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I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog
So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market.
With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery.
What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons?
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html
 
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Can't say prisons were built that way, but the army is to a degree. The military actually wants to cut back nowadays, but the government keeps on forcing them to waste money. Examples include forcing the military to build more tanks than it can conceivably use, keeping the military from closing useless bases and attempting to block the military from even bringing up cutbacks for the near future.
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US jails are not a good source of 'free labour', because the maintenance costs of prisons far outweigh whatever income the labour of prisoners produces. Likewise the costs of supporting such a vast military presence around the world are far greater than what you'd pay just to feed and house these people via even the most benevolent unemployment support system.
edit: both the prisons and military are massive sources of income for some very influential people, though. The profit margins on military contracts in particular are downright ridiculous, and the amount of power they have in US government through lobbying and just good old fashioned 'friends in right places' is quite significant.
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On July 18 2013 07:50 Salazarz wrote:
US jails are not a good source of 'free labour', because the maintenance costs of prisons far outweigh whatever income the labour of prisoners produces. Likewise the costs of supporting such a vast military presence around the world are far greater than what you'd pay just to feed and house these people via even the most benevolent unemployment support system.
The labor itself is free (prisoners have no income), and taxpayers pay for the housing and food costs. Think of them like government jobs. They are there to mask some problems and even give a private entity money. Drug users are not likely to try and escape I would imagine, so the lower security private prisons are ideal for them.
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I disagree. After WW II the United States was left in a position where they could take the lead in the world. When the cold war started. The US pushed tech and army production to have an army that would match communism. Where and when communism would threaten capitalist nations, the US would send in it's forces to help protect capitalist nations. Example Korea, Vietnam, Afganastan(although we mostly sent weapons to the rebels aka taliban). When the soviet union ended. We are still stuck in the mentality that we need to keep building up and keep a large army. But keep in mind as far as technolgy goes, we have more ships, and planes than anyone in the world. But ground army wise China is #1 to the US in that. And actually our military expenditure is only 4% of our GDP. (Source: CIA World Factbook), at like 28th in the world. So because of the fact the US is in this world power position they have to maintain a huge army because they are essentially policing the world at this point. And they are basically countering China. It isn't about jobs, it has nothing to do with it. Look at our history. Sure the war on drugs did increase our prison rates, but don't forget in the 80s President Regan shut down mental hospitals paid for by the govt. so these people also ended up Prison. Unemployment rate is at 7.6 percent (source http://www.bls.gov). There are factors for this too. For example, the US doesn't manufacture as much anymore, all our toys are made in China. This means that most of the jobs that didn't require a higher education (college), are not here for US workers anymore. So I think your link is completely absurd.
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"“Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.” - Theodore Roosevelt
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On July 18 2013 08:02 HeeroFX wrote:I disagree. After WW II the United States was left in a position where they could take the lead in the world. When the cold war started. The US pushed tech and army production to have an army that would match communism. Where and when communism would threaten capitalist nations, the US would send in it's forces to help protect capitalist nations. Example Korea, Vietnam, Afganastan(although we mostly sent weapons to the rebels aka taliban). When the soviet union ended. We are still stuck in the mentality that we need to keep building up and keep a large army. But keep in mind as far as technolgy goes, we have more ships, and planes than anyone in the world. But ground army wise China is #1 to the US in that. And actually our military expenditure is only 4% of our GDP. (Source: CIA World Factbook), at like 28th in the world. So because of the fact the US is in this world power position they have to maintain a huge army because they are essentially policing the world at this point. And they are basically countering China. It isn't about jobs, it has nothing to do with it. Look at our history. Sure the war on drugs did increase our prison rates, but don't forget in the 80s President Regan shut down mental hospitals paid for by the govt. so these people also ended up Prison. Unemployment rate is at 7.6 percent (source http://www.bls.gov). There are factors for this too. For example, the US doesn't manufacture as much anymore, all our toys are made in China. This means that most of the jobs that didn't require a higher education (college), are not here for US workers anymore. So I think your link is completely absurd.
The government is in the same mindset, but the military is not. Military leaders ask for less, as said by Anachronistic above. But for some reason, we keep spending. Also, when it comes to government spending, I dont think that GDP is ideal to look at. Rather you should look at government income. In 2012, the fed had 2.45 trillion revenue to work with. Of that, 688billion went to military, 60 billion to homeland security, and veteran affairs got 130billion. So about 36% of our income went to military (23% of our budget). Meanwhile, less than 15% of china's budget (I cant find a source on their revenue, but budget here: http://www.tealeafnation.com/2013/04/a-breakdown-of-chinas-trillion-dollar-budget/) went to military spending.
We are in a position of power, but do we need to be exercising that power?
Also, the unemployment rate is at 7.6% (technically, I prefer to use the other standard which includes underemployment as it is more realistic) but there are tons that have dropped out of looking for jobs:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/forget-the-unemployment-rate-the-alarming-stat-is-the-number-of-missing-workers-20130503
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Yes, the military does create a lot of employment, economic activity, and research and development, but if the trillions were to be spent elsewhere, according to the idea of guns or butter, the nation's GDP should increase overall.
But there are geopolitical implications. During the Cold War, the US had to expand its military presence worldwide to combat the spread of communism, and after the Cold War, the mentality, the deployments and the infrastructure remained in place.
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I can tell you that on the military planning side, we're not "holding back" because of this idea that it'll raise the unemployment numbers or put people out of work. I'll list you the top 3 reasons:
1. U.S. national security interests and situation does not warrant us to cut back that much of our military strength. We not only have to ask "are we safer", but also "will we be safer or at least be safe as we are now for the next decade?" These two questions have differing answers which leads to...
2. Most might want to cut back by 10 - 15%, some 25%, very few are calling out for 50%. The conflicting answers of the two questions mentioned and just how much should be cut leads to hesitation and deadlock over just how minimally we can cut.
When the military wants to make drastic changes, it at least wants to be on some solid foundation or fact it can go off from. Unfortunately trying to get the minimal accurate number to cut is both an elusive and moving number.
Once these first two questions are answered, the military then has the authority and obligation to start cutting its manpower, but with that....
3. The military is very conservative and hesitant to plan and execute drastic changes.
Individually, it takes a few months for a service member to actually leave the force, either because of his/her living situation, medical status, or the paperwork that gets involved. You can't just "fire" anyone in the military and expect him or her to be gone within the week like any other civilian companies.
Collectively, there's already a significant impact if a unit loses one or few service members. A unit losing 50% of its strength within a year with little notice is uncalled for. Each unit getting the word that 50% of its manpower will be gone is enough for the unit to just stop whatever they were planning to do for the next year. There needs to be a plan in place that spans over a few years to prevent all units stopping in place. Unfortunately, that plan itself could take a year or so to formulate and refine.
As a whole, the military can't just send out a blanket order to say "every unit needs to shed 50% of their manpower within 2-3 years". A lot of units are structured and designed such that it needs a certain percentage of manpower in order to function.
This is in the perspective of the military itself. Civilians and their leaders might want a large military because it supports their state or business, but such influence doesn't prevent the military to cut back if it wanted to. Already the Army and Marines are reducing their numbers significantly since last year.
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They're trying to build a prison! For you and me to live in!
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On July 18 2013 08:02 HeeroFX wrote:I disagree. After WW II the United States was left in a position where they could take the lead in the world. When the cold war started. The US pushed tech and army production to have an army that would match communism. Where and when communism would threaten capitalist nations, the US would send in it's forces to help protect capitalist nations. Example Korea, Vietnam, Afganastan(although we mostly sent weapons to the rebels aka taliban). When the soviet union ended. We are still stuck in the mentality that we need to keep building up and keep a large army. But keep in mind as far as technolgy goes, we have more ships, and planes than anyone in the world. But ground army wise China is #1 to the US in that. And actually our military expenditure is only 4% of our GDP. (Source: CIA World Factbook), at like 28th in the world. So because of the fact the US is in this world power position they have to maintain a huge army because they are essentially policing the world at this point. And they are basically countering China. It isn't about jobs, it has nothing to do with it. Look at our history. Sure the war on drugs did increase our prison rates, but don't forget in the 80s President Regan shut down mental hospitals paid for by the govt. so these people also ended up Prison. Unemployment rate is at 7.6 percent (source http://www.bls.gov). There are factors for this too. For example, the US doesn't manufacture as much anymore, all our toys are made in China. This means that most of the jobs that didn't require a higher education (college), are not here for US workers anymore. So I think your link is completely absurd.
I'd say it's rather questionable if the only reason the US engaged in all those wars during the cold war was to "protect" those nations...
However, your statements about the military expenditure of the US is plain ridiculous: only 4% of its GDP !? Take a look at what other countries spend:
Germany: 1.4%
Australia: 1.9%
Canada: 1.5%
compared to the 4.7% the US spent in 2011 (military budget list)
Also 28th in a world ranking isn't very far behind considering 150 or so nations are compared. Furthermore, the US was ranked 10th in 2011 according to the source above. Then you can also take a look which nations spent a higher percentage of their GDP than the US:
Eritrea, Oman, Chad, Georgia for example...
In such a ranking it would be wise to look at total amount spent. The US is the clear frontrunner by an extremely large margin...
Considering those numbers the US military spending is just plain crazy. However, there is certainly a multitude of political reasons, special interests and economic considerations why the US doesn't cutback on its military spending. Maybe unemployment concerns are a small part of the reasoning.
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On July 18 2013 10:41 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 08:02 HeeroFX wrote:I disagree. After WW II the United States was left in a position where they could take the lead in the world. When the cold war started. The US pushed tech and army production to have an army that would match communism. Where and when communism would threaten capitalist nations, the US would send in it's forces to help protect capitalist nations. Example Korea, Vietnam, Afganastan(although we mostly sent weapons to the rebels aka taliban). When the soviet union ended. We are still stuck in the mentality that we need to keep building up and keep a large army. But keep in mind as far as technolgy goes, we have more ships, and planes than anyone in the world. But ground army wise China is #1 to the US in that. And actually our military expenditure is only 4% of our GDP. (Source: CIA World Factbook), at like 28th in the world. So because of the fact the US is in this world power position they have to maintain a huge army because they are essentially policing the world at this point. And they are basically countering China. It isn't about jobs, it has nothing to do with it. Look at our history. Sure the war on drugs did increase our prison rates, but don't forget in the 80s President Regan shut down mental hospitals paid for by the govt. so these people also ended up Prison. Unemployment rate is at 7.6 percent (source http://www.bls.gov). There are factors for this too. For example, the US doesn't manufacture as much anymore, all our toys are made in China. This means that most of the jobs that didn't require a higher education (college), are not here for US workers anymore. So I think your link is completely absurd. I'd say it's rather questionable if the only reason the US engaged in all those wars during the cold war was to "protect" those nations... However, your statements about the military expenditure of the US is plain ridiculous: only 4% of its GDP !? Take a look at what other countries spend: Germany: 1.4% Australia: 1.9% Canada: 1.5% compared to the 4.7% the US spent in 2011 ( military budget list) Also 28th in a world ranking isn't very far behind considering 150 or so nations are compared. Furthermore, the US was ranked 10th in 2011 according to the source above. Then you can also take a look which nations spent a higher percentage of their GDP than the US: Eritrea, Oman, Chad, Georgia for example... In such a ranking it would be wise to look at total amount spent. The US is the clear frontrunner by an extremely large margin... Considering those numbers the US military spending is just plain crazy. However, there is certainly a multitude of political reasons, special interests and economic considerations why the US doesn't cutback on its military spending. Maybe unemployment concerns are a small part of the reasoning.
Maybe with the exception of Australia, you picked the wrong countries to compare vs. U.S. GDP on military spending considering that those countries have or had been considerably supported by U.S. military and presence such that they have or had no need to considerably spend as much as U.S.
As an application to this, watch as Germany's military spending vs. GDP rise up over the next few years as the U.S. keeps pulling its forces out and pressure its European counterparts to share more burden of maintaining NATO.
Another skewed example would be South Korea and Japan's GDP spending on their military at 2.7% and 1% respectively despite the presence of North Korea and two great powers of Russia and China. The U.S. has heavy physical presence in these two nations with a guaranteed assurance to come to their defense such that these two countries do not have to invest in heavily as much.
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On July 18 2013 10:41 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 08:02 HeeroFX wrote:I disagree. After WW II the United States was left in a position where they could take the lead in the world. When the cold war started. The US pushed tech and army production to have an army that would match communism. Where and when communism would threaten capitalist nations, the US would send in it's forces to help protect capitalist nations. Example Korea, Vietnam, Afganastan(although we mostly sent weapons to the rebels aka taliban). When the soviet union ended. We are still stuck in the mentality that we need to keep building up and keep a large army. But keep in mind as far as technolgy goes, we have more ships, and planes than anyone in the world. But ground army wise China is #1 to the US in that. And actually our military expenditure is only 4% of our GDP. (Source: CIA World Factbook), at like 28th in the world. So because of the fact the US is in this world power position they have to maintain a huge army because they are essentially policing the world at this point. And they are basically countering China. It isn't about jobs, it has nothing to do with it. Look at our history. Sure the war on drugs did increase our prison rates, but don't forget in the 80s President Regan shut down mental hospitals paid for by the govt. so these people also ended up Prison. Unemployment rate is at 7.6 percent (source http://www.bls.gov). There are factors for this too. For example, the US doesn't manufacture as much anymore, all our toys are made in China. This means that most of the jobs that didn't require a higher education (college), are not here for US workers anymore. So I think your link is completely absurd. I'd say it's rather questionable if the only reason the US engaged in all those wars during the cold war was to "protect" those nations... However, your statements about the military expenditure of the US is plain ridiculous: only 4% of its GDP !? Take a look at what other countries spend: Germany: 1.4% Australia: 1.9% Canada: 1.5% compared to the 4.7% the US spent in 2011 ( military budget list) Also 28th in a world ranking isn't very far behind considering 150 or so nations are compared. Furthermore, the US was ranked 10th in 2011 according to the source above. Then you can also take a look which nations spent a higher percentage of their GDP than the US: Eritrea, Oman, Chad, Georgia for example... In such a ranking it would be wise to look at total amount spent. The US is the clear frontrunner by an extremely large margin... Considering those numbers the US military spending is just plain crazy. However, there is certainly a multitude of political reasons, special interests and economic considerations why the US doesn't cutback on its military spending. Maybe unemployment concerns are a small part of the reasoning.
Germany, Australia, Canada, etc., all spend less money on the military than they would otherwise because the US provides so much of their defense. Europe and Australia freeride on the back of the US military hardcore.
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The government contracts companies to run prisons too, a lot of lobbying. If they feds don't provide the contracts many lose their major source of revenue.
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On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html
No.
Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military.
It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing.
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On July 18 2013 11:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 10:41 ggrrg wrote:On July 18 2013 08:02 HeeroFX wrote:I disagree. After WW II the United States was left in a position where they could take the lead in the world. When the cold war started. The US pushed tech and army production to have an army that would match communism. Where and when communism would threaten capitalist nations, the US would send in it's forces to help protect capitalist nations. Example Korea, Vietnam, Afganastan(although we mostly sent weapons to the rebels aka taliban). When the soviet union ended. We are still stuck in the mentality that we need to keep building up and keep a large army. But keep in mind as far as technolgy goes, we have more ships, and planes than anyone in the world. But ground army wise China is #1 to the US in that. And actually our military expenditure is only 4% of our GDP. (Source: CIA World Factbook), at like 28th in the world. So because of the fact the US is in this world power position they have to maintain a huge army because they are essentially policing the world at this point. And they are basically countering China. It isn't about jobs, it has nothing to do with it. Look at our history. Sure the war on drugs did increase our prison rates, but don't forget in the 80s President Regan shut down mental hospitals paid for by the govt. so these people also ended up Prison. Unemployment rate is at 7.6 percent (source http://www.bls.gov). There are factors for this too. For example, the US doesn't manufacture as much anymore, all our toys are made in China. This means that most of the jobs that didn't require a higher education (college), are not here for US workers anymore. So I think your link is completely absurd. I'd say it's rather questionable if the only reason the US engaged in all those wars during the cold war was to "protect" those nations... However, your statements about the military expenditure of the US is plain ridiculous: only 4% of its GDP !? Take a look at what other countries spend: Germany: 1.4% Australia: 1.9% Canada: 1.5% compared to the 4.7% the US spent in 2011 ( military budget list) Also 28th in a world ranking isn't very far behind considering 150 or so nations are compared. Furthermore, the US was ranked 10th in 2011 according to the source above. Then you can also take a look which nations spent a higher percentage of their GDP than the US: Eritrea, Oman, Chad, Georgia for example... In such a ranking it would be wise to look at total amount spent. The US is the clear frontrunner by an extremely large margin... Considering those numbers the US military spending is just plain crazy. However, there is certainly a multitude of political reasons, special interests and economic considerations why the US doesn't cutback on its military spending. Maybe unemployment concerns are a small part of the reasoning. Germany, Australia, Canada, etc., all spend less money on the military than they would otherwise because the US provides so much of their defense. Europe and Australia freeride on the back of the US military hardcore.
source for "hardcore freeride"?
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On July 18 2013 12:52 Elegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html No. Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military. It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289
"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchman_Farm
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California has the 3 strike law. 3rd felony and you go to prison for a long time (usually 25-life). This sounds good, but when you look at what crimes constitute what are felonies in CA it's absurd. Marijuana related stuff (used to be), Graffiti, other dumb stuff like attempted robbery (when there was no victim or anything to steal even), stolen property stuff, etc.
The thing about prisons being free money is right, but they cost more than they make. So to the owner or the govt they are getting more money, but to everyone else we are paying more tax and losing more money. So essentially we are the slaves as much as the prisoners are the slaves, but we must pay it if we agree that these people should be locked up. Overall the govt/prison owners are losing too though, because eventually the system fails and then hell breaks loose.
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From what I know, in the US the government hires private contractors to set up prisons and keep them running, then pay them for each prisoner that goes in. Couple years back there was some scandal when this judge took bribes to put kids in jail.
Naturally, it is not in the interest of these contractors to focus on rehabilitation, as that would mean less repeat business. So well...
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Like almost anything of that scale there will not be a simple easy to understand reason for its present state, there are simply too many people involved for there to be anything remotely resembling a cohesive vision or direction.
There are certainly lobbyists in the prison industry who work fairly tirelessly to keep the drug wars going but its way more complicated than just that, its a factor sure, but its one of many and I don't think its close to being the main reason.
As far as the military goes that's quite a weird hypothesis, I see where you're going but the army won't suddenly collapse and fire off a bunch of people into the market. You could just as easily argue that were the army such a big recruiter in a lot of areas, more effort would be put into providing jobs and stimulating industry in several areas, it just so happens the army is a big recruiter so it might not be worth your while.
The main reason for the US's large military force is because the country see's itself as 'the greatest country in the world', I'm not going to comment on whether that's true, but the US has a history and culture deeply entangled with the military so it's no wonder the US has a large standing army.
This is the same as before though, its something far too large for there to be any kind of cohesive vision and direction, one general has one idea and all his subordinates have different ideas etc all pulling in various directions, all of which conflict with the recently appointed secretary of defense who's made it his mission to stand out from the man before him with bold new ideas. The result is often a clusterfuck which blunders on without anyone really having a good handle of whats going on.
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On July 18 2013 13:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 12:52 Elegy wrote:On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html No. Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military. It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchman_Farm
That source isn't entirely accurate. I have no idea what percentage of that stuff is made in prisons, but I can definitely tell you that everything listed under 100% is not true. I have helmets, kits (vest + plates), uniforms, shirts and bags that are definitely not made by prisoners, and so does everyone else in my unit. This makes me question how much of that is true because the first part most definitely isn't.
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On July 19 2013 00:09 Nitrogen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 13:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 18 2013 12:52 Elegy wrote:On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html No. Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military. It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchman_Farm That source isn't entirely accurate. I have no idea what percentage of that stuff is made in prisons, but I can definitely tell you that everything listed under 100% is not true. I have helmets, kits (vest + plates), uniforms, shirts and bags that are definitely not made by prisoners, and so does everyone else in my unit. This makes me question how much of that is true because the first part most definitely isn't.
Why are you certain they weren't made by prisoners?
EDIT:
Another source:
http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/prison-labor-exposed/
Basically, it wont say that it is made by prisoners. But rather a company or a subcontract that uses their labor.
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The idea of creating artificial jobs for the sake of creating jobs is economically much more complex than it seems. In a closed regulated ecosystem, it actually works. Even though creating jobs this way is more expensive than simply giving the same money to the people (or not taking the money from them in the first place), it doesn't matter, because or the money wasted on pretending to do someting usefull ends up back in the system, thus having the same net effect as spending them in any other way.
On the other hand, the U.S. (or any) economy is not a closed system, because you have to compete with the rest of the world on a somehow free market. Considering that, creating fake work using tax money is inferior to not taking the money from the people in the first place, because it creates competitive disadvanatage with respect to those who use all their money for something useful. A prime example of how absurdly this approach fails is the European agricultural policy.
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the USA needs to have a shit ton of military power and prisoners. They are #1 in military spending and # of incarcerated citizens in the world so......plus, it's been politically correct since nixon to throw illicit drug users in prison
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On July 19 2013 03:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 00:09 Nitrogen wrote:On July 18 2013 13:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 18 2013 12:52 Elegy wrote:On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html No. Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military. It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchman_Farm That source isn't entirely accurate. I have no idea what percentage of that stuff is made in prisons, but I can definitely tell you that everything listed under 100% is not true. I have helmets, kits (vest + plates), uniforms, shirts and bags that are definitely not made by prisoners, and so does everyone else in my unit. This makes me question how much of that is true because the first part most definitely isn't. Why are you certain they weren't made by prisoners? EDIT: Another source: http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/prison-labor-exposed/Basically, it wont say that it is made by prisoners. But rather a company or a subcontract that uses their labor.
http://www.ops-core.com/FAST_Ballistic_Helmet_P7C6.cfm
http://www.eagleindustries.com/products/detail.aspx?id=185
The higher quality gear isn't made by prisoners. I'm sure that prisoner's make most of it for cf, but that's not all of the military. The fact that they just come out and say 100% of all those things is just plain wrong.
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On July 19 2013 09:45 Nitrogen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 03:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 19 2013 00:09 Nitrogen wrote:On July 18 2013 13:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 18 2013 12:52 Elegy wrote:On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html No. Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military. It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchman_Farm That source isn't entirely accurate. I have no idea what percentage of that stuff is made in prisons, but I can definitely tell you that everything listed under 100% is not true. I have helmets, kits (vest + plates), uniforms, shirts and bags that are definitely not made by prisoners, and so does everyone else in my unit. This makes me question how much of that is true because the first part most definitely isn't. Why are you certain they weren't made by prisoners? EDIT: Another source: http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/prison-labor-exposed/Basically, it wont say that it is made by prisoners. But rather a company or a subcontract that uses their labor. http://www.ops-core.com/FAST_Ballistic_Helmet_P7C6.cfmhttp://www.eagleindustries.com/products/detail.aspx?id=185The higher quality gear isn't made by prisoners. I'm sure that prisoner's make most of it for cf, but that's not all of the military. The fact that they just come out and say 100% of all those things is just plain wrong.
Do you have a source of who or where their gear is manufactured? Just linking to products that the military uses doesn't really prove much when companies can subcontract. The whole thing is pretty clouded because it is difficult to track the trail for each.
For example, apparently ops-core is owned by gentex corporation.
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Well I dont know about the ties to the military but the US prisons create alooooot of jobs for staff etc (especially since many are private), so there's a very large incentive to keep incarcerating people
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On July 19 2013 11:08 Divinek wrote:
Well I dont know about the ties to the military but the US prisons create alooooot of jobs for staff etc (especially since many are private), so there's a very large incentive to keep incarcerating people
The jobs that are created don't make up for the insane costs of incarcerating people though. People are incarcerated in great numbers largely because of the government's desire to control people. You can look beyond that but I think that's the main reason.
That said, most of the military is actually welfare what a false sense of worth. Little is created, a lot is wasted, soldier's training and equipment is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars each... That's not to say it's all useless, but regardless of your perspective, most military spending goes no where. One thing it certainly does is reduce unemployment with a massive amount of government jobs.
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On July 19 2013 10:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 09:45 Nitrogen wrote:On July 19 2013 03:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 19 2013 00:09 Nitrogen wrote:On July 18 2013 13:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 18 2013 12:52 Elegy wrote:On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html No. Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military. It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchman_Farm That source isn't entirely accurate. I have no idea what percentage of that stuff is made in prisons, but I can definitely tell you that everything listed under 100% is not true. I have helmets, kits (vest + plates), uniforms, shirts and bags that are definitely not made by prisoners, and so does everyone else in my unit. This makes me question how much of that is true because the first part most definitely isn't. Why are you certain they weren't made by prisoners? EDIT: Another source: http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/prison-labor-exposed/Basically, it wont say that it is made by prisoners. But rather a company or a subcontract that uses their labor. http://www.ops-core.com/FAST_Ballistic_Helmet_P7C6.cfmhttp://www.eagleindustries.com/products/detail.aspx?id=185The higher quality gear isn't made by prisoners. I'm sure that prisoner's make most of it for cf, but that's not all of the military. The fact that they just come out and say 100% of all those things is just plain wrong. Do you have a source of who or where their gear is manufactured? Just linking to products that the military uses doesn't really prove much when companies can subcontract. The whole thing is pretty clouded because it is difficult to track the trail for each. For example, apparently ops-core is owned by gentex corporation.
http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/business/area-military-helmet-makers-see-new-jobs-in-prisons-exit-from-contracts-competition-1.817860
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No, I disagree.
Military
The military is so large because the U.S. public and politicians have their collectives heads stuck so far up their asses that logic is like an alien language to them. We're still stuck with the ass-fucking-backwards foreign policy of "if we can't fight two separate wars across the globe from each other, we aren't powerful enough." Our military is built to be so powerful that we not only deter anyone from trying anything, but we can actively fuck with multiple continents at a time so other countries aren't capable of trying anything. As a side effect, we waste an enormous amount of money that should be going to the American people and we also piss off the rest of the world. It's stupid, it's arrogant, and it's the reason that basically every country in the world would, if they were given the opportunity without taking massive military/economic repercussions, give us a giant middle finger in some way.
It is entirely possible for the military to gradually shrink our size by even 50%. Just do something like stop filling positions as people leave the military until you drop under the new numbers. Then you don't need to fire military personnel.
Prison System
1) Our prison culture is retributive, not rehabilitative. We aim to punish people for committing crimes instead of rehabilitating them so that they won't in the future (like the rest of the civilized world does). What this does is that it makes anyone who enters the prison system significantly more likely to commit a crime again once they leave. This is because of the horrible conditions of our prisons; few worthwhile activities, horrible living conditions, poor/inept/oppressive prison guard system, etc.
2) We have way to many fucking people going into prisons in the first place. This can be largely attributed to the fact that our drug policies are beyond stupid and that our culture wants to dictate morality on a mass scale. Prison sentences are absolutely ridiculous and often disproportionate to the crime and people get sent to prison for stupid stuff (like drug possession). Then, when they get in, they come out being more likely to commit a crime again, due to our horrible prison culture. It's a vicious cycle.
I disagree. After WW II the United States was left in a position where they could take the lead in the world. When the cold war started. The US pushed tech and army production to have an army that would match communism. Where and when communism would threaten capitalist nations, the US would send in it's forces to help protect capitalist nations. Example Korea, Vietnam, Afganastan(although we mostly sent weapons to the rebels aka taliban). When the soviet union ended. We are still stuck in the mentality that we need to keep building up and keep a large army. But keep in mind as far as technolgy goes, we have more ships, and planes than anyone in the world. But ground army wise China is #1 to the US in that. And actually our military expenditure is only 4% of our GDP. (Source: CIA World Factbook), at like 28th in the world. So because of the fact the US is in this world power position they have to maintain a huge army because they are essentially policing the world at this point. And they are basically countering China. It isn't about jobs, it has nothing to do with it. Look at our history. Sure the war on drugs did increase our prison rates, but don't forget in the 80s President Regan shut down mental hospitals paid for by the govt. so these people also ended up Prison. Unemployment rate is at 7.6 percent (source http://www.bls.gov). There are factors for this too. For example, the US doesn't manufacture as much anymore, all our toys are made in China. This means that most of the jobs that didn't require a higher education (college), are not here for US workers anymore. So I think your link is completely absurd.
Our overall military expenditures account for almost a quarter of our budget and the total is larger than the next 10 countries combined.
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On July 19 2013 23:56 Nitrogen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 10:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 19 2013 09:45 Nitrogen wrote:On July 19 2013 03:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 19 2013 00:09 Nitrogen wrote:On July 18 2013 13:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 18 2013 12:52 Elegy wrote:On July 18 2013 07:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:I don't think this is quite thread worthy, so I made it a blog So I think that I finally realized why we have such a large standing army and high incarceration rate in the United States. We don't have a super strong army for protection, or anything of the sort. We have a strong army because they are JOBS. We have our military police the world not only to "protect our interests", but also because they can't justify such a large number of people in the armed forces if they are just sitting on american bases on our own soil. Think about it, we have about 1.4 million people in the armed forces. If we cut that in half, then suddenly there are 700 thousand more people looking for jobs (unemployment in the US is ~11 million, not including the millions that are no longer looking for a job). That is a staggering number to just throw back into the job market. With that in mind, let us turn to prisons. In particular, the war on drugs since there is some interesting numbers for that. There are around 2.2 million people in prison in the US, more than any country in the world. Half of them are there due to the war on drugs. Prisoners are taxpayer paid free labor. They produce lots of goods that are used in the military or other places for no income, just the food and a roof over their head and iron bars as their door. Without the drug war, that would be 1.1 million people looking for jobs, and 1.1 million fewer people producing goods for free. I won't even touch the concept that prisons are actually new age slavery. What do you think? Is it true that these may be one of the core reasons for our military and absurd prison system? Are there other reasons? Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forceshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html No. Give me sources about how prisons are apparently sources of "free labor" that functions as new age slavery. Show me sources about how they produce "LOTS" of goods that are used in the military. It's simply impossible to take you seriously if you make such grandiose claims and cite...nothing. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchman_Farm That source isn't entirely accurate. I have no idea what percentage of that stuff is made in prisons, but I can definitely tell you that everything listed under 100% is not true. I have helmets, kits (vest + plates), uniforms, shirts and bags that are definitely not made by prisoners, and so does everyone else in my unit. This makes me question how much of that is true because the first part most definitely isn't. Why are you certain they weren't made by prisoners? EDIT: Another source: http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/prison-labor-exposed/Basically, it wont say that it is made by prisoners. But rather a company or a subcontract that uses their labor. http://www.ops-core.com/FAST_Ballistic_Helmet_P7C6.cfmhttp://www.eagleindustries.com/products/detail.aspx?id=185The higher quality gear isn't made by prisoners. I'm sure that prisoner's make most of it for cf, but that's not all of the military. The fact that they just come out and say 100% of all those things is just plain wrong. Do you have a source of who or where their gear is manufactured? Just linking to products that the military uses doesn't really prove much when companies can subcontract. The whole thing is pretty clouded because it is difficult to track the trail for each. For example, apparently ops-core is owned by gentex corporation. http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/business/area-military-helmet-makers-see-new-jobs-in-prisons-exit-from-contracts-competition-1.817860
Well, I guess things are changing if they dont use prison labor. The original article citing 100% was from 2005, still that article still shows that they produce a substantial amount of products.
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EPT
