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Been a long time since I wrote up a blog entry here, but I have been thinking about the identity of the races in the game since I saw the whole "One Goal" balance approach and I feel they missed a big part of racial identity, this specifically targets the Protoss concept of being the biggest and baddest mofo on the block.
First the offending units: Marines, Roach, Marauder, Hellbat, Swarm Host, and I would throw the Widow mine in there as well.
What is wrong with all of these units? Way too much HP.
Marauders have 2.5x as much HP as the Firebat did in BW. Hellbats have another 10hp on top of that along with 0 gas cost.
Roaches come in around 1.8x as much hp as a hydralisk.
Marines get a free 5hp from the start and have an upgrade that puts them at 1.375x the BW marine hp total.
The Swarm Host is probably the least offensive, coming in around 160hp compared to the Lurkers 125, both acting as siege units. This of course doesn't account for the free HP that Locusts give, but that would lead into an entirely different discussion about their attack mechanics etc.
And of course the worst offender, the Widow Mine. This little bugger was made to be the modern upgrade to the Spider mine, and it comes in at a whopping 4.5x hp mark, equivalent to the hellion, and more than the vulture used to have. This thing just doesn't even make sense, it's not a mine, it's a mini-fortress.
Why is this a problem? Because Zealots lost 10 shield and Stalkers lost 6 damage in the transition from BW to SC2.
You want to know why Protoss gateway units suck? Because everyone else got free HP all over the place.
Nothing about Protoss says "big and bad" anymore. In fact, they are generally the small kids on the block fighting for a chance to play along with the other kids. Zealots aren't the scary towers of HP and damage that they were in Brood war because everyone else has units that are faster with equal damage output at range (roach and marauder). Stalkers aren't the "walking siege tanks" that Dragoons once were because their damage output is paltry compared to virtually everything else on the field AND they lose out in the range game where every other ranged attacker seems to be shooting further than ever before (yet another problem).
Blizzard really dropped the ball with maintaining the identity of the Protoss race. Zealots were scary because they felt big and unkillable. Marines felt weak by comparison, and Terran domination of the BW scene just didn't make sense, those players really were just THAT good.
I guess most people have come to be ok with the SC2 Terran Bio > all world we live in, I miss the days of drawn out siege play.
Terran wins used to feel epic, but now, I just expect them, and it really affects the feel of the game as a whole.
 
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I feel like you complain about the right thing for all the wrong reasons.
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is this Idra pretending he plays protoss?
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999 Posts
Didn't you play zerg in WoL? I thought I remembered you complaining about how horrible they were in comparison to Protoss.
In fact, I found the following in your post history in the last year:
"Still more problematic. Since I'm delving into the realm of actually removing force field, is the Zealot. If you give it even 1 more damage on it's standard attack, Zerglings become essentially worthless in the ZvP MU, and we would likely see 4-gates come back around with a vengeance as even a handful of Zealots would mow through Zerglings like crazy.
Force fields are problematic to the balance of the game, but Gateway units are JUST weak enough to not be OP when you look at the numbers."
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"I'm not talking about Terran here, I will agree that bio is bullshit, but I would go about changing things with bio in my perfect world, not gateway units.
Back to the ZvP relationship. Zealots don't lose horribly to roaches. In the current game, they lose due to the roaches speed and range, but if you blindly 1A them vs each other, equal numbers of Zealots will largely break even or even come out ahead. Not bad for a mineral-only investment.
Now here's where the problem comes when you suggest stat buffs to Zealots AND Stalkers to make up for the loss of force field.
Zealots will make Zerglings useless. Hell, even upping Stalker damage vs light to 12 makes Zerglings useless as they now kill them in 3 shots instead of 4 (part of why the +2 blink timings are so powerful).
So, since Zealots with even 1 addition damage in the current game ALREADY shut down lings, you can't buff their damage without effectively removing lings from ZvP. Stalkers ALREADY win vs Roaches in any equal-supply fights and their cost-effectiveness scales up insanely with the addition of Blink, so I guess you can't buff there either...
Where exactly are you going to buff gateway units without screwing the whole ZvP MU?"
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"People are missing the big point of this whole issue.
Interesting != effective.
Roaches are fine, the big problem is burrow-move/regen are not effective, so they don't get used.
No reason to scrap the whole unit because a couple people think it's imba.
If we're using that logic, we should start by scrapping the marine.
Terran really needs that right now..."
Key Quotes
1. "Gateway units are JUST weak enough to not be OP when you look at the numbers."
2. "Roaches are fine, the big problem is burrow-move/regen are not effective, so they don't get used. No reason to scrap the whole unit because a couple people think it's imba."
Now suddenly, gateway units are the "small kids on the block fighting for a chance to play along with the other kids"? Would it be outside the realm of possibility for me to suggest that maybe balance arguments are more in your head than you'd be inclined to believe? Try playing terran for a bit, and then go random IMO. You may find the game becomes magically balanced.
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I don't understand why you think it's a valid argument to compare units that are visually similar from two completely different games when they don't serve the same purpose. SC2 is not another expansion for BW, don't treat it like one.
"Marauders have 2.5x as much HP as the Firebat did in BW."
So what? This isn't a BW port, this is apples and oranges, and you can't (or at least shouldn't) try to draw these arbitrary parallels.
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Treehead, you completely missed the whole point of this rant.
It has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with design. The game is a lot more balanced now than it was in WoL. I played Zerg then and play Zerg now and still agree with everything I've said in all my post history, none of that perspective has changed.
FF is still a stupid, game-breaking mechanic that encourages both sides to do nothing unless they can outright win.
Marines are still OP as all hell and the entire Terran race is crippled otherwise because of this singular unit.
Zerg still lacks aggressive options in the mid-game.
I think HotS has helped to balance things out, but its tenuous at best. Blizzard has effectively balanced their broke shit by adding more broke shit on top of it to counter-balance. It is definitely a move in the right direction, but I would have much preferred Blizzard addressing their core issues. Alas, I don't work at Blizzard and I don't get paid to design/balance games.
Now, with balance set aside, and hopefully things being understood that I am not attacking the balance of the game at this current junction, the design of HotS is still shit.
Mech is essentially dead at this point. We see some Hellbats and some Widow Mines, but we almost never see tanks or thors, let alone BCs. With the addition of the Widow Mine (remember, it was supposed to "fix mech") Bio has firmly took hold of the go-to composition. Mech is relegated completely to being a niche style. Awesome job there!
The Hellbat is equally bad. What Blizzard thought would allow for some sort of buffer-style unit that would enable mech to make a comeback has turned into yet another replacement for siege tanks in TvZ.
The Swarm Host was sold to us as "the new lurker" when it realistically has about as much in common with the lurker as the infestor does: They're all known for burrowing. This beauty of a unit offers Zerg YET ANOTHER way to not really be able to attack into a fortified position in a cost-effective manner throughout the mid-game. Exactly what Zerg needed!
The Oracle, like everything else that comes from the Stargate seems far too niche to be useful.
The Tempest is a balance nightmare waiting to happen.
The Void Ray is already a train wreck and even less interesting than the WoL version.
The Viper, IMO, is the only well-thought-out, well-executed addition that came from HotS. It truly does fill in some gaps for the Zerg army, and I don't have much to complain about here. Bravo Blizzard!
So yes, I still stand by the fact that if gateway units were buffed AT ALL, it would tip the scales of balance heavily in Protoss' favor.
What would the solution to this noted issue then be? Obvious: Nerf all the units I mentioned in my OP.
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On April 24 2013 03:42 im a roc wrote:
I don't understand why you think it's a valid argument to compare units that are visually similar from two completely different games when they don't serve the same purpose. SC2 is not another expansion for BW, don't treat it like one.
"Marauders have 2.5x as much HP as the Firebat did in BW."
So what? This isn't a BW port, this is apples and oranges, and you can't (or at least shouldn't) try to draw these arbitrary parallels.
While I understand your point, these parallels are not arbitrary.
I agree that the Marauder and the Firebat have many difference, but they also have many similarities and both fulfill the role of "tanky bio unit".
One of these does this with 50hp, the other does it with 120hp. A fairly notable difference, and the difference that I am pointing out in this rant.
We could talk all day about how different the SC2 Zergling is from the BW Zergling, but at the end of the day, they're still both filling the same role.
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A lot of times I read posters' responses before I read the blog itself. Maybe for the same reason I read the questions before I read the story back in middle school. I duno.
After reading a few of the responses I was intrigued enough to read the OP and found that if I had typed something up on the subject instead, it'd be me with the 2 star blog, haha.
I agreed with almost everything you said. You didn't put a lot of effort into it, I think, because you didn't think it that worthwhile (and partially because you knew you'd catch hate for it), so some people may have misunderstood, but the gist of it didn't escape me, and for what it's worth, I feel (nearly) the same.
edit: Same goes for the replies you offered the critics.
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Yeah, I try not to over think the OP because either it sparks discussion or it doesn't.
I just want internet friends to argue with 
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its not Idra pretending to be protoss its the actual artosis!
played zerg complained about protoss. switched to protoss complains about zerg and terran!
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999 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:43 Jermstuddog wrote:
Treehead, you completely missed the whole point of this rant.
It has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with design. The game is a lot more balanced now than it was in WoL. I played Zerg then and play Zerg now and still agree with everything I've said in all my post history, none of that perspective has changed.
FF is still a stupid, game-breaking mechanic that encourages both sides to do nothing unless they can outright win.
Marines are still OP as all hell and the entire Terran race is crippled otherwise because of this singular unit.
Zerg still lacks aggressive options in the mid-game.
I think HotS has helped to balance things out, but its tenuous at best. Blizzard has effectively balanced their broke shit by adding more broke shit on top of it to counter-balance. It is definitely a move in the right direction, but I would have much preferred Blizzard addressing their core issues. Alas, I don't work at Blizzard and I don't get paid to design/balance games.
Now, with balance set aside, and hopefully things being understood that I am not attacking the balance of the game at this current junction, the design of HotS is still shit.
Mech is essentially dead at this point. We see some Hellbats and some Widow Mines, but we almost never see tanks or thors, let alone BCs. With the addition of the Widow Mine (remember, it was supposed to "fix mech") Bio has firmly took hold of the go-to composition. Mech is relegated completely to being a niche style. Awesome job there!
The Hellbat is equally bad. What Blizzard thought would allow for some sort of buffer-style unit that would enable mech to make a comeback has turned into yet another replacement for siege tanks in TvZ.
The Swarm Host was sold to us as "the new lurker" when it realistically has about as much in common with the lurker as the infestor does: They're all known for burrowing. This beauty of a unit offers Zerg YET ANOTHER way to not really be able to attack into a fortified position in a cost-effective manner throughout the mid-game. Exactly what Zerg needed!
The Oracle, like everything else that comes from the Stargate seems far too niche to be useful.
The Tempest is a balance nightmare waiting to happen.
The Void Ray is already a train wreck and even less interesting than the WoL version.
The Viper, IMO, is the only well-thought-out, well-executed addition that came from HotS. It truly does fill in some gaps for the Zerg army, and I don't have much to complain about here. Bravo Blizzard!
So yes, I still stand by the fact that if gateway units were buffed AT ALL, it would tip the scales of balance heavily in Protoss' favor.
What would the solution to this noted issue then be? Obvious: Nerf all the units I mentioned in my OP.
I see. So your argument is that you still think that buffing gateway units would overwhelm the largely roach defenses that zergs employ to hold off timing attacks. So of course, the different and much more reasonable approach would be to... nerf... roaches...
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On April 24 2013 04:40 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 03:43 Jermstuddog wrote:
Treehead, you completely missed the whole point of this rant.
It has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with design. The game is a lot more balanced now than it was in WoL. I played Zerg then and play Zerg now and still agree with everything I've said in all my post history, none of that perspective has changed.
FF is still a stupid, game-breaking mechanic that encourages both sides to do nothing unless they can outright win.
Marines are still OP as all hell and the entire Terran race is crippled otherwise because of this singular unit.
Zerg still lacks aggressive options in the mid-game.
I think HotS has helped to balance things out, but its tenuous at best. Blizzard has effectively balanced their broke shit by adding more broke shit on top of it to counter-balance. It is definitely a move in the right direction, but I would have much preferred Blizzard addressing their core issues. Alas, I don't work at Blizzard and I don't get paid to design/balance games.
Now, with balance set aside, and hopefully things being understood that I am not attacking the balance of the game at this current junction, the design of HotS is still shit.
Mech is essentially dead at this point. We see some Hellbats and some Widow Mines, but we almost never see tanks or thors, let alone BCs. With the addition of the Widow Mine (remember, it was supposed to "fix mech") Bio has firmly took hold of the go-to composition. Mech is relegated completely to being a niche style. Awesome job there!
The Hellbat is equally bad. What Blizzard thought would allow for some sort of buffer-style unit that would enable mech to make a comeback has turned into yet another replacement for siege tanks in TvZ.
The Swarm Host was sold to us as "the new lurker" when it realistically has about as much in common with the lurker as the infestor does: They're all known for burrowing. This beauty of a unit offers Zerg YET ANOTHER way to not really be able to attack into a fortified position in a cost-effective manner throughout the mid-game. Exactly what Zerg needed!
The Oracle, like everything else that comes from the Stargate seems far too niche to be useful.
The Tempest is a balance nightmare waiting to happen.
The Void Ray is already a train wreck and even less interesting than the WoL version.
The Viper, IMO, is the only well-thought-out, well-executed addition that came from HotS. It truly does fill in some gaps for the Zerg army, and I don't have much to complain about here. Bravo Blizzard!
So yes, I still stand by the fact that if gateway units were buffed AT ALL, it would tip the scales of balance heavily in Protoss' favor.
What would the solution to this noted issue then be? Obvious: Nerf all the units I mentioned in my OP. I see. So your argument is that you still think that buffing gateway units would overwhelm the largely roach defenses that zergs employ to hold off timing attacks. So of course, the different and much more reasonable approach would be to... nerf... roaches...
There you go! The issue is not that gateway units are too weak, but that roaches are too strong. After that crapshoot of a unit is fixed from a design perpective, then maybe we look at things like force field from a balance perpective and in the end, we have a much healthier game where concepts like positioning and micro have a lot more meaning than "F+click".
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Another way to look at this is:
In BW, hydralisks were considered relatively tanky units. Here is a list of non-protoss ground units from BW with more HP than Hydras:
Siege Tank
Goliath
Lurker
Ultralisk
That's it. Literally every other non-protoss ground unit in the entire game had 80hp or less.
Now think about how far 80hp goes in SC2.
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On April 24 2013 03:58 Jermstuddog wrote:Yeah, I try not to over think the OP because either it sparks discussion or it doesn't. I just want internet friends to argue with
Unfortunately, I mainly just agree here.
It's pretty obvious to me that in BW, Protoss, Terran, and Zerg, were the Strength, Intel, and Agility RTS equivalents. Now that Protoss is no longer the "Strength" class, it just doesn't seem as much of a "boss fight" (side-scroller ftw) against their gateway units. I do miss that.
I'm not entirely sure that made sense to anyone but me. Oh well, *post*
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I can see where you're coming from dan, it lines up with my argument well enough, I see where we agree.
It's almost as if they tried to flip the roles of Terran and Protoss in SC2. Giving Terran the straight up beef and resilience with bio and forcing Protoss into an 'int' style with force field and storm being absolutely critical, but the feel is all wrong.
In BW:
Protoss felt awesome because their units just didn't die.
Terran felt awesome because the other guy couldn't even get to you before exploding.
Zerg felt awesome because your opponent couldn't move without you trampling him down.
In SC2:
Terran pisses me off because their units don't die.
Protoss feels cheesy as shit.
Zerg feels potentially broken if you don't die before you get to 5 bases.
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Yea, i'm sure that's realistic... 100% every time you lost in bw you said "oh man that's so awesome i really appreciate the fact that protoss units don't die or i can't even get to a terran army!"....
Oh and nice way to defeat your own argument about the marine+marauder...
"think about how far 80 hp goes in sc2"
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Why does everyone always try to use these "gotcha" style arguments, trying to point to my ladder results like they're even relevant. I do as well on ladder as I practice to do. If I had questions about how to do better, I wouldn't post it in the blogs section. I come here to discuss the design and feel of the game, not claim imba or ask for tips. I understand the game just fine and my results have a lot more to do with lack of time to put into making myself better than anything like balance.
Stop acting like I'm just here to further some dastardly plan to up my ladder ranking. Zerg was easily the best race at then end of WOL and my ladder rank reflected that. I stopped playing because the game was shitty and stale. I am trying to argue points that make the game more dynamic, unique, and fun.
MMMM, force fields, and mass roaches is not that...
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EPT
