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On November 05 2014 11:09 Ack1027 wrote:This is an aside from the topic and I realize you're joking but actually DucK's strong opinions about items are a welcome sight where literally all the other opinions about items expressed are from A) people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about, B) people who just regurgitate what they've internalized as safe or standard, C) people who think what pros do for items is generally infallible. Edit: I forgot D) people who say their MMR and defend their item builds. I come from pretty much the opposite school of thought as DucK and tho until now I've never discussed or publicly stated it, some of his builds [ ok prolly some not entirely his own ] have made me reconsider and try it out and I've liked the outcome.
Tbh my past week of casual ember games I've followed the chain build and it's pretty powerful. You don't have to commit and you have good damage burst once every 8 seconds. Kinda like how you play tiny except safer and less dmg. It's time to attempt the shield build though
day 2 game is out:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1005018639
more thoughts on the main fundamental post
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Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
On November 05 2014 13:29 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 11:09 Ack1027 wrote:On November 05 2014 00:26 Comeh wrote:Build drums out of spit for DucK + Show Spoiler +as like 90% of his posts are about how bad drums are This is an aside from the topic and I realize you're joking but actually DucK's strong opinions about items are a welcome sight where literally all the other opinions about items expressed are from A) people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about, B) people who just regurgitate what they've internalized as safe or standard, C) people who think what pros do for items is generally infallible. Edit: I forgot D) people who say their MMR and defend their item builds. I come from pretty much the opposite school of thought as DucK and tho until now I've never discussed or publicly stated it, some of his builds [ ok prolly some not entirely his own ] have made me reconsider and try it out and I've liked the outcome. Tbh my past week of casual ember games I've followed the chain build and it's pretty powerful. You don't have to commit and you have good damage burst once every 8 seconds. Kinda like how you play tiny except safer and less dmg. It's time to attempt the shield build though day 2 game is out: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1005018639more thoughts on the main fundamental post
Basicly i use the same skill build expect if im mid vs range hero dat dishes a lot of physical dmg (sniper mid ) so i do the 2-1-2 build where i can use my sleight of fist to farm or just to harras sniper. Basicly its very situational but 2-0-2 opening is quite allright.
EDIT: btw did someone tried the item build i saw from mr.singsing with eyeofskadi rush instead of bfury?
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On November 05 2014 15:48 Valhalla44 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 13:29 evanthebouncy! wrote:On November 05 2014 11:09 Ack1027 wrote:On November 05 2014 00:26 Comeh wrote:Build drums out of spit for DucK + Show Spoiler +as like 90% of his posts are about how bad drums are This is an aside from the topic and I realize you're joking but actually DucK's strong opinions about items are a welcome sight where literally all the other opinions about items expressed are from A) people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about, B) people who just regurgitate what they've internalized as safe or standard, C) people who think what pros do for items is generally infallible. Edit: I forgot D) people who say their MMR and defend their item builds. I come from pretty much the opposite school of thought as DucK and tho until now I've never discussed or publicly stated it, some of his builds [ ok prolly some not entirely his own ] have made me reconsider and try it out and I've liked the outcome. Tbh my past week of casual ember games I've followed the chain build and it's pretty powerful. You don't have to commit and you have good damage burst once every 8 seconds. Kinda like how you play tiny except safer and less dmg. It's time to attempt the shield build though day 2 game is out: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1005018639more thoughts on the main fundamental post Basicly i use the same skill build expect if im mid vs range hero dat dishes a lot of physical dmg (sniper mid ) so i do the 2-1-2 build where i can use my sleight of fist to farm or just to harras sniper. Basicly its very situational but 2-0-2 opening is quite allright. EDIT: btw did someone tried the item build i saw from mr.singsing with eyeofskadi rush instead of bfury?
I saw that build although I didn't watch the game yet (temporarily deleted dota2 while I do exams). Skadi doesn't make much sense to me though, although of course I'd have to see the game to know why he used it. Ember doesn't need stats unless he's manfighting, but he's not much of a manfighting hero, nor does he need to be. Only good thing about skadi for him is the slow on attack, but even then I don't think it's worth it.
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Apparently the shield/chain build is pretty good. You just use remnant instead of SoF to set up your chains and just hack people to death. I'm liking it quite a lot. The maxed shield makes you actually durable, along with a bracer it is hard for them to kill you. With your mobility on the remnant you actually can avoid heavy physical dps (which are not that heavy in early game anyways)
I think my ability increased a lot simply due to having a better fundamentals in last hitting. I was able to get richer faster, and have more level/items under my resource when I do choose to fight, it makes a huge difference.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1006287423
My only 2 death is from doom's solo kill with DOOM, life's harsh when you first pick ember
so far i'm 15 - 19 with ember now haha, it's an improvement from 1 - 9 that I started off with
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Shield is probably the better build, especially if you have a 3-4x big camp stack ready when you hit 7.
4/2/0/1 is still fun but you really need to secure the sof -> chains -> 3x ult kill and then go roam with your spammable 4/4
Maxing shield is also less mana intensive so skipping drums doesn't feel as bad midgame
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http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1006856684
i lost. orchid so strong.
I had 2 divines but i lost them all xD
I'm not quite certain what's a "gg" late game setup either. This game I had 2 bfury 1 dead 2 divine.
Not quite sure if that's optimal or not. Then again all their heros are beefy as hell so I don't know.
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On November 06 2014 10:19 evanthebouncy! wrote:http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1006856684i lost. orchid so strong. I had 2 divines but i lost them all xD I'm not quite certain what's a "gg" late game setup either. This game I had 2 bfury 1 dead 2 divine. Not quite sure if that's optimal or not. Then again all their heros are beefy as hell so I don't know.
Idk if buying divines is a good idea on a hero that will die in 1 disable. Unless you're like ridiculously ahead.
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Late game there's nothing else to buy really, probably could have gotten a BKB vs the orchid once you saw that building but otherwise rapier's not bad.
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I've been in the same boat as you. I had like 30% winrate when the hero was new. I didn't want to learn him, because everyone picked him or terrorblade and just farmed mmr with them. He felt so overpowered to play against, I just left him alone.
Then at and around Ti4 I started watching ferrari play the hero, and I felt that I wanted to get better at the hero.
4 months later I'm at 65-70% winrate and pretty much love the hero. Dodging everything from chrono to black holes with remnant is so amazing. Quickcast and remnants rewards reactions like nothing else.
My dream is that storms ultimate one day will get embers ultimate cast point.
On the bright side, this hero can do everything. From killing everyone in ganks to lategame carrying. You're pretty weak to focus, so you have to play smart and use good positioning. Most of the hero is mechanics, so you'll get a lot better in general at dota by playing him.
On November 06 2014 11:13 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 10:19 evanthebouncy! wrote:http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1006856684i lost. orchid so strong. I had 2 divines but i lost them all xD I'm not quite certain what's a "gg" late game setup either. This game I had 2 bfury 1 dead 2 divine. Not quite sure if that's optimal or not. Then again all their heros are beefy as hell so I don't know. Idk if buying divines is a good idea on a hero that will die in 1 disable. Unless you're like ridiculously ahead.
Sometimes desperate measures are required.
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On November 06 2014 12:59 kaztah wrote:I've been in the same boat as you. I had like 30% winrate when the hero was new. I didn't want to learn him, because everyone picked him or terrorblade and just farmed mmr with them. He felt so overpowered to play against, I just left him alone. Then at and around Ti4 I started watching ferrari play the hero, and I felt that I wanted to get better at the hero. 4 months later I'm at 65-70% winrate and pretty much love the hero. Dodging everything from chrono to black holes with remnant is so amazing. Quickcast and remnants rewards reactions like nothing else. My dream is that storms ultimate one day will get embers ultimate cast point. On the bright side, this hero can do everything. From killing everyone in ganks to lategame carrying. You're pretty weak to focus, so you have to play smart and use good positioning. Most of the hero is mechanics, so you'll get a lot better in general at dota by playing him. Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 11:13 hifriend wrote:On November 06 2014 10:19 evanthebouncy! wrote:http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1006856684i lost. orchid so strong. I had 2 divines but i lost them all xD I'm not quite certain what's a "gg" late game setup either. This game I had 2 bfury 1 dead 2 divine. Not quite sure if that's optimal or not. Then again all their heros are beefy as hell so I don't know. Idk if buying divines is a good idea on a hero that will die in 1 disable. Unless you're like ridiculously ahead. Sometimes desperate measures are required.
+ Show Spoiler [there's always this clip anyways] +
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Combinations of BF and daed do nearly as much as divine stacking and are a lot safer. 3BF 2daed travels or something is plenty of DPS in most cases. Against tons of beefy melees and.or minions like that game, add more BF; if they're naturally spreading, add more crit. It's worth considering Linkens/BKB as a final slot if they have stuff that can catch you out.
I mean there's times when divines are appropriate, but it's a hail-Mary just like for gyro. Ember doesn't really want them as part of his standard progression because he drops them too easily.
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On November 06 2014 17:14 Belisarius wrote:
Combinations of BF and daed do nearly as much as divine stacking and are a lot safer. 3BF 2daed travels or something is plenty of DPS in most cases. Against tons of beefy melees and.or minions like that game, add more BF; if they're naturally spreading, add more crit. It's worth considering Linkens/BKB as a final slot if they have stuff that can catch you out.
I mean there's times when divines are appropriate, but it's a hail-Mary just like for gyro. Ember doesn't really want them as part of his standard progression because he drops them too easily.
I would definitely not get them before getting 6-slotted with BF and daed, but if you ever get enough cash for a divine and have buyback and haven't been dying much at all then it's not a bad idea at all.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
IMO divine fits better on kunkka as you can x-mark the spot blink into a hit and still x mark works even if u are silenced while ember just can't return to his remnant spot if he's silenced so he atleast needs bkb or maybe if he's snowballing hard.
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On November 06 2014 18:20 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 17:14 Belisarius wrote:
Combinations of BF and daed do nearly as much as divine stacking and are a lot safer. 3BF 2daed travels or something is plenty of DPS in most cases. Against tons of beefy melees and.or minions like that game, add more BF; if they're naturally spreading, add more crit. It's worth considering Linkens/BKB as a final slot if they have stuff that can catch you out.
I mean there's times when divines are appropriate, but it's a hail-Mary just like for gyro. Ember doesn't really want them as part of his standard progression because he drops them too easily. I would definitely not get them before getting 6-slotted with BF and daed, but if you ever get enough cash for a divine and have buyback and haven't been dying much at all then it's not a bad idea at all.
Buyback really doesn't matter that much when you've just fed them a rapier...
It does add to his damage as a 6th slot. That's fine. Losing the game because your glass cannon got caught out is not fine, especially when you're otherwise winning and a safer build would have done the job.
Imo, only heroes named dusa should plan to get a rapier unless the game is lost without it.
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You don't need rapier on him, unless you are far behind. It isn't that easy to catch an ember after sof that has a safety remnant anyway. 2nd daed as 5th item is fine, unless you need safety items.
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The Killer Instinct
I will now work on the next part of training. The precise calculation of ember's solo kill potentials.
When i first played sandking, I had done something similar, and it boils down to at level 7, with 310 mana, you can kill anyone with <800HP. And at level 11, you can kill anyone with <1000 HP. The intent here is to do the same calculation with ember spirit, make some assumptions, and get a rule of thumb number at each level.
With these numerics, I will then play a few games, attempting to locate and destroy heros with less than the kill threshold HP, and I will keep trying to kill hero in a calculated manner, only attacking if I can be absolutely certain I can get a kill. This will necessarily rule out initiations, which I won't be practicing yet, and limit my focus to head hunting.
I will get back to you after I do a bot game and collect some data.
After a bot game:
I must say I am not at all impressed by his damage output.
At least in a short burst, the chain/fist build at level 6 has roughly 550 damage after reduction, assuming you land a triple remnant burst, and 2 auto attacks. I don't want to do the shield build since it might take a while for damage to set in, making things more volatile. I will do some calculation on the shield build soon.
But so far we'll go with the threshold of 550 HP.
Without ult, the pure chain + SoF(maxed) is roughly 350 damage.
Now let's play some real games. We will asap reach level 6 or 7 and go into full time ganking mode, farming only when out of mana or close to a big item. Keep in mind at all times that
550 hp / 350 hp
is the threshold.
+ Show Spoiler [games of day 5] +http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1011126522a fully retarded game. Chain + SoF highly depends on if your teammates has enough balls to go in or not. Turns out my entire team is made of pussies and just stood around when I always chained up people. Will have to re-do the whole thing with shield build it seems... the damage calculation will be difficult.
+ Show Spoiler [games of day 6 - 10] +
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Ember spirit is pretty much my best hero, I've played like 80 games with him or something and have I think at least a 60% win rate with him. My mmr is around 4300.
Most of the time if you want to be successful with him you either need to focus on farming your lane, or ganking other lanes. He can be played either way, but you kind of have to be successful because he is very item dependent in the later stages of the game. The good news is that he is all about magic early on and is very skill based.
I mostly play him mid, but if you play safe lane that can work too I just will swap up my item build slightly. For mid I almost always go tangos/shield/2-3 branches. I have experimented getting a PMS and 2 tangos pooled to me, and even an orb of venom at times but don't worry about that for now. I almost always max out shield then chains, there are very few times where you need your sleight of fist early on. Lv 2 chains doubles the duration of lv 1, Lv 3 chains is double the dps upgrade over lv 2, and lv 4 a +1 sec duration upgrade over 3, so now a days I will get at least 3 points in chains before I get 1 in sleight of fist, unless it guarantees a kill. Just get 1 point in your ult when you hit 6, max out all your other skills before you put lvs 2-3 into your ult.
Item wise, you want to be grabbing your bottle first, then phase boots, then drums. Don't try to gank without at least a bottle, brown boots, and level 6. Any type of slow/disable pretty much guarantees you'll get a kill on someone with flameguard, it's dps in the early game is pretty legit. Your ult + chains means you can chase and lock down anyone.
Build into a battlefury asap. I generally finish perseverance into damage items since ember needs lots of mana for his spells early on (hence the usefullness of a bottle), but if you have lots of support healing and giving you mana then sometimes you can go for the claymore first. Try to get the battlefury by 22 min, if you can you are in a decent position and have been getting some kills or farming efficiently. After bfury get Daedalus into 2 more bfuries. Sometimes you can grab 2 bfury and a 2nd crit, it goes to preference. Some games you have to get a bkb after your crysalis or daedalus, if the enemy team has lots of disables this may be best. In team fights stay back and hit ppl with your fists, early on you can be a bit more agressive but you are suppose to be a very elusive hero. Stack items, stack kills, stack wins.
edit: I've seen other builds on him, such as rushing boots of travel and going for skadi/manta etc. Don't worry about those, go for the basics first and move from there once you have success and feel comfortable. BoT rush may be vaible over bottle in lane because you can leave a remnant and immediately teleport back, but I would only do that if you are getting free farm in lane. Remember you still have a bit of downtime from the fountain heal.
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Playing against nature's prophet and tinker, BoT is so excellent for defending the split push. Combine that with the remnants which cut down trees and you can chase tinker into wherever he blinks, or burn down NP's tree defence that he will try to TP out of.
In other situations I generally wouldn't bother, phase boots are excellent.
I've been playing a fair amount without drums and it helps greatly for accelerating your BF acquisition. It does make it slightly harder to manmode in early team-fights, so it depends a bit on your play-style and the other team's composition. If you're going to be ganking a lot, drums are pretty decent.
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Woah you reached D+ on iCCup?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
haha im only 20-10 on ember. I have problem with closing games with ember if i'm not snowballing.
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EPT
