• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:20
CET 16:20
KST 00:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
2026 KongFu Cup Announcement3BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled11Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains14Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block4GSL CK - New online series18
StarCraft 2
General
Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Terran AddOns placement
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April 2026 KongFu Cup Announcement [GSL CK] Team Maru vs. Team herO StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Team League Season 10
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 516 Specter of Death Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year
Brood War
General
Are you ready for ASL 21? Hype VIDEO ASL21 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Gypsy to Korea BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL22] Open Qualifiers & Ladder Tours IPSL Spring 2026 is here! ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread No Man's Sky (PS4 and PC)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Mexico's Drug War Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread General nutrition recommendations Cricket [SPORT] TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2205 users

Phalanx's Daily #62: Re-visiting my PvZ, testing

Blogs > Sir.Phalanx
Post a Reply
Sir.Phalanx
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Japan195 Posts
July 14 2013 11:06 GMT
#1
Hello my good ladies (!?) and gentlemen~. Once again it's time for a daily by me.

First off, what I did in SC today; A bit of laddering, and a lot of time practicing my blink micro. I've found that for the blink all-in ish build that I was using, my blink micro really was quite bad. I've practiced the build it's self enough that the timings are quite crisp, but now I just need to make sure that I'm blinking back in time and such. I've especially been having troubles against 1gate robo (maybe 2gate, not sure) expand builds, which seem to have suddenly gained popularity. The blinking back can really save a lot as long as it's done right, which is the whole point I suppose.

Next, I've come back a little bit to my good ol' PvZ build. Yes, that one in which I get 4 fast bases. I've kept using it (most of the time only getting 3 instead of 4 bases) and I think that it is still very useful... at the very least it fits how I like to play very well. I have come to the realization that I actually need to get very, VERY few voidrays. In fact, if I make them too soon then I'll lose because voidrays are crap against hydralisks. I tried out a few tests with numbers today, just to give a feel of how little I could get by with.

First off; I almost always will have spare zealot/archons around for meatshields by the time a usual roach/hydra force would attack. This makes it very easy for my oracles to pick off a few hydralisks before they actually start getting targetted. The only possible downside is that oracles are gas-intensive, but that downside is neglible once I'm actually on 3-4 base gas saturation. Bases are fairly easy to defend thanks to the mobility of oracles, and the fact that I also have warp-ins at my disposal to keep the bases alive.

*Note, 9 oracles can be made pretty switftly, early enough to be around before any sort of roach/hydra attack hits off of 3 bases*

TESTS: both sides a-moved

6zealots+9oracles (+1 grnd atk) > 25 hydralisks (+2/+2)
[image loading]

Nexus + 5oracles+2pylon+2cannon > 35 speedlings (+2/+2)
*the nexus doesn't fall, speedling micro makes no difference*
[image loading]

For the above 2 tests I looked for a pretty minimal amount of defenses that I could have at my disposal to deal with fast attacks; especially when it came to defending the base against zerglings, very few units were required (it would be much easier if I had a few zealots around to help get in the way too). I'm also always behind on upgrades, so I took that into account (no upgrades for air).

So I lost my train of thought a little bit while writing that, except that I must note more that oracles are pretty damn good against hydras, especially when mixed with ground support. Zealot support is usually plentiful, and throwing them away is no problem if I can decimate his hydralisk count in exchange. Voidrays rarely are a good choice in the early game (unless it's a fast all-in, which oracles wouldn't have the energy to deal with), and units that I produce are always either a bunch of oracles or phoenixes (only vs mutas, of course). The oracles holding off hydralisks for one big push is all that needs to be done, since the rolling economy will allow me to create many templar and voidrays afterwards (voidrays will do splendidly once I actually get storm).

SO. Train of thought derailed while writing this, but long story short I've decided that I will stick with my fucked up PvZ build and that I need to practice blink micro Mohr. Thanks for reading, GL HF in whatever game you play!

P.S.
My current clan has some sort of sponsorship?? THEN I MUST REDIRECT YOU!!! TO OUR WEB PAGE!!!
http://nacgaming.net/

P.P.S.
Although no longer part of their community, Phalanx continues to support DarkOnyx. They have barely any activity, but with some more love maybe they might actually get their asses working . They're a great bunch of guys, and really the reason why I could get up to the league I am now.
https://www.facebook.com/DarkOnyxFTW

P.P.P.S.
Uhhh nothing interesting I could think of. 4 Corgis in a line!

*
Go to school - Laddder - Sleep - repeat. Who needs a social life anyways.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
July 14 2013 13:33 GMT
#2
The thing that worries me about mass Oracles for defence is that Mutas or Corruptors would absolutely wreck them, for obvious reasons. So your build may be able to defend early hydra attacks, but if the Zerg takes a very fast fourth and goes into Mutas instead, you're in trouble.

Void Rays can in fact defend a fast third against hydras, with the aid of cannons and zealots, and possibly sentries, I forget. You should check out rsvp's replay pack here, he's labelled the games for your convenience: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408248
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
July 14 2013 18:12 GMT
#3
Voidrays are actually much better for defending hydra attacks. If the zerg does a hydra max build then mass oracle will just die to it. It's also only viable when you surprise the zerg with it, and with no anti-air you can't reliably defend scouting. At that point, you're relying on your opponent to make a mistake for the build to be any way viable.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-14 21:37:07
July 14 2013 21:36 GMT
#4
Don't forget the opponent can target the oracles while kiting the Zealots, and they cannot shoot Mutalisks.
Sir.Phalanx
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Japan195 Posts
July 14 2013 23:28 GMT
#5
On July 14 2013 22:33 Salivanth wrote:
The thing that worries me about mass Oracles for defence is that Mutas or Corruptors would absolutely wreck them, for obvious reasons. So your build may be able to defend early hydra attacks, but if the Zerg takes a very fast fourth and goes into Mutas instead, you're in trouble.

Void Rays can in fact defend a fast third against hydras, with the aid of cannons and zealots, and possibly sentries, I forget. You should check out rsvp's replay pack here, he's labelled the games for your convenience: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408248


Hmmm perhaps using sentries along with voidrays would be stronger... I have always sucked balled with sentries so it may take a lot of getting used to though. I'll try to give those replays a look.

Also yes, mass oracles would outright lose to mutas or corruptors, and that's why I need to make sure to scout diligently. A lot of the time I've been able to scout their tech path of choice in time (sometimes way to close of a call) but even if they kill off a good deal of probes I still have come back.... then again, I might have just been able to come back because of the level I play at. One game that I played in which I had already made about 5 oracles and then scouted the mutalisks as they popped out of their eggs, I started pumping phoenix as fast as I could and simply went for a counter attack with oracles. 5 or so can deal a pretty good deal of damage and I think that they actually were able to kill off a base while he was busy microing... I lost a ton of probes but managed to get back with zeal/archon/phoenix.
Go to school - Laddder - Sleep - repeat. Who needs a social life anyways.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-17 05:25:16
July 17 2013 02:38 GMT
#6
A handful of Oracles are good for defending against speedlings, no doubt, but I feel like they aren't good to get stuck with in the late-game, or even mid-game, especially if Zerg goes for Spire tech. Void Rays are always better because they can shoot up and do bonus vs. Armored, so they can deal with Roaches and Corruptors. Hydras melt against HTs, Mutas die to some Phoenix (or Carriers if you go full-on Sky Toss; they're surprisingly good against their alleged counters).

The only problem I can see is if you get too greedy with expansions, then you can die pretty easily to a Hydra max because you won't have Storm yet. If you do, then you were really tech greedy and will die to an earlier Roach/Hydra push.

Btw, Oracles don't benefit from Air Weapons.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 45513
Britney 35605
Jaedong 1407
EffOrt 529
BeSt 397
actioN 318
Nal_rA 187
Dewaltoss 138
Mind 114
[sc1f]eonzerg 45
[ Show more ]
Backho 39
ToSsGirL 34
IntoTheRainbow 27
scan(afreeca) 23
Rock 21
soO 19
zelot 4
Dota 2
Gorgc5965
qojqva1535
syndereN156
febbydoto12
Counter-Strike
fl0m2463
kRYSTAL_24
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor470
Liquid`Hasu324
Trikslyr48
Other Games
singsing2182
B2W.Neo1030
Lowko594
crisheroes239
Happy155
KnowMe113
Fuzer 105
BananaSlamJamma68
Rex26
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream22351
Other Games
gamesdonequick1157
ComeBackTV 258
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 60
• poizon28 41
• EnkiAlexander 31
• Hinosc 10
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 24
• Michael_bg 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis7160
• Jankos2678
• Stunt626
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1h 40m
BSL
4h 40m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
18h 40m
RSL Revival
18h 40m
ByuN vs SHIN
Maru vs Krystianer
WardiTV Team League
20h 40m
Patches Events
1d 1h
BSL
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 8h
Replay Cast
1d 17h
Wardi Open
1d 20h
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Team League
2 days
GSL
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
WardiTV Team League
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-13
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
BSL Season 22
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Elite League 2026
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
2026 Changsha Offline CUP
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
NationLESS Cup
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.