Perhaps one of the most controversial of kespa newcomers, hyvaa has stated his claim as "the master cheeser" in high level play, displaying some kind of cheesy, metagame play in over half of his games. To some people, this brings back memories of bitbybit.Prime and MC's 4-gate haydays.
And if there's one thing we know for sure, we all hate bitbybit.Prime.
Let me start off by showing a bad game not featuring hyvaa:
This is a terrible game. Not because Mini can't control against an oracle. Not because BeSt somehow snuck a pylon into Mini's base. It's terrible because BeSt does a completely blind proxy stargate first before his MsC or stalker (with a build that's not even optimized correctly), defending with only a zealot. In ANY circumstance other than Mini mismicroing and losing 16 probes and his zealot/stalker/MsC poke, BeSt would have straight up lost. It's this "meta" idea where you can do things blindly, hoping your opponent will do something else. And there's nothing to learn, nothing interesting at all about this game.
Let's examine a horrible hyvaa game:
hyvaa goes for an early speedling pressure (~22 lings, WAY more than normal pressure) into hidden roaches into a roach/baneling bust. This is classic hyvaa: cheese into cheese. Of course, this works based on the meta: "If my opponent cheesed, he's obviously going to try to macro up behind it and avoid straight-up losing...all I have to do is play standard. Right...?" Not against hyvaa.
Oh look, hyvaa goes for a 6pool followed by a baneling bust. -_-
WHY does this bother me? Because I've seen hyvaa play some incredible Starcraft. In the semi-finals of SPL he played 2 very strong macro games against Flash (though losing both of them). In what is known as the worst throw in SC2 history, hyvaa beat Rain with actually surprisingly strong swarm host micro and decision making. The more I watch him, the more I realize that he's actually a very good zerg player. He just seems very comfortable in odd, scrappy situations.
Which is fine. But WHY, dear god, WHY does he have to keep playing these stupid cheesy styles with obvious timings? It feels like a waste of the viewers' time, and it's certainly useless for learning anything about Starcraft. Watching timings like Rain's 2-base templar all-in against INnoVation or Life's incredible 5-hatch +1/+1 ling/baneling bust are beautiful and amazing because they specifically target a small weakness in a well-known build.
Take a player like Mvp. He plays solid macro and throws in cheeses.
Take a player like hyvaa. He plays cheese and throws in some macro.
What's wrong with that? Part of your argument seems to be that hyvaa is sort of wasting his potential by playing cheese. (Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth. You said that hyvaa could play great macro but he instead wastes our time with cheese, which leads me to interpret your words like I did.) However, why is macro considered superior to cheese?
If you think macro games are superior to cheese in terms of entertainment, then you have a point: he's depriving viewers of potentially awesome macro games. However, macro games can also be quite boring - they take longer, they are repetitive, and often lack the sheer tension of a well-executed cheese.
If you think macro is superior in terms of playstyle, then that's not really valid. I could say that Mvp is wasting his potential, he could be the amazing BitByBit Ver. 2, but that's not really accurate either. hyvaa and Mvp have different playstyles because they are different people, there is nothing inherently better about macro.
Still, it is fortunate that hyvaa mixes in some great macro games. After all, if you play one style too much, you get figured out really quickly. Cheese too much (hyvaa) -> People play defensively and deflect cheese easily Play too safely (most Europeans) -> People play greedy and outmacro you... also, playing safe will not win you championships in most cases, you need to take risks Play too greedy (MarineKing) -> You get cheesed out
It's funny because Hyvaa in BW was really really fucking smart he got stuck playing 2v2 and I think that always got him stuck a bit behind, but he was always a really good guy now he's like complete rofl
On August 20 2013 15:33 Entirety wrote: Take a player like Mvp. He plays solid macro and throws in cheeses.
Take a player like hyvaa. He plays cheese and throws in some macro.
What's wrong with that? Part of your argument seems to be that hyvaa is sort of wasting his potential by playing cheese. (Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth. You said that hyvaa could play great macro but he instead wastes our time with cheese, which leads me to interpret your words like I did.) However, why is macro considered superior to cheese?
If you think macro games are superior to cheese in terms of entertainment, then you have a point: he's depriving viewers of potentially awesome macro games. However, macro games can also be quite boring - they take longer, they are repetitive, and often lack the sheer tension of a well-executed cheese.
If you think macro is superior in terms of playstyle, then that's not really valid. I could say that Mvp is wasting his potential, he could be the amazing BitByBit Ver. 2, but that's not really accurate either. hyvaa and Mvp have different playstyles because they are different people, there is nothing inherently better about macro.
Still, it is fortunate that hyvaa mixes in some great macro games. After all, if you play one style too much, you get figured out really quickly. Cheese too much (hyvaa) -> People play defensively and deflect cheese easily Play too safely (most Europeans) -> People play greedy and outmacro you... also, playing safe will not win you championships in most cases, you need to take risks Play too greedy (MarineKing) -> You get cheesed out
Okay, you see, there's nothing wrong with playing calculated cheeses and hitting timings that will catch your opponent off-guard, BUT the main problem with hyvaa is that it's almost always risky, blind metagaming, which is stupid. Players like Mvp and Rain and Flash will ALWAYS continue to win championships because playing a solid macro style is just more...solid. hyvaa is always gambling whenever he plays, and it just makes me wanna facepalm everytime he just fails epically with one of his cheeses (and it makes me want to shake my head when someone actually falls for his tricks).
That being said, I believe he's a very intelligent player. Unlike BitByBit, he definitely has the potential to make it to the top and be one of the top kespa pros. But right now he's getting all of his wins with stupid plays, and that bothers me lol.
And just so we're clear, let me define stupid: hyvaa opens with a normal hatch first, but gets his gas very early before pool. He then proceeds to research speed, but OH, he doesn't stop there. After making ~20 lings and pushing away hellions, he puts down a roach warren and takes 2 more geysers. He adds on a baneling nest. He moves out to hit a fairly reasonable roach/baneling bust time, but OH, his opponent sees it and prepares! So hyvaa just sits back and continues making roaches and banelings (while faking a 3rd) and then just busts right as the terran player either 1) sends out a drop or 2) salvages all the bunkers and moves out on the map to take a 3rd. It's stupid because instead of doing something intelligent, he just continues doing the same thing and waits for his opponents to mess up. If his opponents DON'T mess up, then he attacks with this roach/bane all-in 3 minutes too late and loses the game in a horrible display of suckage.
On August 20 2013 15:59 aRyuujin wrote: It's funny because Hyvaa in BW was really really fucking smart he got stuck playing 2v2 and I think that always got him stuck a bit behind, but he was always a really good guy now he's like complete rofl
I think he's incredibly intelligent. And I think he understands the game well. So...yeah, maybe with time we'll see less predictable cheeses and more brilliant macro play.
EPT
Makes for some interesting games
