|
I've been thinking about this for a while, but Idra being dropped from EG made me decide to actually write this, because I think there's a much larger point about SC2 that should be made here.
Look at what Idra wrote soon before being fired. What he said, more explicitly than most, is that SC2 teams (and this goes for all of esports, but I only care about SC2) don't succeed by doing well competitively. They succeed by getting attention. And the thing is, this is true. Watching State of the Game, you heard it in a much more respectful way from InControl. He took great exception to the idea that Idra might have trouble finding a new team. He's one of the most valuable players in starcraft, said InControl, and cited as proof his twitter followers and fan club and attention to the interviews he does.
This is not new, of course. I remember the Complexity owner (I think it was) talking about how he knows a player gets it when they ask to join and list their twitter followers instead of their results. I've seen Nazgul talk about how he was trying to get players to join Liquid, how he couldn't pay better than the competition, but how he could get them a lot more publicity and how he wished that they would recognize how important that was to their careers.
This is not a secret. Success as a foreign player is mostly about being popular, and being the one foreigner who can compete with the top Koreans is certainly one way to get there, but it is far from the only way.
I would argue, though, that this is in the long run very bad for the scene. Most directly, this is because if it's widely recognized, it undermines the whole enterprise. People can't internalize the fact that it's popularity driven, or the whole thing just becomes a celebrity golf tournament - the actual game being played is sort of interesting, but no one takes it seriously as a competition. Idra hasn't been a real top player for a while, but he has tons of fans who will rabidly insist that he is. His popularity (and that of everyone else, and the scene as a whole) rests on the fact that that they can make that claim plausibly. EG knows this - InControl has talked recently about how EG is trying to dispel this myth that they don't care about winning and so forth, but clearly it's not a myth when all the EG players believe (I think accurately) that their worth is determined by their twitter followers.
It's also a problem for the scene because it drastically reduces the incentive players have to get better. If it was an isolated scene, that might be ok, but with Koreans ready to come and prove just how horrible everyone is, it's not going to work. I think everyone understands that a scene where no foreigners can compete with Koreans will die. I've heard people talk about how disloyal Korean fans are - how they switch to the newest hottest player in an instant. That seems sort of shitty, but it means a much greater incentive to get better.
I think in many ways this is the best part of WCS. If there really are good, high-level tournaments on constantly with huge viewer numbers, it'll be a lot harder for a popular-but-not-great player to make tons of money streaming. At the same time, it'll be easier for a truly good player to make money through winnings. It'll also mean that to stay relevant and talked about, you need to be good enough to stay in the tournament. I think that's really good for the scene.
In all sports, teams are entertainment companies. But in mature, competitive sports, the most entertaining thing to watch is true do-everything-to-win competition between the world's best. The best way to sell merchandise is to win the championship. Having your players do interviews and go on talk shows is nice, but if it takes them away from practice and you lose a game because of it, it's not worth it. Of course, Starcraft is part of the way there - if winning wasn't important, JYP and Sage and so forth wouldn't have been picked up by foreign teams. But we have a long way to go before we can really claim we're a fully serious sport.
  
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
Good points but I think that a more stable scene will be established when all teams know how to market their players well, this will mean that players will not have to make large efforts to appear in a certain way (like IdrA or Dragon) and their teams can manage their public image, leading to the players being able to practice and get good at the game with less financial worry.
Teams that did this well in the past are the kespa teams as people like Jaedong, FlaSh and Bisu were marketed heavily on top of being great players, Bisu has been said to be able to retire into a kpop job if he never got good at SC2, indicating the power his image holds.
|
Yeah I think its true, charisma and popularity do play a very large role. Its hard to gauge how bad it is though (in terms of being like a celebrity golf tournament); generally speaking I don't think there are too many players that have the same type of exciting personality that Idra has, but still many people will tune in and cheer for their favorites. It seems like a lot of people are excited to see Korean games too, so they're not completely focused on their own nationality either.
I feel like esports is actually fairly well established from what I see. But then again you had news of IPL4 shutting down a while ago, so I'm not sure how sustainable it is. Especially with this new format introduced by Blizzard, if foreigners continue to do more and more poorly, I wonder if interest in the scene will just drop off?
|
On May 11 2013 00:47 Targe wrote:
Good points but I think that a more stable scene will be established when all teams know how to market their players well, this will mean that players will not have to make large efforts to appear in a certain way (like IdrA or Dragon) and their teams can manage their public image, leading to the players being able to practice and get good at the game with less financial worry.
Teams that did this well in the past are the kespa teams as people like Jaedong, FlaSh and Bisu were marketed heavily on top of being great players, Bisu has been said to be able to retire into a kpop job if he never got good at SC2, indicating the power his image holds.
Of course players will be marketed. And players will be expected to know how to give a good interview and so forth. But it wasn't a coincidence that Jaedong, FlaSh, and Bisu were the ones Kespa marketed so heavily. It was seen as much, much easier to market someone up to that level of popularity when they were the most successful players. But the league encourages the best competition, and then markets the players and storylines that naturally emerge.
And of course it won't ever be 100% based on skill. Even in soccer and basketball and so forth, I'm sure players get higher salaries if they're big fan favorites. But the skill component is much higher.
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 11 2013 00:58 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 00:47 Targe wrote:
Good points but I think that a more stable scene will be established when all teams know how to market their players well, this will mean that players will not have to make large efforts to appear in a certain way (like IdrA or Dragon) and their teams can manage their public image, leading to the players being able to practice and get good at the game with less financial worry.
Teams that did this well in the past are the kespa teams as people like Jaedong, FlaSh and Bisu were marketed heavily on top of being great players, Bisu has been said to be able to retire into a kpop job if he never got good at SC2, indicating the power his image holds. Of course players will be marketed. And players will be expected to know how to give a good interview and so forth. But it wasn't a coincidence that Jaedong, FlaSh, and Bisu were the ones Kespa marketed so heavily. It was seen as much, much easier to market someone up to that level of popularity when they were the most successful players. But the league encourages the best competition, and then markets the players and storylines that naturally emerge. And of course it won't ever be 100% based on skill. Even in soccer and basketball and so forth, I'm sure players get higher salaries if they're big fan favorites. But the skill component is much higher.
Yes they were good players, however if you compare KT's treatment of FlaSh to how TSL marketed Polt there is a stark difference, there have been many teams so far in SC2 that have crumbled and a decent portion of those didn't market their players well enough.
|
Your celebrity golf metaphor is a bit much. There's a difference between people who got famous for starcraft continuing to play, versus people who got famous for acting playing a game they suck at. Also, keep in mind that college football/basketball is still very popular, regardless of the fact that most of the players can't make it in the pros. There's no set rule on how much skill versus how much popularity a player needs to be "worth it". That's why there's controversy.
|
I think SC2 always has been personality driven. Before it was even released all the infrastructure and "esports" talk was being built up. People fell in love with personalities like Day9, Incontrol, and yes even Idra. These were all guys who had a youthful passion for BW, but saw the chance to make a legitimate career in SC2. Now I think the esports machinery has overshadowed the game itself. That might be because of all the jobs and money at stake, the merits of SC2 as a game, or it could be that there is a smaller group that is truly passionate about the game but are drowned out by the many who are attracted by the glamour and personalities in it. Sad to say I belong to the latter, because I still don't find SC2 very compelling to watch or play.
|
On May 11 2013 01:09 Treehead wrote:
Your celebrity golf metaphor is a bit much. There's a difference between people who got famous for starcraft continuing to play, versus people who got famous for acting playing a game they suck at. Also, keep in mind that college football/basketball is still very popular, regardless of the fact that most of the players can't make it in the pros. There's no set rule on how much skill versus how much popularity a player needs to be "worth it". That's why there's controversy.
I'm not saying it's like celebrity golf now - I'm using that to explain why the entertainment value is fundamentally tied to the fact that it doesn't look like players are picked just for their popularity.
I don't think college football-basketball is a counterexample at all. Sure, the players are less skilled, but the competition is real. No one doubts that the teams are doing everything they can to win. They are playing the best players they can find. Of course they're limited by the "you have to be in college" rule. But the stars are (roughly) the ones who are best at the game, and no one thinks that the teams recruit players based on their social media presence.
|
I like SC2 and eSports in general because they're not too serious. It feels more "real" than professional sports to me because there aren't really any standards on what people can and can't say. Unprofessionalism also creates more hype, just look at practically anything PartinG has said since he won BWC, especially when he made the group of death in code S.
|
Katowice25012 Posts
This is only a difference of perspective. StarCraft is wonderful because it has both performance elements (ie guys doing on stage ceremonies, catering to fans with silly trash talk, that kind of thing) as well as aspects that require mountains of training to achieve skill. The problem is that the people who are willing to admit and embrace that are those on the inside themselves, while fans generally go around considering this purely a meritocracy based on skill (which it never has been - even in older games such as BW). Esports needs to be aware of this and willing to present itself in a fun way, to recognize that the parts that make it unique and interesting are those that are outside the realm of pure game skill.
The transition period is a tad awkward as people realize that what they're a part of is part entertainment part competition, but as the industry matures people will align on it and things will be consistent again. If you look at how the Korean BW leagues were always set up, they borrowed heavily from the performance aspect of whatever the Korean WWF equivalent is and I have no idea why no one ever talks about that. Both GOM and OGN have always been very open about how they try to present themselves to fans in a similar manner, which is where you get the super stylized over-the-top intros of the OSL.
|
On May 11 2013 03:51 heyoka wrote:
This is only a difference of perspective. StarCraft is wonderful because it has both performance elements (ie guys doing on stage ceremonies, catering to fans with silly trash talk, that kind of thing) as well as aspects that require mountains of training to achieve skill. The problem is that the people who are willing to admit and embrace that are those on the inside themselves, while fans generally go around considering this purely a meritocracy based on skill (which it never has been - even in older games such as BW). Esports needs to be aware of this and willing to present itself in a fun way, to recognize that the parts that make it unique and interesting are those that are outside the realm of pure game skill.
The transition period is a tad awkward as people realize that what they're a part of is part entertainment part competition, but as the industry matures people will align on it and things will be consistent again. If you look at how the Korean BW leagues were always set up, they borrowed heavily from the performance aspect of whatever the Korean WWF equivalent is and I have no idea why no one ever talks about that. Both GOM and OGN have always been very open about how they try to present themselves to fans in a similar manner, which is where you get the super stylized over-the-top intros of the OSL.
I guess the question is just want you want it to be. I mean, yes, obviously right now it's about both ceremonies and trash talk and also about game skill. But is that really waht makes it "unique and interesting"? Why does SC2 need to stand out through trash talk instead of the through the appeal of the game itself?
I think it's a lot more entertaining if it's pure competition. There's a reason that people get excited about GSL finals in a way they don't get excited about a show match, even if the same two people are playing. It's about the competition itself meaning something and the title having importance. Some things about WWF are probably good things to use. Cool intros and stuff are good. But I don't think you need to undermine the competition in order to do it. People really do naturally have personality. Football players do touchdown dances even though no one thinks that their job depends on it. GOM might think of itself as drawing from WWF, but they get a lot of flack for things like seeds into code S precisely because the fans feel like that cheapens the tournament. You certainly need to find the cool personalities and stories and market them. But if people get the impression that they're being manufactured rather than found, I think you start to lose those people as fans.
It's easy to say that the fans will get on board with the entertainment component, but I'm not sure that's clear. A lot of people follow this because they think of it like a sport, and they want others to take it seriously as a sport. And I think it's perfectly possible to be successful that way, just like lots of other sports have been. It's also possible to be (less) successful as a show, like WWF, that no one thinks of as serious competition. But I don't know of any precedent for something that is sort of half and half. I think embracing the entertainment component in the way you describe fundamentally means giving up on the claim that it really is sport-like.
|
I'd like to point out that in sports, it's the most awful fans who follow whichever team/player is doing the best at that moment. We call those people bandwaggoners.
|
On May 11 2013 06:53 Jerubaal wrote:
I'd like to point out that in sports, it's the most awful fans who follow whichever team/player is doing the best at that moment. We call those people bandwaggoners.
True, but it happens a lot. Also, there's a lot more "root for the home team" mentality in regular sports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
