. I really want to watch your games on summit 3 and not ended up disappointed.
Actually the artists get majority of the money from these tourny boosting bundles and such not the organisers.
Im not sure you realize how much money in the form of compendiums are made.Im sure the artists get a summ but still there are alot of money left to go around.SL made ~163 000$ from compendiums alone(not taking into account the 50k+ that went into the prize pool ).Lets say the artist gets 10k.and Valve take w/e they take and u pay ur staff.And thats when 25% of the compendium prize goes to the price pool of the tournament.Previous SLs only gave 10% of the compendiums sells to the prize pool.I think theres enough money to go around.But ofc these are guesses,there are no official receipts to where our money go,except for hats.
iirc artists get about %80-90 of the money after prizepool and valve cuts are gone, you seem to think tournaments are swimming in money meanwhile artists are getting pocket change. Check whos actually buying houses with their profits dude :D
Im far from the thought that artists get "pocket change" they prolly make more than the players.But the money that are made from compendiums is actually insane not to mention stream etc.
And why do you think compendium money doesnt go to artist? Not sure how much they make from streams but i doubt its that substantial.
Tournaments no doubt make money but not in the amount most people think they do, far from it. Hell LD was saying the last Summit actually barely covered the costs. Although i believe this latest season will actually let them profit.
I doubt that the artists take all the compendium money.As I said these are just guesses based on the compendiums sales.You cant deny that streams make money with all these ads.If they cant make profit when this amount of money that are "in play" then thats prolly poor management Id guess.
That's interesting about the TS3 being so delayed. Do the tournament organizers not provide a TS3 server for you to use on the LAN? There should be no latency when you're all next to each other. Maybe that's something tourney organizers can improve - set up a local TS3 / Vent / Mumble on the LAN for any teams who want to use it.
Skype will always be shit since it's P2P and probably doesn't even realize you're on the same LAN.
Afaik, well known artist usually take percentage and they are usually more or less 30%. That 30% was counted after valve took their cut(for tournament bundle). I remember artist in polycount posted that they doesn't want to take less than 30% because it isn't worth their time. Some even goes for 50% because their hats are usually that drive people to buy online tickets.
Anyway most of the complain by you is just infrastructure problem where no organization want to invest. Tournaments are businesses and their customers are fans. Players are just commodity to gain fans and sponsors and with big enough pots, you could get them e.g summit 2. I might sounds mean but it's the truth. Anything else, they give zero care.
Dota players have endured worse than this e.g Maelk and Mania. It was much worse back then and e-sport has come this far where price pool and sponsor could give a career to players. Tbh, your complains to me sound like stresses from losses and it bear frustration to everything else you can't change.
I am just a dota2 fan so i don't know much about behind the scene and what's really going on besides picking up from articles to articles. You have come this far and i thought you have prepared for this when you left college. Maybe time to take a step back and think about what drive you so far? You need to find a real people to talk outside the internet, man. People that listen to your complain and give you real advices.
Good luck , EE. I really want to watch your games on summit 3 and not ended up disappointed.
Sure times changed and the present state cant compare to what it was back then.But if we dont adress issues like these we cannot go forward and grow as a sport or w/e.
Afaik, well known artist usually take percentage and they are usually more or less 30%. That 30% was counted after valve took their cut(for tournament bundle). I remember artist in polycount posted that they doesn't want to take less than 30% because it isn't worth their time. Some even goes for 50% because their hats are usually that drive people to buy online tickets.
Anyway most of the complain by you is just infrastructure problem where no organization want to invest. Tournaments are businesses and their customers are fans. Players are just commodity to gain fans and sponsors and with big enough pots, you could get them e.g summit 2. I might sounds mean but it's the truth. Anything else, they give zero care.
Dota players have endured worse than this e.g Maelk and Mania. It was much worse back then and e-sport has come this far where price pool and sponsor could give a career to players. Tbh, your complains to me sound like stresses from losses and it bear frustration to everything else you can't change.
I am just a dota2 fan so i don't know much about behind the scene and what's really going on besides picking up from articles to articles. You have come this far and i thought you have prepared for this when you left college. Maybe time to take a step back and think about what drive you so far? You need to find a real people to talk outside the internet, man. People that listen to your complain and give you real advices.
Good luck , EE. I really want to watch your games on summit 3 and not ended up disappointed.
Sure times changed and the present state cant compare to what it was back then.But if we dont adress issues like these we cannot go forward and grow as a sport or w/e.
It's been five years and the only competition with perfect services is TI because valve the one that dare to spend a lot and manage it properly. Valve take no stances outside of their steam and TI competitive scene. Hence, it's "free market" and organizer can do whatever the fuck they want.
The issues will come down to basically money. EE's complaint on unable to arrive earlier on sl12 because sponsor doesn't spare them money for extra day in the hotel. Those booth complains are money. It's something we can't do shit about unless you fork out money and scream to organizer to put a % of those compendium into buying chairs/booths. But then it will still abuseable(sponsor could claim any expenses).
Now, i understand why Maelk praise Riot for their LCS despite his insult to the game itself. On the other hand, we have Valve Major League Gaming. It will be a step-up to "free market" tournaments i hope.
You make some good points but then you almost invalidate them by whining about stupid dumb bullshit.
YOU are responsible for being DDOS'd. Yeah yeah sure so is the person doing it, but if you can't fucking protect yourself then don't whine that tourney admins unpause because you and your team can't get your fucking shit together. Read Destiny's guide and stop making games a fucking JOKE for yourselves, for casters and for viewers. This constant pausing because of DDOS is what will kill Dota 2 in the long run.
And secondly it isn't up to casters to be nice to you. Waaah waaah they were saying mean things as we lost. It isn't their job to be nice. You can criticise them for a lack of knowledge and an inability to consider why a player might make a certain decision but they aren't there to consider your feelings. Holy shit fuck off if you want them to hand you a tissue and say nice things about you on a stream. They're there to cast and to entertain. This applies to tourney admins too; they aren't there to be nice and considerate. They're there to uphold and enforce rules.
I don't see how this is all "only complaning" unless you're on some kind of cliche EE hating bandwagon or if you believe sharing qualitative experience in a slightly negative way is always complaining. Tbh I didn't find this blog negative in the slightest and to me it seems like an assessment of how stuff has been happening from a determined point of view, mostly an exercise in memory, wishes and expectations. Nice read and points and gl in next tournaments EE
People are seemingly responding to this social norm that dictates you must find some meaningless nitpick that has nothing to do at all with the point of the blog and use that nitpick to make the whole blog invalid as if it made a sir, a memer or a smart person of yourself when doing this, seems just like partaking on the slow collective lynching of someone. I mean, the guy above me goes on and on about DDOS when DDOS wasn't even a point(DDOS was mentioned so EE could make ammends with Andrey, lol). If you're hating without even reading or comprehending text it shows you're here solely to hate on someone you already hated.
Also, if casters are assholes while "doing their job" people might not like it and have something to say the same way they had something to laugh at when seeing a team losing on stage. It's their job as well not to care and to man up to it, isn't it? Stop being unrealistic and recognize that good relationship between casters and players are good for both parties involved in a scene made up of the same people always. This is not like football in which you have hundreds of teams, hundreds of pro matches and tournaments and hundreds of casters, pro DotA is closely intertwined and burnt bridges hurt the overall system.
Afaik, well known artist usually take percentage and they are usually more or less 30%. That 30% was counted after valve took their cut(for tournament bundle). I remember artist in polycount posted that they doesn't want to take less than 30% because it isn't worth their time. Some even goes for 50% because their hats are usually that drive people to buy online tickets.
Anyway most of the complain by you is just infrastructure problem where no organization want to invest. Tournaments are businesses and their customers are fans. Players are just commodity to gain fans and sponsors and with big enough pots, you could get them e.g summit 2. I might sounds mean but it's the truth. Anything else, they give zero care.
Dota players have endured worse than this e.g Maelk and Mania. It was much worse back then and e-sport has come this far where price pool and sponsor could give a career to players. Tbh, your complains to me sound like stresses from losses and it bear frustration to everything else you can't change.
I am just a dota2 fan so i don't know much about behind the scene and what's really going on besides picking up from articles to articles. You have come this far and i thought you have prepared for this when you left college. Maybe time to take a step back and think about what drive you so far? You need to find a real people to talk outside the internet, man. People that listen to your complain and give you real advices.
Good luck , EE. I really want to watch your games on summit 3 and not ended up disappointed.
Sure times changed and the present state cant compare to what it was back then.But if we dont adress issues like these we cannot go forward and grow as a sport or w/e.
It's been five years and the only competition with perfect services is TI because valve the one that dare to spend a lot and manage it properly. Valve take no stances outside of their steam and TI competitive scene. Hence, it's "free market" and organizer can do whatever the fuck they want.
The issues will come down to basically money. EE's complaint on unable to arrive earlier on sl12 because sponsor doesn't spare them money for extra day in the hotel. Those booth complains are money. It's something we can't do shit about unless you fork out money and scream to organizer to put a % of those compendium into buying chairs/booths. But then it will still abuseable(sponsor could claim any expenses).
Now, i understand why Maelk praise Riot for their LCS despite his insult to the game itself. On the other hand, we have Valve Major League Gaming. It will be a step-up to "free market" tournaments i hope.
Your point is mute since EE said that the team were prepared to pay for the extra stay...And actually having some common sense about acoustics can change alot as EE said himself.Yeah the market is free but you cant expect everyone to be happy when you do the bare minimum in organization terms.
I'm definitely not a EE fan, and does not share all your views but thanks for the quality blog post and your insights about how tournament are run. They might not change everything, but that's helpful for sure.
I like your blogs. You are right, you speak for more than yourself now, but you are luckily in a position to do so. The lesser known players in old mTw and Mouz did not have the luxury of fame and fan support, but you do, so it's good that you bring up these issues, whereas other players may jeopardize their position in doing so.
It's annoying when Thorin talks about the Dota scene and stuff he doesn't know about, like this EE thing, because I've seen him then bitch about the Dota community after they say what he said was wrong. It's annoying as hell.
On April 30 2015 01:23 Procake wrote: It's annoying when Thorin talks about the Dota scene and stuff he doesn't know about, like this EE thing, because I've seen him then bitch about the Dota community after they say what he said was wrong. It's annoying as hell.
he thinks because he has a soapbox and has a "tell it like it is" personality; he can just offer whatever sort of criticism he sees fit
It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway.
I don't understand. Kelly could have rejected it and why are you mad when she did it out of her own good will knowing she might not be compensated? It happened multiple time too; I don't know whether she's dumb or her team got something back (maybe you know invited?)
Still, i was thankful for the live translation. It was much better than telephone translator and you can listen to players thought right after their matches.
I want you to know, EE, that I appreciate you so much in the scene for saying these things even if they're not true.
If people start to be satisfied with poor conditions, the scene really will become a joke, please don't listen too much to people who tell you that you should be satisfied just because people the first BW pros or the first people who went to dota lan tournaments had shitty conditions, that doesn't mean that it was OK back then nor does it mean that it is okay now.
Oh god that was formulated poorly, oh well, hope people catch my drift.
You know mumble has essentially no delay? Back in TF2 we used to run ventrillo on lan. I ran it side by side with mumble and the difference is easily noticeable.. like a full second. Everyone switched from vent/ts/whatever to mumble within a few months in that community because it is the lowest latency solution.
I appreciate the insight, but it really feels to me like EE has never ever organized anything himself... . There is just soo much unneccesary complaining in there. Sure, there are major issues that should be avoided, but please be grateful that you can play on such a stage and that people run it for you! There is a lot of work behind it and not everything can be thought of. After all, saying "we are at a stage where this and that shouldn't happen" is plain wrong. Dota has been thrown lots and lots of money within 2-3 years. That is no timescale for development! It just doesn't happen that fast. And most of the money went into TI anyways - a well run tournament with a big organization behind it. Smaller tournaments still rely on people doing a lot of work for free. And many (though thankfully not all) of the complaints from EEsama are just throwing mud in their faces... . Really, being professional also means that one can play under stressfull circumstances in unfamiliar environments, with not eeeverything running smoothly (I need to exclude technical issues like non-functional PCs though). I mean: YOU GET PAID FOR IT! Imagine a band playing bad just because their shower was too cold or the floor of the stage too soft. Sounds ridiculous to me... . Professionals should deliver and show good performance no matter what. That's what the phrase "The show must go on" stands for. And if chairs or missing leg-space makes you play bad ... well, then there is something else wrong and one should maybe adjust some mental strength. After all, everybody is playing under the same circumstances and it doesn't seem to affect all that badly.
My thought: Try to find the guy again who gets excited when going on a LAN and don't worry about the rest. Do your best and have fun. That's what fans want to see.
Dont be petty EE and dont use your starpower to press unpaid volunteers,be more humble and down to earth. You are right in some things but some of your points seems completely unreasonable in my eyes like private washroom,chair and monitor ''problems'' etc.You sound like a spoiled diva that complains about irrelevant things. The ''i m fighting for my dreams'' doesnt justifies everything.Hey i dont flame you ''i m fighting for my dreams''.In fact nobody cares about your dreams. Anyway i like you and i dont want to see you under the title of most detestable dota player.
its just another EE whine thread: "mimimi my mom didnt bag my sleeping bunny. thats why i couldnt play as good." a REAL professional, would NEVER complain about such things in public. he would reach out for the tournament hosts before the next event and ask for e.g. the "seating conditions" and try to adapt/prepare to/for it.
i remember kuroky say that he never uses mousedrivers, because you cant be sure your drivers work on lan computers. ... so if you dont know what seats will be in place for you at the tournament - guess what!? prepare for the worst. play 1-2 days a week with that conditions at home in the 2 month you prepare for the tournament. but dont complain about tournaments not having organised 50 seats that cost 500 bucks each, just to make little EE having his sleeping bunny back.
On April 30 2015 03:14 ScarPe wrote: everyone has the same conditions on lan events.
its just another EE whine thread: "mimimi my mom didnt bag my sleeping bunny. thats why i couldnt play as good." a REAL professional, would NEVER complain about such things in public. he would reach out for the tournament hosts before the next event and ask for e.g. the "seating conditions" and try to adapt/prepare to/for it.
i remember kuroky say that he never uses mousedrivers, because you cant be sure your drivers work on lan computers. ... so if you dont know what seats will be in place for you at the tournament - guess what!? prepare for the worst. play 1-2 days a week with that conditions at home in the 2 month you prepare for the tournament. but dont complain about tournaments not having organised 50 seats that cost 500 bucks each, just to make little EE having his sleeping bunny back.
Professional sports player used to have to work during off season (and some during season) with terrible travel arrangement and accommodation, but they don't any more, that's progress. When a tournament have a prize pool of 100k+, it should act differently from one with 500. If esports want to be taken seriously, it need to first act seriously.
This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.
On April 30 2015 03:25 rageoverrun wrote: This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.
The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line.
On April 30 2015 03:25 rageoverrun wrote: This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.
The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line.
He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid!
On April 30 2015 03:25 rageoverrun wrote: This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.
The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line.
He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid!
Why? That doesn't make any sense. Sure he gets to play a video game, but how is that any different from someone who loves to fish getting a job as a fisherman? Does that mean simply because the fisherman enjoys what he does he is not allowed to complain about excess regulations and being treated poorly by unions? At this point playing video games is his job and the way he earns a living, he has every right to complain about unjust treatment.
Also I'm sure you've never been in that sort of situation so how do you know how you would react? It's easy to take the high ground and look down on people without ever having been in their shoes before.
Many people may just see this as complaining or venting, but this is actually really important. Despite your feelings about EE, he is an important community member and has been for some time. He has been around from pretty much the beginning of Dota2 and has been on successful teams almost the entire time. When he speaks, although it may be borderline gibberish at times, people will listen.
These are issues that need to be brought to the light. Right now the scene is riding a wave of excitement and money that comes with being a fairly new and shiny thing. Big tournaments have giant prizepools and big dollars always bring in more viewers. The problem with this approach is that while we have all these tournaments and everyone wants to be part of the scene there is a very large lack of investment in infrastructure.
The kind of echos what people have been saying, or were saying a few months ago, about a players union. It's the same kind of idea. To have a successful scene there was to be some sort of stability, and tournaments blowing their loads on big prizepools is not sustainable. I think if we saw a reduction in prizepools organizers could put more effort into things that will keep the scene alive. This being well run tournaments, well paid and dedicated employees, and faster payouts.
The scene is still seen as a little shady. If we want to make it less so we need to build a reputation and environment that can encourage security and reliability. The issues that EE has highlighted in his blog are the exact things that organizers, or Valve should be targetting, instead of just inflating our prizepools so we can see more zeros. All this encourages is people to play for that big payout and get out.
Anyways TLDR I support this blog and people need to find solutions to take care of these issues, and the money that funds that probably comes out of prizepools.
On April 30 2015 03:25 rageoverrun wrote: This reminds me of Movie Stars that whine because they are so popular that people want to take pictures of them and they need their privacy. Similar to that situation, EE doesn't like many things that are happening in the Dota2 scene. Some understandable, some not (to me). However, EE gets to PLAY VIDEO GAMES for a living. I'm sure millions upon millions of people would give everything they have to be in that situation. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. I would gladly have a little girl yelling close to me and have no private bathroom if I got to play video games as my full time job.
The "HE PLAYS VIDEO GAMES FOR A LIVING" as a way to act like they can't complain about things is stupid. It's the equivalent of the "There are people starving in Africa so you shouldn't complain about your life" line.
He has all the rights in the world to complain, I just won't have sympathy for a professional gamer complaining about how hard things are for them. I'd love to play Dota2 all day and get paid!
Lol then get good enough to get paid to play. It's entirely different say you want to do something vs. actually putting in the work and effort to do so
On April 29 2015 22:26 EternaLEnVy wrote:DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches...
In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.
...bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc...
I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak.
Summit 2 had extremely faulty computers (etc)
Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon.
DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.
I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events.
During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;
I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.
Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.
That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.
For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.
Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.
In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.
TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.
Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.
It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.
During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.
Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem.
. ... Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.
Player's have asked many times for private washrooms but it doesn't seem like anything can be done about it.
"Hi guys, sorry can't talk now." It's a minor LAN tournament. If it was 500 fans you had to avoid, fine, but ~50?
At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.
Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.
Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.
Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate.
For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching.
A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.
TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.
Insightful as always. People are dumb and think sports stars and their ilk have it so easy, they don't see the pressure and stress that comes with it. The pressure to perform is enormous, to play at your peak you want to optomize every detail to be as comfortable as possible so there are less distractions. Easy for people to give their opinion on pros from their moms basement but in the limelight you're carrying the weight of the worlds expectations on your shoulders, as well as your teammates and your own. If you fail it could be your career on the line, especially for those below tier 1. Money doesn't fall from trees just cuz you're pro, especially as EE points out how delayed if at all the pay comes. EE brings to light the current conditions in the world of pro, not just for himself but for all. Reason for pause, good thoughts EE.
I take each of these posts less seriously than the last. And it's not the poor English. Unless EE figures out how to distinguish between legitimate problems that need to be addressed and little bitchy complaints that are his own problem, (i.e. complaining about casters doing their jobs) people will give less and less credence to his thoughts. This would be a shame because every terrible, rambling, unprofessional post he writes contain gems of truth that are alarming to learn about the pro dota 2 scene and need to be addressed. I think some of his blogs actually help determine the decisions Valve makes, and for the better. It will be a shame when his posts begin to fall on deaf ears (even more than they already do).
If you host your own local teamspeak server on the LAN then surely there will be <5ms delay, just set up a password and have it running on one of your PCs.
Thanks for the blog EE. I love your honesty, and its nice to hear about the things happening behind the scenes. You, the players have most of the power tho. Start boycotting shitty run tournaments, theier viewer count will drop without big named teams like c9 and EG. Force them to up theier standards, Or get that player union going, make tournaments that want certain teams play in theier league to sign up for some basic rules or something.
I'm basing this reply off of both reading this and watching your video - The DDoS situation is shitty and feeling like a lack of respect is shitty, and it's right that you complain about it. However, it's also about a respect thing for the fans and sponsors to both not let it drag on and to very harshly force a solution. (not to the match, but to DDoS.) I'm not an insider at all, but it looked like a lot more teams wisened up a lot faster once they were literally losing their livelyhood by not trying to protect themselves better. It's a shitty solution where there's no good solutions and it was shitty it hurt players both now and probably into the future, but I think it's warranted when you take the experience of everyone into account including viewers.
The LAN conditions situation is also crappy, and I'm glad you take the time to write about it. For as much as people hate on you and PPD for complaining or "salt" (mememememe lololol) regarding the situation of things, they always generate discussion between people that can change things, so I hope you keep writing how you feel after tournaments. Between complaints and the increased competition from 4 Majors, you might want to wait and see rather than just blanket saying that you don't want to attend a bunch of minors again like in the Vlog. There's ways to improve on what your complaints are about that aren't money involved, and I think we'll see them.
On April 30 2015 01:23 Procake wrote: It's annoying when Thorin talks about the Dota scene and stuff he doesn't know about, like this EE thing, because I've seen him then bitch about the Dota community after they say what he said was wrong. It's annoying as hell.
thorin is a gaping asshole to be honest. he just records his gaping asshole for attention on the internet and people keep giving him attention for it.
The funny thing is that Thorin just made a long video a week ago or so about "Yes men" in esports, essentially talking down on people who just live with the problems or bad behavior they see and never do or say anything about it. But now a player voicing concerns about tournament conditions, tournament integrity and stuff is "entitled". Of course it's another thing whether a blog is a good way to go about it or if every concern is valid, but as a whole taking whatever concerns you have to the organizers is definitely a good thing. Also it's important to keep in mind that it would be in the best interest of everyone that instead of players and organizers getting angry at each other, they could just say whatever they have to say and improve. For a vibrant scene it's also a slippery slope if top teams start boycotting tournaments a lot, as people probably want to see them in more than 4 LANs each year.
On April 29 2015 22:53 Leyra wrote: These blogs get old, cause every time it's just EE complaining about every little thing. The tone at this point sounds like a kid complaining about all the little stuff that anyone has to deal with in their every day jobs. Someone who focuses only on the negative aspects of their job, etc.
Not saying there isn't validity to the complaints, but for me, it gets old, that's all.
He's the player. He isn't in charge of how these tournaments are ran. I'm going to assume he has talked to the TO's directly about his issues before making this post.
On April 30 2015 00:32 Bosscelot wrote: You make some good points but then you almost invalidate them by whining about stupid dumb bullshit.
YOU are responsible for being DDOS'd. Yeah yeah sure so is the person doing it, but if you can't fucking protect yourself then don't whine that tourney admins unpause because you and your team can't get your fucking shit together. Read Destiny's guide and stop making games a fucking JOKE for yourselves, for casters and for viewers. This constant pausing because of DDOS is what will kill Dota 2 in the long run.
And secondly it isn't up to casters to be nice to you. Waaah waaah they were saying mean things as we lost. It isn't their job to be nice. You can criticise them for a lack of knowledge and an inability to consider why a player might make a certain decision but they aren't there to consider your feelings. Holy shit fuck off if you want them to hand you a tissue and say nice things about you on a stream. They're there to cast and to entertain. This applies to tourney admins too; they aren't there to be nice and considerate. They're there to uphold and enforce rules.
DDOS protection is on players, except at a LAN when its on the organizer to have their shit set up properly.
Also real sports casters don't go around shitting on teams, even if the team is bad. It's unprofessional, it looks bad on that caster, the station, and the league. They might say a team has been slumping or had a bad season but they're not going to tear a team or player a new asshole. It's not about "being nice", it's about saying unnecessary things. Everyone knows if a team is bad, no need to be ruthless about it.
It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway.
I don't understand. Kelly could have rejected it and why are you mad when she did it out of her own good will knowing she might not be compensated? It happened multiple time too; I don't know whether she's dumb or her team got something back (maybe you know invited?)
Still, i was thankful for the live translation. It was much better than telephone translator and you can listen to players thought right after their matches.
I have no idea what goes on in the background. But some people have a hard time saying no because they don't want to come off as a dick or have people dislike them. She might not have said no because not translating would be kind of punishing the fans by not letting them have an interview. She might not have said no for behind the scenes translating because then the Chinese players are being punished for not speaking the language, they might not catch a rule or a time or something important and it could be held against them. The bottom line is she shouldn't have been put in the situation in the first place. No one should have to be doing something they didn't sign up for but they feel pressured to do it.
rofl people actually signed up new accounts just so they can wall of text a bunch of quotes taken out of context. 10/10
for real though thorin thinks hes hot shit talking about a game he doesn't even understand. he seems to have forgotten he was given the boot by ems for being a racist prick. also 10/10
I'll take this because as much as I don't agree with Envy on some points nor how he's presenting them, I think he still has some good points and his intentions are to improve the scene.
On April 30 2015 05:55 titansfan wrote: I'm bored, so let's break down this post:
On April 29 2015 22:26 EternaLEnVy wrote:DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches...
In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.
I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.
...bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc...
I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak.
I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players. I've talked to numerous people in marketing in esports and using the same set ups as the pros is a big thing. Pushing for standardization not only elevates the level of play in tournaments but is also good for sponsors and thus the scene.
I think the reason why physical settings are complained about a lot is because they are the easiest thing to fix that are also the most impactful to players. I could not play dota at anywhere near 100% on the 27 inch curved monitors. That is bad for everyone--players, TOs, sponsors and viewers alike.
I feel like you're reading into envy's comments as him attacking tournaments and then taking that a bit personally. While I agree that how he presented his points is bad, I don't think this was about envy attacking tournaments. Players are partially responsible for being proactive in securing good physical settings in tournaments, but I think Envy feels like a broken record repeating these very public problems. I will say that every TO i've talked to have been very accommodating in helping players set up good physical settings (esl mlg etc). There is a communication gap between china and english speakers that make things difficult, which is why setting a universally accepted standard is useful.
Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon.
Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix with some of the biggest effects in terms of both lowering the quality of the viewing experience and lowering the quality of play. I'm assuming you don't play any video games competitively if you can't see the problem with computer lag during a tournament, but imagine playing a soccer tournament (for a living no less) where you can only use the tournament's ball and it's significantly deflated. You would definitely bring it up whenever you could.
It's hard to understand this one from a player perspective as it seems like every dota tournament should hopefully have people who play dota involved in them. If 1 pub was played on each computer I think the number of technical difficulties would be lowered to an acceptable amount.
DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.
I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events.
You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition. I think players wanting tournaments to improve is natural. And there is a reasonable amount of competition for hosting lans. Remember all the over saturation posts and multiple straight weekends of lans?
And yes, there are multiple basic requirements for having a LAN. As basic requirements they can not really be mutually exclusive.
During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;
I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.
I think creativity has less to do with it compared to the prep time put in. Ideally you want the better team winning a good % of games more than the worse team (yes not every game). Changing rules and patches mid tounament shifts that dynamic in favour of the worse team. Contrary to popular belief, C9 is the better team in the vast majority of their games. I don't think envy is referring to minor tournaments.
Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.
That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.
Tournaments already go overtime and often have scheduling problems (again, push to standardization of rules). These delays sometimes mean players on different teams won't get enough sleep. Providing as level of a playing field as possible is good for competition.
For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.
Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.
While players do have to deal with externalities as a job requirement, I don't think it's an argument for not pushing the scene forward. There are multiple tournaments in the past (sometimes present) where players can hear game defining sounds like smoke and roshan bash. I think everyone can agree that's a problem.
In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.
TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.
I agree completely with both points. The problem is that it is that bad for many lans.
Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.
It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.
Again, I would attribute this to Envy pushing for better standards but being bad at conveying ideas.
During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.
Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem.
Of course his team mates could hear her over his mic. More than that, why are you taking an issue with the fact that a pro player doesn't want additional distractions during an important elimination match. Which in reference to your last point is an unfair handicap.
. ... Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.
At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.
Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.
I'm surprised that you don't bring up how Envy talked about ddos because I thought that was his worst point by far.
I don't really know what to say about this statement. I guess Envy feels like the money isn't being distributed fairly. Which I think is probably true one way or another. For everything in life.
Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.
Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate.
I think there's a difference between casting and criticizing and willfully embarrassing a team as they lose. I won't comment on toby here because he's definitely grown from that and he's obviously one of the best dota casters but I think envy's sentiment is acceptable.
You're right though. Competitors do need to pick themselves up through adversity.
For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching.
A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.
TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.
I'm going to go ahead and say that players being passionate in tournaments and tournaments being profitable go hand in hand. I think you're both oversimplifying and misrepresenting the scene by stating that LANs are some mechanical money machine in which player emotion doesn't matter. I think that part of what compels people to watch competition is seeing people's competitive drives in action and fighting for their dreams. Of course I also recognize that tournies are a business--I'm just saying player emotion increases fan engrossment and should be part of the business plan.
So you're right, teams and tournaments should work together to create a product that is satisfactory to everyone because honestly we're all on the same boat.
Pushing for positive change in your profession should be both a respectable and expected thing. I see a lot of comments about how he's lucky to get to play video games for a living and therefore he should just take every bad thing slung at him. While partially true in that we're all lucky to get to play for a living I think it's incredibly shortsighted to not expect players to want better conditions and to overall grow their scene. While imo Envy didn't approach nor communicate some things well, I respect him trying to improve the scene a lot.
I could be wrong but my best guess is that Envy wants the scene to grow and be bigger and his blogs should be read with that perspective in mind. Not everyone is good at expressing their thoughts, but to me, Envy's intentions are crystal clear.
On April 30 2015 10:06 Aui_2000 wrote: I'll take this because as much as I don't agree with Envy on some points nor how he's presenting them, I think he still has some good points and his intentions are to improve the scene.
On April 30 2015 05:55 titansfan wrote: I'm bored, so let's break down this post:
On April 29 2015 22:26 EternaLEnVy wrote:DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches...
In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.
I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.
...bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc...
I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak.
I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players. I've talked to numerous people in marketing in esports and using the same set ups as the pros is a big thing. Pushing for standardization not only elevates the level of play in tournaments but is also good for sponsors and thus the scene.
I think the reason why physical settings are complained about a lot is because they are the easiest thing to fix that are also the most impactful to players. I could not play dota at anywhere near 100% on the 27 inch curved monitors. That is bad for everyone--players, TOs, sponsors and viewers alike.
I feel like you're reading into envy's comments as him attacking tournaments and then taking that a bit personally. While I agree that how he presented his points is bad, I don't think this was about envy attacking tournaments. Players are partially responsible for being proactive in securing good physical settings in tournaments, but I think Envy feels like a broken record repeating these very public problems. I will say that every TO i've talked to have been very accommodating in helping players set up good physical settings (esl mlg etc). There is a communication gap between china and english speakers that make things difficult, which is why setting a universally accepted standard is useful.
Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon.
Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix with some of the biggest effects in terms of both lowering the quality of the viewing experience and lowering the quality of play. I'm assuming you don't play any video games competitively if you can't see the problem with computer lag during a tournament, but imagine playing a soccer tournament (for a living no less) where you can only use the tournament's ball and it's significantly deflated. You would definitely bring it up whenever you could.
It's hard to understand this one from a player perspective as it seems like every dota tournament should hopefully have people who play dota involved in them. If 1 pub was played on each computer I think the number of technical difficulties would be lowered to an acceptable amount.
DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.
I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events.
You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition. I think players wanting tournaments to improve is natural. And there is a reasonable amount of competition for hosting lans. Remember all the over saturation posts and multiple straight weekends of lans?
And yes, there are multiple basic requirements for having a LAN. As basic requirements they can not really be mutually exclusive.
During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;
I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.
I think creativity has less to do with it compared to the prep time put in. Ideally you want the better team winning a good % of games more than the worse team (yes not every game). Changing rules and patches mid tounament shifts that dynamic in favour of the worse team. Contrary to popular belief, C9 is the better team in the vast majority of their games. I don't think envy is referring to minor tournaments.
Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.
That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.
Tournaments already go overtime and often have scheduling problems (again, push to standardization of rules). These delays sometimes mean players on different teams won't get enough sleep. Providing as level of a playing field as possible is good for competition.
For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.
Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.
While players do have to deal with externalities as a job requirement, I don't think it's an argument for not pushing the scene forward. There are multiple tournaments in the past (sometimes present) where players can hear game defining sounds like smoke and roshan bash. I think everyone can agree that's a problem.
In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.
TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.
I agree completely with both points. The problem is that it is that bad for many lans.
Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.
It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.
Again, I would attribute this to Envy pushing for better standards but being bad at conveying ideas.
During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.
Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem.
Of course his team mates could hear her over his mic. More than that, why are you taking an issue with the fact that a pro player doesn't want additional distractions during an important elimination match. Which in reference to your last point is an unfair handicap.
. ... Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.
At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.
Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.
I'm surprised that you don't bring up how Envy talked about ddos because I thought that was his worst point by far.
I don't really know what to say about this statement. I guess Envy feels like the money isn't being distributed fairly. Which I think is probably true one way or another. For everything in life.
Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.
Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate.
I think there's a difference between casting and criticizing and willfully embarrassing a team as they lose. I won't comment on toby here because he's definitely grown from that and he's obviously one of the best dota casters but I think envy's sentiment is acceptable.
You're right though. Competitors do need to pick themselves up through adversity.
For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching.
A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.
TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.
I'm going to go ahead and say that players being passionate in tournaments and tournaments being profitable go hand in hand. I think you're both oversimplifying and misrepresenting the scene by stating that LANs are some mechanical money machine in which player emotion doesn't matter. I think that part of what compels people to watch competition is seeing people's competitive drives in action and fighting for their dreams. Of course I also recognize that tournies are a business--I'm just saying player emotion increases fan engrossment and should be part of the business plan.
So you're right, teams and tournaments should work together to create a product that is satisfactory to everyone because honestly we're all on the same boat.
Pushing for positive change in your profession should be both a respectable and expected thing. I see a lot of comments about how he's lucky to get to play video games for a living and therefore he should just take every bad thing slung at him. While partially true in that we're all lucky to get to play for a living I think it's incredibly shortsighted to not expect players to want better conditions and to overall grow their scene. While imo Envy didn't approach nor communicate some things well, I respect him trying to improve the scene a lot.
I could be wrong but my best guess is that Envy wants the scene to grow and be bigger and his blogs should be read with that perspective in mind. Not everyone is good at expressing their thoughts, but to me, Envy's intentions are crystal clear.
On April 29 2015 22:53 Leyra wrote: These blogs get old, cause every time it's just EE complaining about every little thing. The tone at this point sounds like a kid complaining about all the little stuff that anyone has to deal with in their every day jobs. Someone who focuses only on the negative aspects of their job, etc.
Not saying there isn't validity to the complaints, but for me, it gets old, that's all.
Okay this is just stupid, can we not talk about ways to improve tournaments?
if its hard to remember stuff from the past, and if you were gonna keep on writing blogs, i would suggest taking like 5 minutes after each day, maybe before you go to bed, to just write down some thoughts that you had for the day.
On April 30 2015 10:06 Aui_2000 wrote: Pushing for positive change in your profession should be both a respectable and expected thing. I see a lot of comments about how he's lucky to get to play video games for a living and therefore he should just take every bad thing slung at him. While partially true in that we're all lucky to get to play for a living I think it's incredibly shortsighted to not expect players to want better conditions and to overall grow their scene.
Well said Aui. I don't think this is something that many people will fully understand, but it should ring true for anyone who is passionate about the work they do.
On April 30 2015 10:06 Aui_2000 wrote: I'll take this because as much as I don't agree with Envy on some points nor how he's presenting them, I think he still has some good points and his intentions are to improve the scene.
On April 30 2015 05:55 titansfan wrote: I'm bored, so let's break down this post:
On April 29 2015 22:26 EternaLEnVy wrote:DAC had admins that didn't play DotA sleeping during matches...
In most other competitive activities I would agree that a referee (of sorts) not ever having played the activity in question and sleeping during the competition is probably a bad thing. In DotA games however... why does it even matter? In the unlikely event an Admin is actually needed (e.g. "help our teammate's entire computer exploded and his organs all fell out") then any half-brained human being can figure out how to handle that situation. It's not like they are there to call penalties and review film.
I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.
...bad setup (no armrest chairs, curved super big monitors, tables that had 0 leg room, etc...
I hate to break it to you, but you're playing a Moba for money at a non-valve sponsored tournament. Lebron James has had to endure playing an NBA Finals game without air conditioning. You're one of the best at the video game that you are playing, but at the end of the day accommodating to specific EE comfort standards for play isn't an organizer's priority. Plus, as one of the best, you should man up and deal with it. Complaining about that stuff is weak.
I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players. I've talked to numerous people in marketing in esports and using the same set ups as the pros is a big thing. Pushing for standardization not only elevates the level of play in tournaments but is also good for sponsors and thus the scene.
I think the reason why physical settings are complained about a lot is because they are the easiest thing to fix that are also the most impactful to players. I could not play dota at anywhere near 100% on the 27 inch curved monitors. That is bad for everyone--players, TOs, sponsors and viewers alike.
I feel like you're reading into envy's comments as him attacking tournaments and then taking that a bit personally. While I agree that how he presented his points is bad, I don't think this was about envy attacking tournaments. Players are partially responsible for being proactive in securing good physical settings in tournaments, but I think Envy feels like a broken record repeating these very public problems. I will say that every TO i've talked to have been very accommodating in helping players set up good physical settings (esl mlg etc). There is a communication gap between china and english speakers that make things difficult, which is why setting a universally accepted standard is useful.
Fair complaint. Was the issue not resolved however? Did it impact the overall results? If not, then what's the big deal? It's a non-valve DotA tournament, not Wimbledon.
Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix with some of the biggest effects in terms of both lowering the quality of the viewing experience and lowering the quality of play. I'm assuming you don't play any video games competitively if you can't see the problem with computer lag during a tournament, but imagine playing a soccer tournament (for a living no less) where you can only use the tournament's ball and it's significantly deflated. You would definitely bring it up whenever you could.
It's hard to understand this one from a player perspective as it seems like every dota tournament should hopefully have people who play dota involved in them. If 1 pub was played on each computer I think the number of technical difficulties would be lowered to an acceptable amount.
DotA is now at a point where when players talk about tournaments the statement of "it wasn't that bad the computers were working" is a common defense for the tournament. That should be a basic REQUIREMENT for lans. I remember going to my first LAN, I would get so excited to finally play one on the plane. Nowadays when I attend a LAN i just hope that nothing goes terribly wrong.
I suspect a more important basic requirement to most pro players (you included?) is that these LANs have a prize pool so that they can get paid to play DotA. If there was immense competition and demand for the right to host one of these LAN tournaments between organizers, then maybe I could see your point. As it stands, these minor tournaments are going out on the competitive gaming limb to host these things in order to hopefully make a profit. There are no investors waiting in the wings vying at the opportunity to host a DotA tournament for you and other pros. I suggest you go back to just being excited to participate in a LAN again, or, if you are too above that now, focus only on attending Valve-sponsored events.
You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition. I think players wanting tournaments to improve is natural. And there is a reasonable amount of competition for hosting lans. Remember all the over saturation posts and multiple straight weekends of lans?
And yes, there are multiple basic requirements for having a LAN. As basic requirements they can not really be mutually exclusive.
During the previous Dreamleague, mid tournament there was a patch introduced that included phoenix/brood mother. DotA 2 doesn't allow for patch changes unlike DotA 1 so players actually just sit there praying that there won't be a patch or that there won't be any major bugs. Teams start having agreements where they won't pick new heroes or some shit. I actually had that agreement with VP but I forgot about it and picked phoenix to try it out. VP wasn't mad about it though since we lost D;
I half-agree. In most competitions, changing the rules mid-tournament is a no-no. On the other hand, for minor tournaments, this potentially adds to the intrigue and excitement for the audience. It also forces pros to think on their feet and make quick adjustments. I could go either way here. I think a creative captain however wouldn't mind so much.
I think creativity has less to do with it compared to the prep time put in. Ideally you want the better team winning a good % of games more than the worse team (yes not every game). Changing rules and patches mid tounament shifts that dynamic in favour of the worse team. Contrary to popular belief, C9 is the better team in the vast majority of their games. I don't think envy is referring to minor tournaments.
Servers start going down when there's a patch and the tournament gets delayed. It's very stressful playing a tournament when you know a patch is nearby. This isn't really something the tournament can fix though, its up to Valve and they have to patch at some point.
That should be fixed if tournaments are being significantly delayed. If we're talking 30 minutes to 1 hour though, I don't think that's a big deal. Again, rewards captains and teams that are creative and able to think and adjust quickly, as well as making it more exciting for the audience.
Tournaments already go overtime and often have scheduling problems (again, push to standardization of rules). These delays sometimes mean players on different teams won't get enough sleep. Providing as level of a playing field as possible is good for competition.
For me the main issue with minor tournaments is sound cancellation. So many things can actually go wrong when there isn't a proper sound cancelling booth. The problem with sound cancelling headsets which is a tournament go to is that players are forced to use a program like skype/teamspeak to communicate which has a 1-2 second delay (The chinese teams usually don't use these programs). Some headsets allow you to just turn off the sound cancelling with a button and admins don't really check for that. The sound cancelling usually isn't good enough so you can hear the casters anyway. And even with all this being fixed the sound gets broadcasted through your mic anyway so you can potentially end up hearing everything twice.
Teamspeak does not have a 1-2 second delay. Let's get that out of the way first. Skype sucks, that's a given. So it boils down to, can you actually hear the casters? If Yes, that's a problem. Next question is, can you hear the crowd, and how much? Can you only hear the crowd roaring after a big teamfight? Or can you hear them point out smoke ganks too? I don't think minor tournaments require perfect soundproofing necessarily. If you can faintly hear the crowd going wild outside the booth during or after a fight, I think that's fine audience interaction. On the other hand, if the soundproofing is so shitty that you hear the audience or casters call out "smoke gank!" every time, then yeah, valid point.
While players do have to deal with externalities as a job requirement, I don't think it's an argument for not pushing the scene forward. There are multiple tournaments in the past (sometimes present) where players can hear game defining sounds like smoke and roshan bash. I think everyone can agree that's a problem.
In some teamfights at starladder, I could hear Toby/LD and the Crowd twice. It actually becomes so difficult to play during those moments. Of course the best solution to this problem is to pay half a million or more for proper booths, but many tournaments can't afford that. What DAC did was have a shitty booth that didn't block out that much sound but it ended up blocking all the sounds in combination of a sound cancelling headset. Of course this method still forces you to use a communication program but I think that's good enough. I personally think the cheapest option is to just have the sound broadcasted in front of the stage so its much quieter on the stage for the players. I'm not sure how this would affect sound quality for the audience though but this was done at WCA and it lessened the problem a lot. What players usually do is make their mic threshold really high so it rarely picks up casters/crowd unless they are screaming. The problem with this is that you can't naturally communicate, you have to talk very loudly and some players aren't able to do that. Bone has a big problem with that as he tends to speak quietly so we often don't hear what hes saying in games.
TWICE!?!?!?!?! God forbid. You're a pro, adjust. Bone's problem sounds like just that: Bone's problem. It's a roster/personnel problem. Coach him up to speak louder, or recruit someone else if it's that big of a problem at the minor LANs. Again though, if it's so bad that you can make out the other team's ganks/smokes etc. then something should be done, but it doesn't seem like that's the case based on what you've written.
I agree completely with both points. The problem is that it is that bad for many lans.
Competitive DotA isn't a joke. Hundreds of Thousands of people watch this. There are Fans and Familys who care a lot. Some people say pros are lazy and holy fuck we are. But were always struggling, thinking about the game, our team, ourselves, and what we can do to reach our dreams. I actually get embarrassed when people tell me I'm trying hard or that I'm good at this game. I look at myself and I feel like I'm shit and that there's no way I'm trying hard enough. When I lose a tournament, the bitterness doesn't allow me to tell my team, oh hey I tried my best, there's nothing more I could have done. I don't fucking understand how organizers feel fine with the things that happens in these tournaments.
It's a video game. PewDiePie gets hundreds of thousands of viewers. That's not a valid argument. Nothing you've described so far indicates that you were unfairly handicapped at any tournament.
Again, I would attribute this to Envy pushing for better standards but being bad at conveying ideas.
During Starladder there were two games happening at once, one game is played on the main stage and the other one is played on the secondary stage. Bulba told me there was a little girl screaming near him as they are playing their elimination matches (https://twitter.com/Phillip_Aram/status/591704499510730752). This is actually insane, I don't even know what to say. Either the organizers are lazy as fuck or they are incredibly stupid.
Was she really "Screaming?" He had headphones on and is a pro player. Surely he can block out 1 little girl? Unless there's more to this story, e.g. she was revealing game-relevant information, or his teammates could only hear scream over the mic, I don't see the problem.
Of course his team mates could hear her over his mic. More than that, why are you taking an issue with the fact that a pro player doesn't want additional distractions during an important elimination match. Which in reference to your last point is an unfair handicap.
. ... Kelly was flamed for doing a bad job. But lets take a look at why her translations might not be to par. Her team just lost, shes translating for the team that beat her team, shes translating infront of a crowd, shes a manager NOT a translator, and she had no idea she was even going to translate in the first place. It's no wonder that Loda got mad because his girlfriends being used by cheap fucks who wouldn't even think of compensating people in anyway. There are translators out there that wake up at 3-5 am to help not just translate discussions but entire documents for FREE, I'm sure you would be able to find them since you use them for the ridiculous Chinese Visa troubles.
At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped. I flamed him to cyborgmatt about it when we were chilling and cyborgmatt responded "it really isn't Andrey's fault hes in an extremely stressful position and hes underpaid." Andrey I'm Sorry T_T. Honestly staff being under paid seems like the case in many events. I just feel like there's enough money in DotA and some fuckers are hogging it all. I might be wrong about that but that's my belief from these few years in DotA.
Some fuckers are hogging it all? Please elaborate. That's a rather childish blanket statement. You have no idea what the financials involved are. Organizers and investors are putting up the capital for these events, and deserve the majority of the revenue.
I'm surprised that you don't bring up how Envy talked about ddos because I thought that was his worst point by far.
I don't really know what to say about this statement. I guess Envy feels like the money isn't being distributed fairly. Which I think is probably true one way or another. For everything in life.
Now that its my second time talking about the Toby incident I realized I'm a fucking idiot for hating because that happened years ago. But what happened was Toby was laughing, and joking about how bad MTW was as they were getting eliminated from the tournament. For me this has nothing to do with comparisons with sports or even the game itself. All I see is a person is making a mockery of 5 people infront of hundreds of thousands of people about something they dedicated a year too but failed. I see someone who would ridicule their friend infront of everyone. And that's what I didn't like about it.
Casters and critics are paid to cast and criticize, as well as draw interest at times by being controversial. Like in anything else in life, the best way to respond is to man up and play better, or simply no longer participate.
I think there's a difference between casting and criticizing and willfully embarrassing a team as they lose. I won't comment on toby here because he's definitely grown from that and he's obviously one of the best dota casters but I think envy's sentiment is acceptable.
You're right though. Competitors do need to pick themselves up through adversity.
For me a LAN is an event where players are able to fight for their dreams to their fullest with hundreds of thousands of people watching.
A LAN is an event organized by one or more investors hoping to turn a profit on ad, ticket, and other miscellaneous revenue. Pro players benefit from these events to the extent they perform in the form of prize pools. Fans fund these events with their wallets, and to date, the totality of these "hundreds of thousands" have not inspired organizers of non-valve tournaments to invest more in these events. I'm not saying video game players cannot become mainstream enough to draw the BIG BIG BUCKS (if we assume that DotA merely brings in singular "big" bucks) see: League of Legends and their massive revenue stream. As it stands, I think whining in blog posts only works to your detriment, and lends credence to those who characterize you as a whiny and girlish.
TL;DR: Man up, or stop participating in events you do not consider are up to your satisfaction.
I'm going to go ahead and say that players being passionate in tournaments and tournaments being profitable go hand in hand. I think you're both oversimplifying and misrepresenting the scene by stating that LANs are some mechanical money machine in which player emotion doesn't matter. I think that part of what compels people to watch competition is seeing people's competitive drives in action and fighting for their dreams. Of course I also recognize that tournies are a business--I'm just saying player emotion increases fan engrossment and should be part of the business plan.
So you're right, teams and tournaments should work together to create a product that is satisfactory to everyone because honestly we're all on the same boat.
Pushing for positive change in your profession should be both a respectable and expected thing. I see a lot of comments about how he's lucky to get to play video games for a living and therefore he should just take every bad thing slung at him. While partially true in that we're all lucky to get to play for a living I think it's incredibly shortsighted to not expect players to want better conditions and to overall grow their scene. While imo Envy didn't approach nor communicate some things well, I respect him trying to improve the scene a lot.
I could be wrong but my best guess is that Envy wants the scene to grow and be bigger and his blogs should be read with that perspective in mind. Not everyone is good at expressing their thoughts, but to me, Envy's intentions are crystal clear.
Hi Aui! I think EE would be wise to filter his submissions through you. Suddenly, links to level-headed and reasonable-sounding EE blog posts will start popping up, and the DotA Redditors' collective heads will all explode at once in disbelief.
On April 30 2015 10:06 Aui_2000 wrote: I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit.
Oh, is that what he was asking for? It read as if he was concerned admins were not actively monitoring the games being played. I'm in favor of competent staff that can find a way to work the thermostat (or do other organizational tasks) as much as the next guy, although intimate DotA knowledge is probably not a prerequisite.
I feel like standardizing chairs, monitors, tables etc is both good for the industry and the players...
Maybe! I suspect the ideal standard varies from player to player, though. Do teams have the bargaining power to make a list of requests to tournament organizers for specific-sized equipment for their players in advance? (27 inch curved screens are quite silly, I agree.)
Again, computers having problems are one of the easiest things to fix...
I don't know enough about the specifics of the faulty computer issue. He didn't mention whether or not the issues in question were resolved prior to game results being affected. If not, then complaints are certainly well-merited.
You're right. Standards have changed. Tournaments with lower standards will be fazed out because of competition...
Sure will! Fans will make it happen with their wallets, and EE and other pros can make it happen by simply opting out of under-performers. You're right though, functional computers AND money are both basic requirements
I think creativity has less to do with it compared to the prep time put in...I don't think envy is referring to minor tournaments.
Meh. Any future Valve-sponsored tournament with big $ involved is unlikely to have a mid-tournament patch. I don't think it's the end of the world necessarily if a patch hits in the middle of a smaller tournament, at least from a fan perspective. EE seems like he stays up a lot of nights doing DotA homework though, so I imagine he isn't too pleased when the other guys who stayed up late partying instead get the benefit of a little patch chaos.
These delays sometimes mean players on different teams won't get enough sleep. Providing as level of a playing field as possible is good for competition.
I'm sure you and the other Pros have more than enough adrenaline flowing by game-time to offset that kind of stuff But yes, in a perfect world, everything runs on schedule like clockwork.
...There are multiple tournaments in the past (sometimes present) where players can hear game defining sounds like smoke and roshan bash. I think everyone can agree that's a problem.
Smoke and Rosh bashes? Yup, that's a problem.
Again, I would attribute this to Envy pushing for better standards but being bad at conveying ideas.
YOU'RE THE MAN FOR THE JOB AUI haha.
Of course his team mates could hear her over his mic. More than that, why are you taking an issue with the fact that a pro player doesn't want additional distractions during an important elimination match. Which in reference to your last point is an unfair handicap.
You're right, the girl just in the picture he linked just looks a bit too old to be "screaming" though. Very weird.
Come on now. Surely you can understand why people want to be focused on the game during a big lan.
He was indicating that avoiding "like 50 people" (so less) every day while on the way to the bathroom was a big deal. Surely it isn't that unnerving. Big tournaments will have private washrooms, and I think(?) EE can handle politely brushing off a few fans on the way to the bathroom at the smaller ones. Maybe.
I'm surprised that you don't bring up how Envy talked about ddos because I thought that was his worst point by far.
Sorry, had no idea what his ddos statement meant or referred to. "At one point I had a lot of respect for Andrey but after seeing how he was talking to players during DDOSS situations my respect dropped." Was he mad that Andrey was talking to them in general, or that he was being mean to them, or? Also weird.
I don't really know what to say about this statement. I guess Envy feels like the money isn't being distributed fairly. Which I think is probably true one way or another. For everything in life.
That's a rather bold accusation against the tournament organizers wouldn't you say? But hey, if EE wants to lead the pro DotA 2 player union movement, I'm all for it haha.
You're right though. Competitors do need to pick themselves up through adversity.
You are one cool dude.
As for the passion + business stuff, I agree. Players showing passion for their competition is awesome. I don't doubt EE is an exceptionally passionate person when it comes to DotA. It just happens to come out as whiny/childish/effeminate/etc. when he voices that passion online.
I could be wrong but my best guess is that Envy wants the scene to grow and be bigger and his blogs should be read with that perspective in mind. Not everyone is good at expressing their thoughts, but to me, Envy's intentions are crystal clear.
I may or may not have imagined this after reading your last line:
On April 30 2015 11:03 The-Dom wrote: I get the feeling titansfan simply looked at EE's statements and said "how can I best disagree with this"..
Nah, I like EE, I like tryhards. The stuff he writes comes off like total crap is all. Not going to even touch the video stuff. If he had come on and said: "Hey guys, this is a list of my experiences at the last 3/4/5 tournaments" and proceeded to humbly make suggestions for how things could improve or be more consistent going forward, nobody would complain. The emotional stuff just rubs people off the wrong way, the guy is in his 20's after all. We're not talking about Sumail here.
On April 30 2015 12:18 titansfan wrote: Hi Aui! I think EE would be wise to filter his submissions through you. Suddenly, links to level-headed and reasonable-sounding EE blog posts will start popping up, and the DotA Redditors' collective heads will all explode at once in disbelief.
honestly you just seem equally or more autistic than him so you're incapable of reading between the lines. you speak way too much from a position with no experience which just makes you look like some downy hater.
On April 30 2015 12:18 titansfan wrote: Hi Aui! I think EE would be wise to filter his submissions through you. Suddenly, links to level-headed and reasonable-sounding EE blog posts will start popping up, and the DotA Redditors' collective heads will all explode at once in disbelief.
Did someone seriously just register an account to post 2 giant walls of texts? Is this guy a starladder organizer or something, why so concerned? Your posts definitely has an air of personally been butthurt by EE's comments.
This is a blog, EE's own thoughts and opinions. It gives some insight into a recent lan that most of us probably have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. Are you saying a person's opinions are wrong? Who are you again? Were you at SL?
Personally if i had some random kid beside me when I had to play in a pro tournament for $150k doing whatever the #$%, regardless of "didn't look old enough to be screaming", I'd be concerned. But If the stuff EE brings up doesn't bother you, then great. Enjoy your future successes on lan.
People like titansfan are why we no longer have honesty in Sports or anything, only polished statements. Media like JD cherry picking lines for articles are equally as guilty.
This is a personal blog on the internet not an editorial.
On April 29 2015 22:53 Leyra wrote: These blogs get old, cause every time it's just EE complaining about every little thing. The tone at this point sounds like a kid complaining about all the little stuff that anyone has to deal with in their every day jobs. Someone who focuses only on the negative aspects of their job, etc.
Not saying there isn't validity to the complaints, but for me, it gets old, that's all.
Okay this is just stupid, can we not talk about ways to improve tournaments?
Him complaining about bad admins and sound issues is legit. Him complaining about tournaments not having the exact chair that he wants and not the table that he wants is silly and makes him sound like an entitled brat.
the funniest thing to me always is the double standard people have when it comes to esport. most dont hold esport to the same standard they do everything else and are ok with quality that is extremely low, like so low that it to be any lower you had to actively try to fuck up. DAC, which people for some odd reason liked, was so bad with _systematic_ issues over the whole event and the whole event was a fucking joke because of it. it was easily the second worst event i have ever seen with only major all stars being worse than it. i wasnt even at DAC, but if i had been there it would be even worse because they couldnt provide the bare minimum. (hint: play all games on stage). and i dont just think of esport events here but my bottom 10 of events are all filled with esport. nowhere else is incompetency so accepted as when it comes to esport events.
and as a result of that acceptance we have lans which are either decreasing or totally random in quality.
On April 30 2015 07:43 spudde123 wrote: The funny thing is that Thorin just made a long video a week ago or so about "Yes men" in esports, essentially talking down on people who just live with the problems or bad behavior they see and never do or say anything about it. But now a player voicing concerns about tournament conditions, tournament integrity and stuff is "entitled". Of course it's another thing whether a blog is a good way to go about it or if every concern is valid, but as a whole taking whatever concerns you have to the organizers is definitely a good thing.
As with Baltimore, peaceful protesting would of never made the news, and nobody would of given even a days worth of fuck.
You know why I like the competitive Dota scene? Because when we give a fuck, we usually have a pretty good say. Or at the very least are in some way part of the discussion, and THAT is when things have really been getting done lately.
Regardless of whether EE is right on the money, or just venting a few issues he's experienced, the bottom line is that he provides insight into the sights and sounds of what happens behind the scenes from a player perspective. Without people speaking out, we might not have developments such as the new majors Valve has announced so soon.
On April 30 2015 10:06 Aui_2000 wrote: I feel like criticizing someone for asking for competent admins is reaching a bit. We (EG) personally had problems with the admins at DAC because we would ask for the room temperature to be adjusted 5+ times a day and it wouldn't get done. Admins not being able to communicate with the players should be something that is addressed. I don't think there's an argument against that one. I will say that when we asked for a translator they did their best to get one and they probably had a similar understanding of the hotel temperature control as we did--that is little to none.
On April 30 2015 12:18 titansfan wrote: Nah, I like EE, I like tryhards. The stuff he writes comes off like total crap is all. Not going to even touch the video stuff. If he had come on and said: "Hey guys, this is a list of my experiences at the last 3/4/5 tournaments" and proceeded to humbly make suggestions for how things could improve or be more consistent going forward, nobody would complain. The emotional stuff just rubs people off the wrong way, the guy is in his 20's after all. We're not talking about Sumail here.
Early 20's are the perfect time to write these kind of blogs imo. I don't really expect some sensible thoughts from those guys, bar AUI seems like a exception.
Dota 2/eSports may have more money, but it is still run by amateurs. It is like a lot of it is still stuck in its grassroots, thus have a nerdy, no knowhow approach. That players still do not receive money in acceptable time, shows that eSports have not moved forward in relation to the prize money.
Tournaments needs to have good surroundings for the players, in things that matters, which means a little annuisance as possible to distract from their performances, not shielding players from fans, that of course wants to meet their favorite players. The latter should have their time and places, and by a mutual agreement from organisation to players. It would serve fans, players and all much better, and not hurt anyone, rather than the opposite.
Although it is rarely a good idea to write in affect, I understand EE doing this. Sometimes your message is more legit in affect, rather than being vapourized by time, trying to accept something that is not acceptable, conveying in a message that might be more diplomatic and constructive, it will still lose some of its dire need for attention.
Perhaps the prize money should take a dive and be put into better surroundings, better paid workers, more professionalism. I think it would be better for all, incl. viewers.
Thank you EE, I for one am extremely grateful for the time and effort you put into writing it. Putting your thoughts out there to improve the scene, even when you know it will draw out the haters, shows strong character and an appreciation for the fans who care about the state of Dota2.
I understand one of the biggest problems is that the prestige of a tournament is directly linked to the total prize money on offer. It makes total sense, bigger sums draws more hype, better teams and subsequently more revenue to organizers through all the various streams.
If you feel that your thoughts are shared amongst other players, do you think other players would be willing to sacrifice total prize pool if that meant more money was spent on equipment, facilities and proper wages for event staff?
To put it another way, do the current crop of professionals see dota2 as a cash grab which they want to capitalize on for the period of time they are on the scene, or do they have genuine concern for the long term survivability of the sport? If people do want to improve the scene, how far are we away from a properly regulated sport, with something like a regulators, transfer windows, standardization etc?
Alright so I just made that account to reply here. First of all your English doesn't seem poor at all envy don't be so harsh. Second: its only normal to think about yourself that you didn't do your best, but in the eyes from fans/audience its only normal to see that you most of the time played really well,since they probably don't understand the game as good as one of the best players or any proplayer. And third: its only normal as well to not want to interact with people before a game or immediately after one. Even if its a win you never know what could happen next. If they are true fans they will understand that. With that the only thing left to say is that I am not good at writing and that this is only my personal opinion.
I think everything I would like to say has already been said in this thread.
That being said, I think that people have no idea the pressure professional players are under (myself included) and should consider any complaints they have about tourneys through such a lens.
Also real sports casters don't go around shitting on teams, even if the team is bad. It's unprofessional, it looks bad on that caster, the station, and the league. They might say a team has been slumping or had a bad season but they're not going to tear a team or player a new asshole. It's not about "being nice", it's about saying unnecessary things. Everyone knows if a team is bad, no need to be ruthless about it.
Real sportsmen also don't insult their amateur teammates and flame them for being garbage at a game. I've seen numerous casual tennis and football games with a combination of pro & amateur players and never ever has one of the professional players talked about how garbage his teammates are even when they ruined a pass, missed a shot or made another obvious mistake. If anything they encouraged their worse amateur teammates. Not saying the point about the commentators is void, but if EE wants to improve the scene he can take a look in the mirror and start with himself, especially when regarding flaming.
Hi EE. I'm just a random guy, not a fan or a hater. I've red your blog and have some thoughts. First of all, you writing about stuff is great. It's nice to hear thoughts of pro dota players, their opinions. So I hope you keep doing that in your very honest fashion. It's awesome. My next thought is about Starladder critiscism. I have to admit, you're wright about some things. I agree 100% about interpreters - it's a must have, no questions asked. Yes, and computers/internet should work great - basic requairement. Reasonable, again, I agree. But asking for private washrooms and asking to build soundproof booths is too much for now. It can be obligatory in future for all LAN events, but as of today it is too much to ask. And my opinion is that you are a perfectionist (no offense). That's not a bad thing, but the problem is, most of us are not. If it's not perfect for you - it's deasent/tolerable. But for most of the people it can be good, great or even awesome, without being perfect. You came to DotA pro scene a bit late. So your playing conditions were pretty great. If you don't believe me, talk to some CIS dota players, like Dendi, NS, Goblak, Xboct, Lightofheaven and ask them about their first LAN's and Dota1 LAN's in general. You will learn a lot, my friend, believe me. Btw, may I remind you EE that starladder was the first Dota2 LAN event(except for TI of course) with no croud funding at the time, when teams and players played to win, to be the best, to show everyone how skilled they were and what they were capable of. And now, it's mostly about the money and that's a bad motivator in competetive scene. I am probably wrong about this, but I think money is your main motivation to play Dota, not the fact that you love the game and want to be the best.(Because you started playing Dota in 2012, after TI and 1 mill$, not before) That's all my thoughts for now. I hope you find something usefull in all of this and I hope I didn't offend you in any way - that wasn't my intention. So gl to you, try to be the best, and one day you will. P.S. How can a guy with such a negative nickname ETERNAL ENVY achieve greatness? No offense(again, sorry!) but if you are "eternaly envious" of someone, all that negative shit may influence you/your teammates. Maybe this is the reason why you are "forever second"? Sorry, no offense, but try to think about it.
Also real sports casters don't go around shitting on teams, even if the team is bad. It's unprofessional, it looks bad on that caster, the station, and the league. They might say a team has been slumping or had a bad season but they're not going to tear a team or player a new asshole. It's not about "being nice", it's about saying unnecessary things. Everyone knows if a team is bad, no need to be ruthless about it.
Real sportsmen also don't insult their amateur teammates and flame them for being garbage at a game. I've seen numerous casual tennis and football games with a combination of pro & amateur players and never ever has one of the professional players talked about how garbage his teammates are even when they ruined a pass, missed a shot or made another obvious mistake. If anything they encouraged their worse amateur teammates. Not saying the point about the commentators is void, but if EE wants to improve the scene he can take a look in the mirror and start with himself, especially when regarding flaming.
There's a huge difference between saying there's garbage teams to saying it on stream. I'm pretty sure even the garbage teams are aware that are some garbage teams even if they think they are good '-'.
EPT
I hope I didn't lose track of my flow too much. God dammit 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3LlOnzo.jpg)
