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SwarmHosts: Safely Whittling Away - Page 3

Blogs > Falling
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LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-20 08:43:20
August 20 2013 08:36 GMT
#41
On August 17 2013 01:44 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 00:46 HeeroFX wrote:
On August 16 2013 06:45 ElMeanYo wrote:
Love swarm hosts, but you really have to commit to them for them to work. They don't work too well with other units.

It can be fun sometimes as Zerg just to mass swarm hosts, spread creep and cover the map with spores and spines.



THey give you this "zone" that is hard to attack into, but I still think that if you are not the one pushing with them, than you are not gonna win, because they can't defend against split attacks all over the map that terran players like to incorporate.

Which is kind of an odd characteristic for something that is supposed to be a 'board control' unit. It can do so, but basically requires a map where you can keep on repositioning between attack lanes in the middle of the map. Kinda like closing the gap as a soccer/football goalie, you are able to defend more territory. But you can't leave a couple SH behind and hope they are going to do anything but die. It's the entire group of SH that are moving and back and forth. And so SH really can't do much against split attack.

@LaLusH
Show nested quote +

There is something to be said about a game where 200 vs 200 is the expected scenario to which balance is tailored, and a game where such battles much more seldom occur (and in the case they occur, are not meant nor intended to be fought between two equally balanced 200 supply armies).

Looking at it form the above aspect I don't think you could put in a unit like lurker into SC2 and make it viable (not without great difficulty at least). Blizzard experimented with tier2/tier3 lurkers. My suspicions are that these were the encountered problems:

Tier2 lurker: too much of a snowball effect since SC2 is a higher econ and faster paced game. If the opponent wasn't ready for lurkers, I imagine the result was either a stomp or a very very very difficult situation to get out of. On the other side of the extreme: if opponents blind countered, I think it would have made for some real decisive games where zerg was just instantly rolled.

Yeah, I think there is really something to that. Maybe a half a year ago, I was wondering why DT's are allowed to be so much better (one shot workers without a sound) in BW, than in SC2 (although they are relatively powerful and can do damage.) But it's actually a huge cost in money and time to get out even 2 dark templar. If they don't do anything that's actually a big deal. But BW DT would snowball so fast because of the higher economy and speed in which you can pump out DT (balanced out by having a separate tech building, admittedly.)

But I definitely buy the idea that if the game is intended to rocket to a 200/200 max army, then certain compositions are most cost effective when you it is impossible for you to have a distinct numbers advantage. A game where one player is hovering between 120-150, the other player can gain a numbers advantage by exceeding 150. If the game necessarily hits 200/200 super fast, that situation doesn't occur except to bank minerals and gas and build more macro structures to max and remax again.

edit
Just thinking here and correct meif I'm wrong. But in a game balanced around expected 200/200 maxed armies, that creates situations where both armies roaming around, completely maxed, but maybe not attacking or else overwhelming undefended bases. Does the army composition require mobility to be the majority unit? Maybe I'm thinking too much of the Protoss death ball that roams the map and eats what it can in it's path. But it seems to me the more the armies are tied at 200, the more it becomes imperative that the entire army is available to win the Big Battle. Having units stationary wouldn't help in the repositioning game and pulls supply out. (Of course there is also the multiple drop harass, but SH hardly work doing that compared to M&M.) And lurkers if not with their big army, would simply get over-run by the other big army.


I think so. What's important in a prolonged 200/200 situation is to make sure you take that one good engagement.

You don't split up or harass unless you are reasonably sure that a battle will not break out.

You do often get a scenario where people's first 3 bases start mining out, and where they have had a 4th for a while, but are trying to expand to a 5th (in order to keep 2-3 simultaneous bases mining). In that scenario players often take turns in running to one end of the map and back to continuously deny eachothers' 5th attempts.

That's the scenario in which you sometimes see some splitting (because they feel certain enough they can't be forced into a big fight, as well as certain enough that their opponent is not actually actively seeking out an engagement). When they have denied their 5ths enough times and when their 2nd and 3rds start drying up is the point where one player usually really feels he has to get something done.

Actually strike that. Come to think of it people don't really frequently split in these situations either. Only sometimes.

When a player is somewhat actively seeking out the engagement though, you do not split in any circumstances!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
August 20 2013 09:42 GMT
#42
On August 20 2013 01:36 Falling wrote:
@BigJ
In that case Dustin has a far different idea of what positional play means as that is what I was interpreting 'board control' to me. Particularly, because there had been a lot of calls at the time for more positional play. When I see things like 'gain map control,' then I am thinking a unit designed for positional play.

I guess in that sense they were successful, but successful in all the way that I criticized it in essentially being a one dimensional, passive unit. Where best play is to sit back and slowly whittle away at the enemy.


hm, I'm not quite sold on swarm host play being too passive to be honest.
I think at the highest level swarm host play can be extremely exciting and - though the swarm host itself does not contribute a lot of positional advantages - shows a lot of characteristics of positional play.

I think, (because of the way the pathing allows you to overrun siege positions) the swam host design isn't that bad and the SH is actually the only successful siege unit besides the tank in SC2. All other artillery range units - broodlord, tempest, colossus - are hardly useful to pin an opponent into a position and force him to break a contain.
Don't get me wrong - I do think that the swarm host is one dimensional and probably hard to make very exciting. But then again, I don't think any of the other siege units is really exciting in itself either, maybe apart from the tank. And that one is hard as hell to balance. Maybe even impossible if you don't want to nerf other Terran units that combo too well with a strong tank.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
August 21 2013 19:53 GMT
#43
I read a fun idea somewhere: locusts get an ability that gives them increased attack speed while on creep. This might make swarm hosts powerful defensive units, even in smaller numbers.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
MarlieChurphy
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States2063 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-22 23:00:44
August 22 2013 22:58 GMT
#44
The reason lurkers didn't make it past alpha is because of the way the game stacks and forms units. They figured it was too good. Also, it played a sort of dual role because the baneling was already there. Then they tried it versus non light units and it's just kind of useless.

The swarmhost is kind of shitty but lurker wouldn't fit in sc2, even though it was my favorite unit in bw.

imho, i think swarm hosts should have a much higher rate of fire, reduced life expectancy of locusts, and reduced hp of locusts. So they have like 10-15hp and die really fast, but they spawn super fast like a constant wave.

RIP SPOR 11/24/11 NEVAR FORGET
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33487 Posts
August 23 2013 00:04 GMT
#45
swarmhosts aren't lurkers

end
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11370 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-23 00:28:08
August 23 2013 00:27 GMT
#46
Supcom 2 isn't SC2

end

True. But I hold that comparisons can show implications in gameplay. So for instance it would be possible to show how SupCom2 unit design creates inferior gameplay to SC2.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
August 23 2013 16:43 GMT
#47
On August 23 2013 09:27 Falling wrote:
Supcom 2 isn't SC2

end

True. But I hold that comparisons can show implications in gameplay. So for instance it would be possible to show how SupCom2 unit design creates inferior gameplay to SC2.

Did I miss something or why did you bring up Supcom 2? :o

Looking forward to Planetary Annihilation, by the way?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11370 Posts
August 23 2013 17:58 GMT
#48
No (unless you go back to my first design blog.) I needed a parallel example that I had used in the past and Supcom 2 is the game I like to use for non-examples. I hadn't heard of planetary annihilation until now, but I'll see what it's like.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
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