• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:08
CET 15:08
KST 23:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Evil Geniuses - shutting down14ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier5Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League77Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.167
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? REPORT: StarCraft 2: Remastered In Development Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Evil Geniuses - shutting down
Tourneys
ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands
External Content
Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 548 Shining Bright Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror
Brood War
General
[Megathread] Daily Funny Videos Hands of Pluto Recent recommended BW games Oceanic Brood War - Join and chat! Bot on ladder
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [$1250] International ShieldBattery League [ASL22] Grand Finals [BSL23] RO24 Group C
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) 50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Armies of Exigo - YesYes? General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7636 users

Phalanx's Daily #62: Re-visiting my PvZ, testing

Blogs > Sir.Phalanx
Post a Reply
Sir.Phalanx
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Japan195 Posts
July 14 2013 11:06 GMT
#1
Hello my good ladies (!?) and gentlemen~. Once again it's time for a daily by me.

First off, what I did in SC today; A bit of laddering, and a lot of time practicing my blink micro. I've found that for the blink all-in ish build that I was using, my blink micro really was quite bad. I've practiced the build it's self enough that the timings are quite crisp, but now I just need to make sure that I'm blinking back in time and such. I've especially been having troubles against 1gate robo (maybe 2gate, not sure) expand builds, which seem to have suddenly gained popularity. The blinking back can really save a lot as long as it's done right, which is the whole point I suppose.

Next, I've come back a little bit to my good ol' PvZ build. Yes, that one in which I get 4 fast bases. I've kept using it (most of the time only getting 3 instead of 4 bases) and I think that it is still very useful... at the very least it fits how I like to play very well. I have come to the realization that I actually need to get very, VERY few voidrays. In fact, if I make them too soon then I'll lose because voidrays are crap against hydralisks. I tried out a few tests with numbers today, just to give a feel of how little I could get by with.

First off; I almost always will have spare zealot/archons around for meatshields by the time a usual roach/hydra force would attack. This makes it very easy for my oracles to pick off a few hydralisks before they actually start getting targetted. The only possible downside is that oracles are gas-intensive, but that downside is neglible once I'm actually on 3-4 base gas saturation. Bases are fairly easy to defend thanks to the mobility of oracles, and the fact that I also have warp-ins at my disposal to keep the bases alive.

*Note, 9 oracles can be made pretty switftly, early enough to be around before any sort of roach/hydra attack hits off of 3 bases*

TESTS: both sides a-moved

6zealots+9oracles (+1 grnd atk) > 25 hydralisks (+2/+2)
[image loading]

Nexus + 5oracles+2pylon+2cannon > 35 speedlings (+2/+2)
*the nexus doesn't fall, speedling micro makes no difference*
[image loading]

For the above 2 tests I looked for a pretty minimal amount of defenses that I could have at my disposal to deal with fast attacks; especially when it came to defending the base against zerglings, very few units were required (it would be much easier if I had a few zealots around to help get in the way too). I'm also always behind on upgrades, so I took that into account (no upgrades for air).

So I lost my train of thought a little bit while writing that, except that I must note more that oracles are pretty damn good against hydras, especially when mixed with ground support. Zealot support is usually plentiful, and throwing them away is no problem if I can decimate his hydralisk count in exchange. Voidrays rarely are a good choice in the early game (unless it's a fast all-in, which oracles wouldn't have the energy to deal with), and units that I produce are always either a bunch of oracles or phoenixes (only vs mutas, of course). The oracles holding off hydralisks for one big push is all that needs to be done, since the rolling economy will allow me to create many templar and voidrays afterwards (voidrays will do splendidly once I actually get storm).

SO. Train of thought derailed while writing this, but long story short I've decided that I will stick with my fucked up PvZ build and that I need to practice blink micro Mohr. Thanks for reading, GL HF in whatever game you play!

P.S.
My current clan has some sort of sponsorship?? THEN I MUST REDIRECT YOU!!! TO OUR WEB PAGE!!!
http://nacgaming.net/

P.P.S.
Although no longer part of their community, Phalanx continues to support DarkOnyx. They have barely any activity, but with some more love maybe they might actually get their asses working . They're a great bunch of guys, and really the reason why I could get up to the league I am now.
https://www.facebook.com/DarkOnyxFTW

P.P.P.S.
Uhhh nothing interesting I could think of. 4 Corgis in a line!

*
Go to school - Laddder - Sleep - repeat. Who needs a social life anyways.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
July 14 2013 13:33 GMT
#2
The thing that worries me about mass Oracles for defence is that Mutas or Corruptors would absolutely wreck them, for obvious reasons. So your build may be able to defend early hydra attacks, but if the Zerg takes a very fast fourth and goes into Mutas instead, you're in trouble.

Void Rays can in fact defend a fast third against hydras, with the aid of cannons and zealots, and possibly sentries, I forget. You should check out rsvp's replay pack here, he's labelled the games for your convenience: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408248
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
July 14 2013 18:12 GMT
#3
Voidrays are actually much better for defending hydra attacks. If the zerg does a hydra max build then mass oracle will just die to it. It's also only viable when you surprise the zerg with it, and with no anti-air you can't reliably defend scouting. At that point, you're relying on your opponent to make a mistake for the build to be any way viable.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-14 21:37:07
July 14 2013 21:36 GMT
#4
Don't forget the opponent can target the oracles while kiting the Zealots, and they cannot shoot Mutalisks.
Sir.Phalanx
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Japan195 Posts
July 14 2013 23:28 GMT
#5
On July 14 2013 22:33 Salivanth wrote:
The thing that worries me about mass Oracles for defence is that Mutas or Corruptors would absolutely wreck them, for obvious reasons. So your build may be able to defend early hydra attacks, but if the Zerg takes a very fast fourth and goes into Mutas instead, you're in trouble.

Void Rays can in fact defend a fast third against hydras, with the aid of cannons and zealots, and possibly sentries, I forget. You should check out rsvp's replay pack here, he's labelled the games for your convenience: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408248


Hmmm perhaps using sentries along with voidrays would be stronger... I have always sucked balled with sentries so it may take a lot of getting used to though. I'll try to give those replays a look.

Also yes, mass oracles would outright lose to mutas or corruptors, and that's why I need to make sure to scout diligently. A lot of the time I've been able to scout their tech path of choice in time (sometimes way to close of a call) but even if they kill off a good deal of probes I still have come back.... then again, I might have just been able to come back because of the level I play at. One game that I played in which I had already made about 5 oracles and then scouted the mutalisks as they popped out of their eggs, I started pumping phoenix as fast as I could and simply went for a counter attack with oracles. 5 or so can deal a pretty good deal of damage and I think that they actually were able to kill off a base while he was busy microing... I lost a ton of probes but managed to get back with zeal/archon/phoenix.
Go to school - Laddder - Sleep - repeat. Who needs a social life anyways.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-17 05:25:16
July 17 2013 02:38 GMT
#6
A handful of Oracles are good for defending against speedlings, no doubt, but I feel like they aren't good to get stuck with in the late-game, or even mid-game, especially if Zerg goes for Spire tech. Void Rays are always better because they can shoot up and do bonus vs. Armored, so they can deal with Roaches and Corruptors. Hydras melt against HTs, Mutas die to some Phoenix (or Carriers if you go full-on Sky Toss; they're surprisingly good against their alleged counters).

The only problem I can see is if you get too greedy with expansions, then you can die pretty easily to a Hydra max because you won't have Storm yet. If you do, then you were really tech greedy and will die to an earlier Roach/Hydra push.

Btw, Oracles don't benefit from Air Weapons.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
IntoTheTV X SOOP
20:00
Premier - Group C
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
IntoTheiNu 1249
WardiTV781
TKL 169
Rex131
CranKy Ducklings92
CranKy Ducklings SOOP9
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
TKL 162
Rex 122
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 43305
Calm 8586
Bisu 2006
Mini 1011
actioN 832
Horang2 793
Jaedong 553
Soma 481
Larva 401
EffOrt 395
[ Show more ]
Hyuk 370
BeSt 364
Stork 362
Light 342
firebathero 218
Barracks 133
hero 94
Sea.KH 85
Zeus 82
ggaemo 73
Snow 69
Killer 51
Sharp 43
Bishop 40
Mind 35
Mong 29
ToSsGirL 28
Yoon 27
HiyA 26
Terrorterran 25
Movie 24
Rock 16
910 16
Sexy 16
Shine 14
scan(afreeca) 13
yabsab 13
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
zelot 12
Sacsri 10
Icarus 6
Dota 2
Gorgc9050
Cr1tdota2259
qojqva653
XcaliburYe212
syndereN198
Counter-Strike
markeloff95
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr85
Other Games
B2W.Neo1373
hiko949
olofmeister713
crisheroes438
Lowko332
Beastyqt268
Pyrionflax250
DeMusliM160
RotterdaM56
Liquid`VortiX54
QueenE14
fpsfer 2
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL28119
[ Show 9 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV517
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
9h 52m
The PondCast
19h 52m
Kung Fu Cup
20h 52m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 20h
SHIN vs GuMiho
Clem vs Classic
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
GSL
2 days
Epic.LAN
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
Epic.LAN
3 days
Yamato Cup
5 days
Map Test Tournament
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Rogue vs Classic
Patches Events
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSC
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2026-27
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.