• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:29
CET 12:29
KST 20:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview0TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation10Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time?
Tourneys
RSL S3 Round of 16 Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion Terran 1:35 12 Gas Optimization BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1825 users

MtG and SC2 - Deck types and game plans - I

Blogs > bertu
Post a Reply
bertu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil871 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 23:29:08
October 30 2013 22:07 GMT
#1
Starcraft and magic:the gathering ("mtg") share a great ammount of similarities. With both games being about hidden information, resource management and assymetrical balance as core components, it's easy to draw parallels between game mechanics (the 3 races component of the original starcraft were based in the 5 color scheme of mtg, according to one of the original developers).

For instance, mining is essentialy drawing cards (increasing the amount of potential stuff you can have access to in the future), production facilities are lands (how fast can you convert this potential stuff into actual stuff), and life points are the game clock.

What is surprising to me, is how "game plans" can be similar between the games as well.

[Please reference to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=433514]

In mtg, your deck is set before sitting on the table. In starcraft, the game plan is more fluid, but a lot of decisions and premisses are still made before you can gather any ammount of useful information about the opponent.

Because of that, I think it's possibile to compare starcraft "game plans" to magic:the gathering deck constructed archetypes (aggro, control, aggro-control and combo). Those archetypes are never definitive, but represent different points in a spectrum.

By doing this, hopefully I can apply my 15+ years of experience in competitive mtg mind-set to decision making in starcraft. Obviously, this is just a fun thought exercise. Examples will be loose. The goal is to help think and maybe better understand starcraft.


CONTROL AND "MACRO".

In mtg, control decks win by figuring out a way not to die to the most common aggressive strategies in the metagame, while gradually building card advantage (ie, having access to more cards than your opponent, or surviving until a stage of the game where you can play cards that trade unevenly). The kill card itself inconsequential (old mono blue decks would kill with nothing but lands). The game is won simply when the opponent's resources are depleted ("runs out of gas"), but yours are not, and still alive.

The classic example would be the UW or UB decks with cheap counterspell, some spot removal, mass removal, card drawing and maybe a powerful creature like an Aetherling for closing games.

The starcraft counterpart is, what most would call, the passive "macro game", Idra's dream, where you scout aiming not to die, out-expand your opponent and gain incremental advantages throughout the game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that "macro" always means passive. More on that later. But some game plans most certainly can be passive and hence would be similar to control.


AGGRO AND RUSHES.

Again, an easy comparison. Aggro decks win by creating a stronger board presence before the opponent can defend. Any rush strategy that invests in production early would be very similar to a classic aggro deck, like white weenie or mono red.


COMBO AND TIMINGS.

Here things get more interesting. A combo deck is one built around sinergies where individual cards kind of sucks alone, but creates a game winning situation when all pieces are in motion. The winning condition in combo means that everything else about the game up until the point becomes irrelevant. When a Storm deck gets going, it doesn't matter how many cards the opponent drew, his board presence or your life points. He is DEAD. The kill and game play are rarely interactive.

Starcraft doesn't really have pure combo game plans. I'd say that cheeses represent part of the spectrum of the metagame that combo occupies - high-risks that punish careleness or greed. if no one is putting Rule of Law in their sideboard, they are dying to Storm, in the same way that lack of early scouting or a greed opening would die to proxy barracks.

But, more interestingly, I think that combo decks play out in a similar way that strategies that are heavily focused on exploring timing windows. The best example I can think of is the way Creator played PvT (and PvZ and PvP to an extent) in wings of liberty. With his double forge build, it didn't really matter if he was reasonably behind in expansion timing or that he didn't even have the rest of his tech fully developed (no storms!). Suddenly, the game wasn't about the stuff games are usually about (economy, tech, even army size). What really, really mattered was his upgrade advantage. His how game plan was about getting that advantage and exploring it asap. Of course, he would run some risks to reach it (what if I die before my upgrades complete?), and the combo wasn't strong enough (compared to mtg combos) to completely ignore everything else, but the principle holds.

I was recently playing a PvT while my team mates were watching. The Terran invested heavily in drop play, dealt a lot of economic damage, expanded much earlier and had a supply lead. But, during all this time, I kept thinking to myself of how fine I was doing, because I would hit a 3/3 x 1/1 timing and my army didn't completely suck. I was assembling my combo. I crushed him in a single engagament and won the game. My team mates (two zerg players) were surprised with this result, because they didn't see the combo. They kept thinking the game was about how much damages the drops were doing.

The same princilpe holds in the Maru x Dear game 1 round of 4 match on WCS s3 finals. Maru dropped often and brilliant. Dear lost workers, nexus and then won the game, because he attacked with colossus/storm against no ghosts and a low viking count.

I honestly think that casters not identifying those timing windows, or combos, is the number one reason why you see results being prematurely called in a wrong way.


AGGRO-CONTROL AND PRESSURE

In MtG, aggo-control decks adapt their role according to the opponent. When UB Faeries played against monoR, it would try to survive until it come manage to lock the board and kill in a few flying counter-attacks. When Faeries played 5color control. it would commit one or two creatures on the board to pressure, not outright kill, and make the game being about effective mana usage and key counterspells.

In Starcraft, game plans start as a preconceived idea but can change during the game based on information gained about the opponent. This means that most good sc2 game plans actually involve playing the aggro-control role. Those are plans that mix early game safety and middle game pressure, so you know you can react to either rushes or greed.

Of course, this necessarily mean much more developed and complex game plans. Suddenly you have to account to everything. How not to die, how to gain advantages and how to execute a kill move when the opportunity develops. For me, this is a more accurate description of a macro game.

This also the most exicting way to watch and play starcraft, but it won't necessarily be the most effective.

Aggo-control differentiates from pure control because of the ability to apply pressure earlier (invest some resource in creatures). Never to kill (but killing is a possibility), but to dictate pace. In starcraft, this correlates to applying pressure and harassment at key times to disrupt the opponent and play, and dictate how the game will be played, by narrowing down his choices.

I think this is how Nony approaches the game. Ever since the beta, his best build relied upon investing the minimal ammount in structures in the early stages of the game (aggro-control decks are usually land tight as well, creating virtual card advantage) and being on the opponent's face to punish greediness. His current PvZ build, for me, is equivalent of U/B Faeries o UW fish. He opens supersafe, stays on 3 gate production until a third is saturated and use recall timings to keep the opponents economy in check. It's like how faeries would have 3-4 points of damage (usually flying and invulnerable) on the board that were never designed to kill an opponent, but it meant that the opponent had to deal with them in given clock. The faeries player would use that opportunity to gain incremental advantages and get a lead in the game, using Crypt Command to draw cards, spending mana more efficiently with counterspells, or adding a scion of oona or sprite to trade favorably.

Early during wings of liberty, aggressive strategies were king. There was too much rush possibilities and no one knew how to react properly. In a second moment, control and combo came to place, because it was beneficial to do so. Protoss knew how to defend and turtle until a deathball was ready; zergs did the same with infestor/broodlord.

Very rarely, we had true aggro-control gameplays and, when they did, it was from Terran players.

Curiously, that's how most mtg metagames develop. When playtesting a new format, aggro decks always won more on the begginig, followed by control decks that learned how to defend against them and, later on, true great aggro-control decks would emerge.

Also interestingly, you would have a lot of really, really good MtG players favoring aggro-control decks, because this meant the game would the most interactive as possible. With a lot of interactions, there are more room for mistakes from the other side. There is a reason whey Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa was the god of the UB Faeries deck and Finkel would excel with Fish. I also think this is a reason why great Terran players also dominated most of sc2 results, specially in wol (not necessarily because of race imbalance, but because sc2 terran allows, at the highest skill ceiling, a more adaptative game plan based on putting pressure and forcing interactions). With Heart of the Swarm, more races have access to better pressure options, which is great for the game.

As I said, this was just a fun thought exercise, but it helped me see more clearly how to develop game plans, what they should try to accomplish. More on that later.

Take care,
bertu

*****
SEKO SEKO SEKO
Kingsky
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Singapore298 Posts
October 30 2013 22:44 GMT
#2
This reminds me of something Artosis(i think?) said, regarding something on the lines in identifying the aggressor and defender in card game // sc2 matchups? and those skills apply?
Why do people hate the Colossus? Because the Colossus is like banksters from Wall Street: “too big to fail”. - TheDwF
bertu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil871 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 23:10:19
October 30 2013 22:56 GMT
#3
I think so. The fundamental question of magic is "who is the beatdown?", which means knowing when you have to attack and when you have to defend. In magic, this is answered by essentially analysing decklists. The useful part in creating all the nomenclature about archetypes is to facilitate answering "who is the beatwon", it's just a tool to better think about the game.

If you are control ("macro") and know you are facing ("aggro"), you intutively know what your game plan needs to be. Of course, this a clear cut example, and the interesting situations are in the betweens.

In starcraft, the question of "who is the beatdown" is a lot more fluid. You have to ask, given scouting information, who is strongest at a given time in game, and try to gain your advantages from there.

The classic example would be knowing when to take map control and abuse it (expand, threaten harrass, get better scouting information), which changes a lot during the game, usually based upon the development of tech. For instance, terran has early map control with marines and reapers, then protoss take it with a stalker, then terran takes it back with medivacs.

Other matchups have a similar pendulum of strength in them, and correctly identifying which side you are at it would mean finding the most efficient way to gain an advantage.
SEKO SEKO SEKO
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
October 30 2013 23:33 GMT
#4
Wish I knew how to play Magic. Seems pretty fun but intimidating to jump in to. Having to constantly spend money is a real turn off too.
Galfi
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil56 Posts
October 31 2013 00:39 GMT
#5
primeiro que seu inglês é zica, sempre considerei meu inglês muito bom, mas invejei seu vocabulário aí.

Besides that, it's great to know from someone who played both games, the intricacies that make both games look so much alike, and start to find out what makes MTG and SC2 amazingly popular.

very well writen sir.
"I'm not young enough to know everything"
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
October 31 2013 03:28 GMT
#6
Mothra: The game is easier to achieve basic competence in than SC2 is, I'd say. Thanks to it's local scene, you can also enter the local tournaments and have a good go of it without being an expert. I was one of the best players at my local store, and I was about the equivalent of high Diamond league in Magic, based on ELO rating. Imagine a high Diamond player trying to enter a local SC2 LAN, he'd get slaughtered.

One of the good things about the luck element in Magic is that it's always possible to score an upset for a worse player. The tournaments are also Swiss, so if you lose the first round you're not down and out.

The money thing, however, is a big problem, and it's the reason I stopped playing.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3459 Posts
October 31 2013 08:38 GMT
#7
This is so great, Magic the Gathering has really taught me a lot, specifically how to see combo's.
I can now say I'm an aggro-control player.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
10:00
Group A
Solar vs MaxPaxLIVE!
Zoun vs Bunny
Crank 1092
Tasteless466
ComeBackTV 466
Rex107
IndyStarCraft 105
3DClanTV 47
Liquipedia
The PondCast
10:00
Episode 71
CranKy Ducklings35
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Crank 1092
Tasteless 466
SortOf 137
Rex 107
IndyStarCraft 105
RotterdaM 77
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 5900
Calm 5450
Bisu 2326
Sea 1848
Horang2 1303
Flash 698
Free 653
Pusan 494
Leta 184
Last 170
[ Show more ]
Rush 87
sSak 83
ZerO 82
JulyZerg 77
ToSsGirL 62
Barracks 54
Backho 50
Aegong 47
hero 44
Yoon 25
Icarus 19
NaDa 16
Sea.KH 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
Terrorterran 10
Noble 6
Dota 2
BananaSlamJamma234
XcaliburYe195
League of Legends
Reynor74
Counter-Strike
olofmeister720
zeus506
shoxiejesuss310
x6flipin306
allub29
Other Games
summit1g15727
B2W.Neo499
crisheroes318
ZerO(Twitch)3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick522
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Noizen42
League of Legends
• Stunt626
Upcoming Events
Kung Fu Cup
31m
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Cure
Reynor vs TBD
WardiTV Korean Royale
31m
PiGosaur Monday
13h 31m
RSL Revival
22h 31m
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
1d
herO vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings
1d 22h
RSL Revival
1d 22h
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
IPSL
2 days
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
BSL 21
2 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
BSL 21
3 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
3 days
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.