• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:05
CEST 13:05
KST 20:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20257Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced22BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time I offer completely free coaching services Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 647 users

The year we almost solved Dota

Blogs > uberxD
Post a Reply
uberxD
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
412 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-19 20:00:03
December 18 2014 15:13 GMT
#1
Of course, by ‘we’ I mean the pro players/teams. I just feel like the Dota Meta we got this year was the closest one to the ‘perfect’ metagame. EDIT and by 'solve' I mean an extremely efficent way of winning Dota matches.
What is a perfect metagame anyway? The way I see it: a metagame in which the path to victory is the most effective one. Call it push strategy, call it face rush strategy or even call it boring (I like more calling it a perfect execution of Dota). It won games, and that my friends, it’s everything. A lot of this magnificent metagame can be awarded, IMHO to Vici Gaming and Evil Genuises, geniuses indeed. Of course, we can’t let the TI4 champion, Newbee, out of the mention, since they showed an almost perfect gameplay during the finals against Vici Gaming. Granted, Vici did not perform as expected during the match.
Life is not fair, and a Dota match is no exception. A football (soccer) saying goes ‘the matches are not deserved, they are won’… you can apply the same concept to what happened to Dota this year.
Dota is a very complex game, but when you explain how to win a Dota game to a friend that doesn’t know the game, you say: “Well you have to destroy the enemy Ancient, that thing in the middle of their base”.
Dota can be a marvelously simple, yet complex game.
Teams understood that, yes some better than others (Na’vi, Alliance in the west lost their once ‘two horse race’ spot), and started to focus on how to win the game. Offlane Jakiro, all-mighty Death Prophets, tempo controller Brewmaster and buildings (and heroes) wrecker Lycans were all around the place. Not only heroes; the way of playing a match was also very, very different from two years ago. Objective Dota become the norm, because winning is the norm, because money is in the line (with a pretty uncomfortable payment delay).
Dota advanced in 2014; the metagame was a sing of it. Icefrog noticed this and introduced changes, radical changes, with the hope of letting the solution to Dota slip away from the players as water sneaks through the fingers.
Did it work? Will it work? Our dear players and team will let us know.
<-- occasionally in English - @uberdota
harodihg
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
Japan1344 Posts
December 18 2014 15:42 GMT
#2
I sort of disagree. I think that the evidence for this not being true can be seen in the updates - a lot of the time that the 'meta' shifts it is a result of a hero getting only slightly buffed and becoming a flavor hero making people practice it en masse and as a result heroes that play well against it also come into fashion which leads to heroes against those heroes getting popular and so on. I feel like as we get closer to 'solving' the game we'll start seeing more and more drastic and easily observed changes. Like if Void suddenly got a skill removed I think it would be fair to say "Holy shit that hero was probably OP because of that huge nerf", but with how things are currently he can lose like 5-10 movespeed and suddenly wouldn't be picked at all for example.

While I agree that radical changes are made to 'spice things up' and keep players from reaching a stagnant point in the game - I think that what you're talking about is a 'stagnant' point not a 'solving' of the game.
Agh's ult sniper: Sniper locks eyes with target unit, immobilizing them in horror as he turns the gun on himself. Channeled, lasts 5 seconds.
Steveling
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Greece10806 Posts
December 18 2014 15:59 GMT
#3
I solved doto ages ago.
Shoulda asked me.
My dick has shrunk to the point where it looks like I have 3 balls.
Hoenicker
Profile Joined February 2012
243 Posts
December 18 2014 16:12 GMT
#4
On December 19 2014 00:59 Steveling wrote:
I solved doto ages ago.
Shoulda asked me.


plz be my mentor.
uberxD
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
412 Posts
December 18 2014 18:45 GMT
#5
On December 19 2014 00:42 harodihg wrote:
While I agree that radical changes are made to 'spice things up' and keep players from reaching a stagnant point in the game - I think that what you're talking about is a 'stagnant' point not a 'solving' of the game.


Different opinions can result in better discussions, glad to know you think different. Maybe the word 'solved' is not the best approach.
Stagnant makes me feel like teams are being lazy, that's why I used 'solve'. Teams have found what wins the more efficent way. You can say that happens every patch because of the top picks and ban heroes, but in the last patches there were not only nerfs and buffs to heroes: big changes in the gameplay (creep balance, map changes and bounties) are for me the signal that the game needed some change. Not just adjustments.

TY for replying
<-- occasionally in English - @uberdota
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
December 18 2014 20:56 GMT
#6
Dota being solved is great and all, but with no passion from the players it doesn't mean a whole lot.
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
harodihg
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
Japan1344 Posts
December 18 2014 21:20 GMT
#7
On December 19 2014 03:45 uberxD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2014 00:42 harodihg wrote:
While I agree that radical changes are made to 'spice things up' and keep players from reaching a stagnant point in the game - I think that what you're talking about is a 'stagnant' point not a 'solving' of the game.


Different opinions can result in better discussions, glad to know you think different. Maybe the word 'solved' is not the best approach.
Stagnant makes me feel like teams are being lazy, that's why I used 'solve'. Teams have found what wins the more efficent way. You can say that happens every patch because of the top picks and ban heroes, but in the last patches there were not only nerfs and buffs to heroes: big changes in the gameplay (creep balance, map changes and bounties) are for me the signal that the game needed some change. Not just adjustments.

TY for replying


It isn't solved and on some level it is due to laziness which goes hand in hand with complacency.
Agh's ult sniper: Sniper locks eyes with target unit, immobilizing them in horror as he turns the gun on himself. Channeled, lasts 5 seconds.
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
December 19 2014 12:50 GMT
#8
this year is not 2010, sorry
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
SFDuality
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1318 Posts
December 19 2014 14:37 GMT
#9
Dota should never be solvable. Strategies should keep evolving and shifting as new things are tried, as some succeed and some fail. If it's solved, it becomes stagnant and it dies.
BongChambers
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada591 Posts
December 19 2014 15:57 GMT
#10
lol dota isnt some math puzzle that people can mindlessly say 2 + 2 = 4 and not be called an idiot by the majority of the worlds population. its a game without limits or boundaries, things that people have said will never change or the game will be ruined/broken haven been changed multiple times. some of these changes are more suitable for some while others disagree with them or dont enjoy them as much.

whats fun about dota is that there are different 'feels' or seasons imo in which the game takes on a distinct favor towards a set of hero's which constantly changes after some time in the limelight. this is normally due to patches and obviously pro player popularity that determines which hero's are picked more often. dota will never be "balanced" neither will LoL or SC2 and as such you could say "we" will never "solve" dota or ever even come "close" to it.

dota is a sandbox, not some math equation
420
Hoenicker
Profile Joined February 2012
243 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-19 19:53:12
December 19 2014 19:52 GMT
#11
On December 20 2014 00:57 BongChambers wrote:
lol dota isnt some math puzzle that people can mindlessly say 2 + 2 = 4 and not be called an idiot by the majority of the worlds population. its a game without limits or boundaries, things that people have said will never change or the game will be ruined/broken haven been changed multiple times. some of these changes are more suitable for some while others disagree with them or dont enjoy them as much.

whats fun about dota is that there are different 'feels' or seasons imo in which the game takes on a distinct favor towards a set of hero's which constantly changes after some time in the limelight. this is normally due to patches and obviously pro player popularity that determines which hero's are picked more often. dota will never be "balanced" neither will LoL or SC2 and as such you could say "we" will never "solve" dota or ever even come "close" to it.

dota is a sandbox, not some math equation


Say that to the guy who coded how heroes take damage..

Edit: Like the universe, there is an equation which describes everything.
uberxD
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
412 Posts
December 19 2014 19:59 GMT
#12
On December 20 2014 00:57 BongChambers wrote:
lol dota isnt some math puzzle that people can mindlessly say 2 + 2 = 4 and not be called an idiot by the majority of the worlds population. its a game without limits or boundaries, things that people have said will never change or the game will be ruined/broken haven been changed multiple times. some of these changes are more suitable for some while others disagree with them or dont enjoy them as much.

whats fun about dota is that there are different 'feels' or seasons imo in which the game takes on a distinct favor towards a set of hero's which constantly changes after some time in the limelight. this is normally due to patches and obviously pro player popularity that determines which hero's are picked more often. dota will never be "balanced" neither will LoL or SC2 and as such you could say "we" will never "solve" dota or ever even come "close" to it.

dota is a sandbox, not some math equation


Please excuse me if my metaphor is not clear: obviously Dota can't be solved as football can't be solved, for example.
By sovle, I mean that it feels like pros found the most efficent way to win Dota, which is why I think we have the metagame and the playstyle we have nowadays.
I belive Icefrog has introduced big changes to Dota, not only hero buffs/nerfs, because he sees this almost 'solved' (or 'efficent) way of playing Dota.

I hope I explained myself better.
<-- occasionally in English - @uberdota
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6230 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-21 23:00:39
December 21 2014 22:59 GMT
#13
I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say.

Also solving games is bad, or at least solved games are bad for competition. It means there's no variation possible because the optimal path is known. I assume that's not what you're glad about, but I really can't tell.
NIJ
Profile Joined March 2010
1012 Posts
December 24 2014 21:22 GMT
#14
Solved games are something like tic tac toe or checkers. I wouldn't call chess a solved game. So Dota is nowhere near solved. But I get what you mean op. Random games aren't that entertaining and its much more fun to watxh players reaching for that apex gameplay (while not actually being there). Throwing radical changes in to spice things up may keep some from not getting bored fromndoing the same thing, but its turning me off frankly. If chess can maintain it why nit Dota? We should be looking to polish the game with every patch not throw the baby with the bathtub just to hype up the crowd IMO. /end rant
Act of thinking logically cannot possibly be natural to the human mind. If it were, then mathematics would be everybody's easiest course at school and our species would not have taken several millennia to figure out the scientific method -NDT
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Spirit vs GeraldLIVE!
Clem vs Krystianer
uThermal vs SKillous
Reynor vs MaNa
Lambo vs TBD
ComeBackTV 1069
RotterdaM1043
IndyStarCraft 456
CranKy Ducklings141
Rex136
3DClanTV 93
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1043
IndyStarCraft 456
Rex 136
ProTech62
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 9964
Hyuk 4191
Hyun 1029
Barracks 768
firebathero 663
Mini 554
BeSt 522
Larva 476
Britney 396
EffOrt 349
[ Show more ]
Stork 274
Last 168
Noble 100
Soulkey 94
ZerO 91
sorry 87
Free 48
zelot 44
scan(afreeca) 31
Sacsri 29
Shinee 25
Sharp 24
soO 24
sSak 20
Rush 16
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
NaDa 15
Movie 14
yabsab 11
Bale 5
Icarus 2
Dota 2
XcaliburYe535
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K439
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor248
Other Games
gofns12578
Beastyqt613
B2W.Neo543
DeMusliM126
SortOf72
QueenE24
ZerO(Twitch)15
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH346
• tFFMrPink 7
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3378
• WagamamaTV505
• lizZardDota2246
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2h 55m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6h 55m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 22h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.