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So I think I've finally decided that I just don't want to play Zerg anymore, possibly SC2.
The current meta of ZvX has become as stale as it was back at the end of WoL, and it seems like Blizzard has no intention of doing anything about it.
Every single ZvT I play is vs 4M, and the play style needed to beat 4M breaks down to basically this:
defend my 2 bases against 2-4 reapers
wall off at the front of my nat
make sure the hellions don't rush through the front
take 3rd, 4th, and macro hatch while dropping creep on Terrans 3rd/4th
spam lings, banes, drones, and make 10 mutas
never leave creep, mutas do nothing other than camp for drops
tech to hive
never leave creep
add in ultras and infestors
never leave creep
tech to broods
NOW, 20 minutes into the game, with brood/ultra/infestor/ling/bling you can MAYBE leave creep, if you win a big fight
This is fucking boring. Every single game is 20 minutes of defending vs parade pushes. I risk loses vs Terrans WAY below my skill level every single fight, some of which don't even bother pushing out until they are basically maxed, but that's what ZvT is. Terran attacks the whole game and Zerg isn't allowed to leave creep. Attacking Terran mineral lines is 1) worthless 2) ineffective and 3) I can't afford it anyway. This shit is NOT fun. It's not fun to watch, it's not fun to play.
On to ZvP:
Lately, every ZvP ends up vs skytoss, and the best part about skytoss is that hydras are fucking terrible. I routinely lose games vs skytoss where I will have better upgrades, a 3:1 hydra:void ray ratio, 2-3 vipers abducting, and fungal, but it doesn't fucking matter because hydras melt to anything and everything, especially if splash damage is involved.
FUN!
And as far as ZvZ... I find the MU just as boring. I am doing the same build I was doing 2 years ago in WoL. NOTHING has changed. If the opponent goes mutas, he loses, if he goes SH, he loses, the roach fucking dominates the MU and now you can't even add in infestors because they are atrocious.
Zerg is terribly designed. I thought HotS was going to fill some of the gaps (no anti air, no range, the hydra is fucking useless), but no, the expansion units are trash. It was fun for few months, but again, the game is just too shallow and lame.
 
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I'm a zerg player since the beta. Since brood war. I just switched to terran because of basicly the same thing. And i'm sure i am way bellow your level...
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Dota2 man.
Not even joking, I was a die hard Starcraft player from 2004 BW up until late WoL before I said "fuck this shit" and simply quit playing SC2 altogether and started playing Dota2. Sometimes I'll play a few games just for the lol'z and go random just to poke around and get a little taste of that RTS. But now Starcraft isn't what I remember it to be, doesn't feel the same or play the same, I don't even enjoy watching big tournaments anymore unless a particular player is in there like Snute or anyone Liquid' tbh lol.
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I like watching SC2, it's still a good game.
The Anti Whine.
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OP- is that you idra? idra?
But actually match up whines make for good information. keep them coming...I understand though. Getting better for me seems to also entail getting disillusioned about what's actually happening.. and it's often not that much that's exciting..
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On August 27 2013 22:11 Emzeeshady wrote:
I am enjoying ZvP atm but I am getting very bored with ZvZ. I seriously can't even imagine how any Zerg can enjoy playing ZvT in the state its in.
I lose to diamond terrans quite often and it gets to the point where I have to all in every match which is very little fun for me. HOTS brought so much to zerg, it really improved stagnant ZvP, it made Ultras viable and Mutas were dominant once again but with the spore buff and no change to widow mines and turbo vacs ZvT is a nightmare and ZvZ is way too straight forward.
You can call it whine or whatever but I don't care, I am not whining but rather extremely tired and frustrated. I still love watching SC2 and I doubt that will ever change but I don't see myself playing it much in the future.
PS, if you are having problems with Skytoss try hydra aggression transitioning to mass Muta, works really well for me.
I want to clarify that it is not as much of a balance issue as it is a design issue in my opinion.
I win plenty of matches vs skytoss too, but the whole game is annoying as fuck, and it's not even being discussed.
If Zerg goes for a static defense + SH build, the whole world explodes with how SH are imba, Zerg is ez, and free units are ruining the game.
If Protoss goes with a static defense into 2 gate phoenix into 3 base void/carrier/tempest with a handful of HT or Colossus, people act like did something great and meaningful.
If Zerg had anything that was capable of dominating that composition, it might be interesting, but at best it's an even fight, with Zerg being the one who has to be careful of which engagements he chooses to take IMO. It's stupid and annoying, I don't like watching it, I don't like playing it.
It comes down to designed flaws. SC2 seems full of them and they suck. Terran lacks any meaningful high-tier units. Zerg lacks range and anti-air, Protoss lacks the ability to win fights without gas-heavy units (sentry, HT, Colossus mostly). I thought they were going to do the BW thing and give each race a unit or two to fill this giant gap. I thought Zerg was going to get something with range, instead we got the SH. I thought Terran was going to get a better mech-style fighter, instead we got the hellbat. I thought Protoss was going to get something useful that comes out of a gateway, instead we got the MSC.
Why is Blizzard pushing the design of each race even further into this stupid setup instead of giving us options?
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I started to enjoy this game(more) when I started playing like hyvaa and other more all in zergs.
Looks at his games.
It aint easy being cheesy. It also got me a win vs TOP on Korea last night.
Zerg is 500x more fun beign aggresive.
Dont fall into North American macro mindset.
I havent played a ZvZ that I went past lair since WoL
ling-bling all ins baby
play to win the game.
Thats what the KR server taught me.
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I get what you're saying Eggi, and trust me, I am the cheesiest, shittiest player when I see advantage in it (ZvP is very open to lots of early aggression IMO). But the game has been pushed into these lame situations where there are no aggressive options for one side or the other. Terran has no way to attack in the early stages of TvP right now. Zerg can't attack Terran at all between like the 10 and 20 minute mark, regardless of what composition Terran is going for. Zerg can't attack a turtled up Protoss like ever.
Shit like this is annoying, stupid, and one-sided, why don't I have these tools available to me? I know this isn't the best Blizzard can do, we have the shining example of BW to look at where every game had aggression on both sides all the time (while Protoss is dropping reavers, Terran was doing run-bys with Vultures), there were giant wars over the middle of the map, and both sides are racing to expand while all this shit is going on.
Is this really the best they can do these days?
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When I play Zerg I have the opposite experience of what the OP has.
Now that Terrans often don't make siege tanks and likes cc first openings, there are tons of opportunities for zerg to put on aggression.
There must be something that the OP is not doing correctly or just simply neglecting.
Also what in the world is "4M"??
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this is how it goes for me as well but what frustrates me even more is toss when they send just that few too many zealots early into your base and you have no chance to defend it .. love that hopeless situation as the maps now can have proxies everywhere
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What I like to do these days is
ZvZ, I skip any form of early aggression, because it's just frustrating to play ling/bling battles everygame and then try to force it into some form of swarm host vs swarm host game. Because it's actually pretty fun trying to fight your way there.
Play the most abusive shit in TvZ. Like skip mutas and just hope your opponent doesn't call it with drops. Or those mass nydus allins, where you just hope your opponent misses one in the heat of the battle. Or that speedling rush that Jaedong attempted on Newkirk against Bomber (first inject all zerglings, hope he has the bunker at the front and doesn't have a wall finished). It's all very coinflippy, but it's not as frustrating as playing the same defensive shit over and over again and works @Masters.
ZvP I like quite a lot. For me it just sounds like you are playing hydras way too much as a standard unit and then get frustrated. Stay at roaches, don't use the hydrarange upgrade unless you really want to fight skytoss with hydras (because it is a waste of money vs ground) and instead of playing a compositionbased macro styles (like roach/hydra into viper into swarmhost) always just adapt to what your opponent is doing.
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low-economy games are most fun and almost the most skilled based(unless you get blind hardcounter)
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On August 27 2013 23:44 StatixEx wrote:
this is how it goes for me as well but what frustrates me even more is toss when they send just that few too many zealots early into your base and you have no chance to defend it .. love that hopeless situation as the maps now can have proxies everywhere
This happens to every zerg even at the pro level. But there are many things that zerg can do which if all added up, will drastically reduce the chance that your 3rd will get sniped.
-Overlord placements around the map starting with your first overlord. After your initial overlord, you should be sending subsequent overlords towards other parts of your opponents base and around the map. Good overlord placements can cover areas where probes might pass by.
-Keeping track of the scouting probe. Most of the time the probe will go into your main, and then back to your natural to try to deny your expo. Keep track of where it goes afterwards, does it go towards your 3rd or in a direction back towards their base? Keeping track of which direction it goes can drastically reduce the time your first zerglings spend to hunt it down. Your starting overlord heading towards your opponents nat can also be used to see whether the probe headed back to his base or not.
-Being active with zerglings. Zerglings without speed are faster than both zealots and mothership core. There is no reason to let them sit around when they can be actively poking at your opponents nat and scouting around the map. It will also help you scout for potential probes that they are sending out.
-At least one creep tumor connecting your bases. Often when zealots show up at your 3rd, the best defense you have atm are your queens. Being able to bring all your queens immediately to defend can be extremely crucial.
-Micro your units. Whether there are 4 zealots or 10 zealots you still need to micro your heart out if you only have queens and zerglings to defend.
-Getting roach warren on time. If you keep dying to a few zealots maybe you just need earlier roaches.
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4M = marine marauder medivac mine. but i dont really see marauders
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On August 27 2013 22:36 Eggi wrote:
I started to enjoy this game(more) when I started playing like hyvaa and other more all in zergs.
Looks at his games.
It aint easy being cheesy. It also got me a win vs TOP on Korea last night.
Zerg is 500x more fun beign aggresive.
Dont fall into North American macro mindset.
I havent played a ZvZ that I went past lair since WoL
ling-bling all ins baby
play to win the game.
Thats what the KR server taught me.
pretty much this. I was raging hard over zvt the other day, then I decided to play a more aggressive style. And yes, it's more fun doing retarded builds. My win/loss ratio hasn't changed that much, but I'm having fun again.
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On August 27 2013 22:11 BongChambers wrote:
Dota2 man.
Not even joking, I was a die hard Starcraft player from 2004 BW up until late WoL before I said "fuck this shit" and simply quit playing SC2 altogether and started playing Dota2. Sometimes I'll play a few games just for the lol'z and go random just to poke around and get a little taste of that RTS. But now Starcraft isn't what I remember it to be, doesn't feel the same or play the same, I don't even enjoy watching big tournaments anymore unless a particular player is in there like Snute or anyone Liquid' tbh lol.
I'll say this much: after quitting SC2 (also a zerg player) for dota, I found that going back to SC2 for a few ladder games once in a while became a lot more fun and refreshing compared to when I was playing all the time. Maybe taking a small break from the game will make future games better.
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Totally agree, loved sc2 when it came out since it was new, then the BL inf era was fking boring as fk (and im zerg) now with HOTS i had hopes but it seems that the new established meta is so boring and exhausting, Every matchup has fixed routes and seems repetitive. I really want to love sc2 but I just cant. Maybe LotV?
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On August 27 2013 22:11 BongChambers wrote:
Dota2 man.
Not even joking, I was a die hard Starcraft player from 2004 BW up until late WoL before I said "fuck this shit" and simply quit playing SC2 altogether and started playing Dota2. Sometimes I'll play a few games just for the lol'z and go random just to poke around and get a little taste of that RTS. But now Starcraft isn't what I remember it to be, doesn't feel the same or play the same, I don't even enjoy watching big tournaments anymore unless a particular player is in there like Snute or anyone Liquid' tbh lol.
This.
Except DotA2 just isn't fun either. CC'd until dead. Boring.
Anyway, SC2 is just not fun to play or watch competitively. The game is incredibly stale and you see the same few things every game, often with blowouts (see the last few major tournament finals). The game may be more popular than BW, but it's an indisputable fact that BW was/is actually a better competitive game to play/watch; SC2's popularity is due to accessibility (akin to McD's popularity when compared to quality food). Just play SC2 casually. You'll enjoy it a lot more. Try a lot more team/UMS games.
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EPT
