EPTHow did you become an atheist? - Page 11
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
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Fumanchu
Canada669 Posts
On April 24 2013 06:23 Feartheguru wrote: This debate is truly pointless. Anyone that does not believe in the great magenta honeybadger is going to hell. It says so right on this piece of paper I just wrote on. I'll be laughing at all you atheists and christians burning while I enjoy my 40 virgins beside the great one. If you don't believe me prove me wrong. His son the ferret skinned himself to keep you guys warm and yet you refuse to believe in him? I feel bad for you guys I really do. But... the choice was yours and you chose willfully chose to ignore what's right beside your eyes, I wish it could be some other way but, sad life for you guys. If you believe it's pointless, then stop cluttering the thread with useless comments so that those of us who don't find it useless can discuss. I'm not atheist yet, but I feel I'm on the cusp of becoming one. I've been a Christian since I was 5, but I didn't really challenge the ideas of my religion or question the scripture I was being taught until about two years ago. I just followed what I followed blindly. I KNEW God existed and there wasn't anyone that could tell me different. I grew up in a bubble. But then I started travelling abroad and I ran into a vast array of people who all believed different things. People who were really nice and respectful and believed in their religions just as adamantly as I believed in mine. And like me, they weren't trying to convince anyone else of what they believed, but they also weren't up for any discussion of the possibility that they might be following the "wrong" religion. So I returned to the leaders of my church, and several other churches, and I began questioning them on the principles and practices that they had brought me up on. And every one of them directed me towards the scripture. But what if the scriptures were false I said? And no one that I talked to would deviate away from that. The scriptures were true because God wrote them through the people he chose. No one would even entertain the idea that maybe God doesn't exist. It seemed that when I had questions of God's plan for me, or his divinity, then I got tremendous support and outreach. However, when I started questioning my beliefs, I was pushed into a corner and left there. Which has forced me to sort of figure things out on my own. There's three things with which keep me back from becoming an atheist. 1) Logically it makes the most sense to be a Christian. I think about these four scenarios: A) I'm Christian, I die, God exists, I go to heaven B) I'm Christian, I die, God doesn't exist, I return to nothingness C) I'm an atheist, I die, God exists, I go to hell. D) I'm an atheist, I die, God doesn't exist, I return to nothingness When I look at these options, really it makes the most sense to be Christian. If I'm wrong I get the same reward as you when I die, but if I'm right, I get an eternity of happiness rather than an eternity of suffering. 2) I cannot as of yet wrap my head around returning to nothingness. Just in the same way that it hurts my brain to think that once there was nothing, and then all of a sudden there was something. I don't want my accumulation of experiences to end upon death. I just can't get past it. 3) Finally, and this ties in with number 1, is that being a Christian is not a suffering experience. At least not in North America. The only thing that I would struggle with is premarital sex. Every other commandment or teaching within in the bible is already followed by most people trying to live their lives. There's really no down side to being a Christian. Every person that has gotten to know me hasn't been affected by my Christian status. It's never hindered me in relationships of any kind, in any way. A lot of people liken a belief in God to a belief in santa, or the tooth fairy. I personally see no harm in a grown man who believes in santa or the tooth fairy. If you simply believe what you believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe it, most people respect you for it. Even if they don't agree with you. Anyway I'm really enjoying the different discussions in this thread so far, just thought I'd throw down where I'm at. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Also, you might go to hell for not worshipping the flying spaghetti monster. There's no way to know. I could come up with an infinite amount of ridiculous claims, and tell you that you're going to hell forever if you don't do as I say. You'd better obey me, because you have nothing to lose. If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter, but if I'm right, you'll burn. AND, if some forms of christianity are true, you're going to hell for being the wrong christian. But most importantly, there is no evidence for it, and therefor no reason to believe it. (Sorry to the guy who sent me the "evidence" for christianity, it's really weaksauce  )The only reason you take christianity seriously is because you were raised in to it. If you were born muslim, you'd use the same argument for islam. And if you weren't born in to anything, you'd recognize it all for the bullshit that it is. As for becoming nothing, just because it hurts your brain doesn't mean it's not true, lol. Many parts of the universe are unintuitive, like quantum mechanics for example. As for what you want... that has nothing to do with what's actually true. But if you want to keep lying to yourself, I can't stop you. If there was evidence for christianity or islam, I would believe it, even though I wouldn't like it, because it would mean innocent humans are tortured forever (and even bad humans, eternal torture is too much). But just because I dislike doesn't mean I won't believe it. Similarly, I could come up with my own religion, or version of an existing religion, to believe that I will be able to live for as long as I wish. I would prefer this over dying at the age of ~90, but that's no reason to lie to myself and ignore evidence. | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:57 trias_e wrote: Even if this is true, it seems to me that if God exists and created us, then God's purpose for us was to create our own purpose. Otherwise why are we (hat tip to Sartre) forced to do so as part of our existence? If this is true, then our subjective purpose is our only purpose. Of course, I think that most religious folks would say that God's purpose for us is for us to choose 'Correctly', but I don't think this follows whatsoever if one holds a more neutral (non-religious) view of what God is. Actually that's a common misconception. God does not create us to test us, the only sense to which that is even a little true is that God expects us to act morally, but it's not a test and if it were the bible is clear it's one we all failed. | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
On April 24 2013 07:20 Fumanchu wrote: If you believe it's pointless, then stop cluttering the thread with useless comments so that those of us who don't find it useless can discuss. I'm not atheist yet, but I feel I'm on the cusp of becoming one. I've been a Christian since I was 5, but I didn't really challenge the ideas of my religion or question the scripture I was being taught until about two years ago. I just followed what I followed blindly. I KNEW God existed and there wasn't anyone that could tell me different. I grew up in a bubble. But then I started travelling abroad and I ran into a vast array of people who all believed different things. People who were really nice and respectful and believed in their religions just as adamantly as I believed in mine. And like me, they weren't trying to convince anyone else of what they believed, but they also weren't up for any discussion of the possibility that they might be following the "wrong" religion. So I returned to the leaders of my church, and several other churches, and I began questioning them on the principles and practices that they had brought me up on. And every one of them directed me towards the scripture. But what if the scriptures were false I said? And no one that I talked to would deviate away from that. The scriptures were true because God wrote them through the people he chose. No one would even entertain the idea that maybe God doesn't exist. It seemed that when I had questions of God's plan for me, or his divinity, then I got tremendous support and outreach. However, when I started questioning my beliefs, I was pushed into a corner and left there. Which has forced me to sort of figure things out on my own. There's three things with which keep me back from becoming an atheist. 1) Logically it makes the most sense to be a Christian. I think about these four scenarios: A) I'm Christian, I die, God exists, I go to heaven B) I'm Christian, I die, God doesn't exist, I return to nothingness C) I'm an atheist, I die, God exists, I go to hell. D) I'm an atheist, I die, God doesn't exist, I return to nothingness When I look at these options, really it makes the most sense to be Christian. If I'm wrong I get the same reward as you when I die, but if I'm right, I get an eternity of happiness rather than an eternity of suffering. 2) I cannot as of yet wrap my head around returning to nothingness. Just in the same way that it hurts my brain to think that once there was nothing, and then all of a sudden there was something. I don't want my accumulation of experiences to end upon death. I just can't get past it. 3) Finally, and this ties in with number 1, is that being a Christian is not a suffering experience. At least not in North America. The only thing that I would struggle with is premarital sex. Every other commandment or teaching within in the bible is already followed by most people trying to live their lives. There's really no down side to being a Christian. Every person that has gotten to know me hasn't been affected by my Christian status. It's never hindered me in relationships of any kind, in any way. A lot of people liken a belief in God to a belief in santa, or the tooth fairy. I personally see no harm in a grown man who believes in santa or the tooth fairy. If you simply believe what you believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe it, most people respect you for it. Even if they don't agree with you. Anyway I'm really enjoying the different discussions in this thread so far, just thought I'd throw down where I'm at. I'll try to help you along a bit. With regards to: 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager. Read that, and read the arguments against it in the wiki, and if you understand that, you should be fine. If you're feeling squirrelly, read my blog about it, but that might just confuse you. 2. Stop being a pussy. No, sorry, I'm just kidding. This was probably one of the harder things for me to accept as well (not that I was every religious, but in accepting that I don't know what happens when I die, and if I'm being honest it looks like a whole lot of nothing). There is no easy solution, just be honest with yourself. Does the world you see around you seem like it was made by an all-loving, all powerful being? Doesn't heaven and hell seem like something people made up? Finally, try to imagine your existence before you were born. Can't do it right? Well, that is probably what being dead is like. Is that so bad? 3. Is that really the way you want to live? Believing in fairy tales because they make you feel better? I could never respect myself if I did that, but that is me. Also, look at all the damage that can happen when peoples' fairy tales don't get along. People die. Hope that helps. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On April 24 2013 07:20 Fumanchu wrote: If you believe it's pointless, then stop cluttering the thread with useless comments so that those of us who don't find it useless can discuss. I'm not atheist yet, but I feel I'm on the cusp of becoming one. I've been a Christian since I was 5, but I didn't really challenge the ideas of my religion or question the scripture I was being taught until about two years ago. I just followed what I followed blindly. I KNEW God existed and there wasn't anyone that could tell me different. I grew up in a bubble. But then I started travelling abroad and I ran into a vast array of people who all believed different things. People who were really nice and respectful and believed in their religions just as adamantly as I believed in mine. And like me, they weren't trying to convince anyone else of what they believed, but they also weren't up for any discussion of the possibility that they might be following the "wrong" religion. So I returned to the leaders of my church, and several other churches, and I began questioning them on the principles and practices that they had brought me up on. And every one of them directed me towards the scripture. But what if the scriptures were false I said? And no one that I talked to would deviate away from that. The scriptures were true because God wrote them through the people he chose. No one would even entertain the idea that maybe God doesn't exist. It seemed that when I had questions of God's plan for me, or his divinity, then I got tremendous support and outreach. However, when I started questioning my beliefs, I was pushed into a corner and left there. Which has forced me to sort of figure things out on my own. There's three things with which keep me back from becoming an atheist. 1) Logically it makes the most sense to be a Christian. I think about these four scenarios: A) I'm Christian, I die, God exists, I go to heaven B) I'm Christian, I die, God doesn't exist, I return to nothingness C) I'm an atheist, I die, God exists, I go to hell. D) I'm an atheist, I die, God doesn't exist, I return to nothingness When I look at these options, really it makes the most sense to be Christian. If I'm wrong I get the same reward as you when I die, but if I'm right, I get an eternity of happiness rather than an eternity of suffering. 2) I cannot as of yet wrap my head around returning to nothingness. Just in the same way that it hurts my brain to think that once there was nothing, and then all of a sudden there was something. I don't want my accumulation of experiences to end upon death. I just can't get past it. 3) Finally, and this ties in with number 1, is that being a Christian is not a suffering experience. At least not in North America. The only thing that I would struggle with is premarital sex. Every other commandment or teaching within in the bible is already followed by most people trying to live their lives. There's really no down side to being a Christian. Every person that has gotten to know me hasn't been affected by my Christian status. It's never hindered me in relationships of any kind, in any way. A lot of people liken a belief in God to a belief in santa, or the tooth fairy. I personally see no harm in a grown man who believes in santa or the tooth fairy. If you simply believe what you believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe it, most people respect you for it. Even if they don't agree with you. Anyway I'm really enjoying the different discussions in this thread so far, just thought I'd throw down where I'm at. Your point 1 is just sad, if you think your own christian god is so stupid he can't see through your little game.. You might as well be an atheist and on your deathbed declare yourself a christian. Anyways, there are a million gods and deities that you should believe in by this logic, believing the Christian one isn't improving your chances. You don't believe my honeybadger, just as likely to send you to hell. Not even mentioning a god that sends people to hell for not believing in him, talk about vanity, creating everything in the world just to be loved. | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
On April 24 2013 06:09 vOdToasT wrote: Wait a minute Surely it would be possible to be omnipotent (if we assume that omnipotence itself is possible, which I don't, but whatever) and evil? Given the nature of life in this universe, if a god existed and was omnipotent, he would have to be evil, or at the very least indifferent. Are we supposed to learn morality from someone who lacks it? If we're talking about the Christian God, he isn't bounded by morality, as he is outside it as its creator. The words good and evil hardly fit God properly. Morality doesn't bind animals, nor plants, nor general matter. It only binds humans. Every other commandment or teaching within in the bible is already followed by most people trying to live their lives. There's really no down side to being a Christian. Show me one person who follows all the commandments of the Bible perfectly :O Also, given the general hate of Christians shown by many netizens of the US and Europe nowadays, I'd say that's at LEAST one downside to being a Christian, although there are others too. And if islam is right, you're going to hell for being a christian. This is incorrect (although it may depend on what brand of Islam you're talking about). Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all going to heaven according to Islam, it's just preferable to be a Muslim. | ||
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trias_e
United States520 Posts
Fundamentally, I think it's irrelevant, because I don't think you can choose what you believe. If someone paid you a million dollars to believe you could fly out of the window, you can't suddenly believe you can fly out of the window. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On April 24 2013 09:49 Birdie wrote: If we're talking about the Christian God, he isn't bounded by morality, as he is outside it as its creator. The words good and evil hardly fit God properly. Morality doesn't bind animals, nor plants, nor general matter. It only binds humans. Show me one person who follows all the commandments of the Bible perfectly :O Also, given the general hate of Christians shown by many netizens of the US and Europe nowadays, I'd say that's at LEAST one downside to being a Christian, although there are others too. This is incorrect (although it may depend on what brand of Islam you're talking about). Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all going to heaven according to Islam, it's just preferable to be a Muslim. There are downsides to subscribing to evil ideologies, like nazism, christianity, and islam, yes. :D | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
If you want to hold onto this kind of stupidity then just become a Western secularist humanist. It's an offspring of European liberal Protestantism anyway, and its sense of morality and justice is thoroughly Christian, just secularized. You don't want Christianity and you don't actually want scripture; all you want is the soft comforts that Christianity doesn't actually provide in such a willy-nilly way. Rather an atheist than a false-Christian, rather an irreligious man than someone that takes Christianity in vain, and rather a heretic than someone that worships the idol of Christendom. Nietzsche once said that the first and only Christian died on the cross. I often think he was right. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
Saying "god will see through your little game so might as well just deny him completely" just doesn't make sense to me. If god really didn't exist, and it was proven and we were sure of it, I wouldn't even see a need to call myself an atheist. It's not like I go around calling myself someone that doesn't believe in unicorns, I just know they don't exist and go on with my life. God on the other hand? to say it's impossible has always felt wrong to me. Also if I say no way not possible I then must find a way to disprove all evidence that might point to a higher being which seems like a ridiculous chore. I find it hard to say something like "the universe has always existed." Considering not a single thing in the universe lasts forever...and yet it's just as easy to say if a God has existed forever couldn't the universe have existed forever? Or how could a God have existed forever, who created God? We're supposed to believe he just "always existed?" there's questions on both sides which have sketch answers. Circular logic gets nowhere which is why I prefer just respect an individuals own beliefs as everyone is entitled to believe what they want and there's a quite sound argument for both sides. T_T; | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:53 LuckyFool wrote: I don't really get how or why pascal's wager is so illogical. I mean sure god easily sees through the "little game" you might be playing and if he ends up being real when you die you're pretty fucked- but it's not as if I'm trying to "trick god" which is what some here seem to imply. Living life attempting to "trick god" is quite illogical. I don't view it as tricking god though. I just view it as remaining open minded that a higher being might exist. Whereas if I'm atheist I've made a steadfast commitment to deny any existence whatsoever which feels ignorant and irresponsible to me considering how much evidence/random shit is out there that might suggest a higher being. Saying "god will see through your little game so might as well just deny him completely" just doesn't make sense to me. If god really didn't exist, and it was proven and we were sure of it, I wouldn't even see a need to call myself an atheist. It's not like I go around calling myself someone that doesn't believe in unicorns, I just know they don't exist and go on with my life. God on the other hand? to say it's impossible has always felt wrong to me. Also if I say no way not possible I then must find a way to disprove all evidence that might point to a higher being which seems like a ridiculous chore. I find it hard to say something like "the universe has always existed." Considering not a single thing in the universe lasts forever...and yet it's just as easy to say if a God has existed forever couldn't the universe have existed forever? Or how could a God have existed forever, who created God? We're supposed to believe he just "always existed?" there's questions on both sides which have sketch answers. Circular logic gets nowhere which is why I prefer just respect an individuals own beliefs as long as they respect mine. T_T; I don't really get how or why pascal's wager is so illogical. I mean sure god easily sees through the "little game" you might be playing and if he ends up being real when you die you're pretty fucked Why believe in the first place then? Merely to be open minded? Then you're agnostic. You can be agnostic and not follow pascals wager, they're not the same thing. Implying that you believe because theres a chance is following the wager, and it just makes no sense. If you're following it(believing) for no benefit, then whats the point? If you're following it(believing) for benefit (chance in heaven or something) then it makes no sense as it wouldn't work that way, at least with the christian god. You have to believe with all of your heart to be accepted by god, and you're not doing that if you just hope. Whereas if I'm atheist I've made a steadfast commitment to deny any existence whatsoever which feels ignorant and irresponsible to me considering how much evidence/random shit is out there that might suggest a higher being. Absolutely not what an atheist is. Here's the difference between a religious person and an atheist person. A religious person can see evidence and ignore it due to faith, or change it based on interpretation., an atheist would not. If god game down to Earth tomorrow, I'd be a believer as it'd be pretty damn hard to not believe in something in front of me. But theres different levels of atheism and im under the impression that there is no higher being out there, as all evidence to me shows we're alone. But if I was ever shown something different, I'd of course have to reconsider. On your bit about how much evidence of a higher being is out there... ummmm..... where is it exactly? I have seen nothing that suggests a higher power. If you have then I'd love to see it, I'd love to see some evidence that suggests a higher being but I have yet to see anything, and I've been looking for a long time. On your questions you ask at the end, thats exactly what science is for. Do you think a holy book from any of the thousands of existing religions is going to tell us something new about the universe? Highly unlikely. Science looks into that, into our origin, and its through it where we will find out beginning, at least its our best chance. Reason I became an atheist is because none of it makes sense, why are there so many religions that exist today filled to the brim with people that will vehemently defend their religion and make claims with "evidence" as to why theirs is the right one. I don't believe any of it. I can understand the creation of religion, the need for it at the beginning of society, the desire to know where you come from, but I'll never have blind faith again, something thats most definitely required. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On April 24 2013 10:53 LuckyFool wrote: I don't really get how or why pascal's wager is so illogical. I mean sure god easily sees through the "little game" you might be playing and if he ends up being real when you die you're pretty fucked- but it's not as if I'm trying to "trick god" which is what some here seem to imply. Living life attempting to "trick god" is quite illogical. I don't view it as tricking god though. I just view it as remaining open minded that a higher being might exist. Whereas if I'm atheist I've made a steadfast commitment to deny any existence whatsoever which feels ignorant and irresponsible to me considering how much evidence/random shit is out there that might suggest a higher being. Saying "god will see through your little game so might as well just deny him completely" just doesn't make sense to me. If god really didn't exist, and it was proven and we were sure of it, I wouldn't even see a need to call myself an atheist. It's not like I go around calling myself someone that doesn't believe in unicorns, I just know they don't exist and go on with my life. God on the other hand? to say it's impossible has always felt wrong to me. Also if I say no way not possible I then must find a way to disprove all evidence that might point to a higher being which seems like a ridiculous chore. I find it hard to say something like "the universe has always existed." Considering not a single thing in the universe lasts forever...and yet it's just as easy to say if a God has existed forever couldn't the universe have existed forever? Or how could a God have existed forever, who created God? We're supposed to believe he just "always existed?" there's questions on both sides which have sketch answers. Circular logic gets nowhere which is why I prefer just respect an individuals own beliefs as everyone is entitled to believe what they want and there's a quite sound argument for both sides. T_T; Being an atheist isn't saying god is impossible, there's no point making up random definitions then arguing with yourself. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities." So a deity is still possible? I'm confused. | ||
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32743 Posts
On April 24 2013 11:14 LuckyFool wrote: Sorry I was just going off this; "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities." So a deity is still possible? I'm confused. According to atheism, no higher being on par with god(s) is logically impossible or simply fails to exist, so no, atheism says no deity can exist. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On April 24 2013 11:14 LuckyFool wrote: Sorry I was just going off this; "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities." So a deity is still possible? I'm confused. Rejection of belief means you don't believe. That's a lot different than saying god is impossible. If the Christian god came down tomorrow and said hi, I would be a Christian instantly. There are a million thing I reject that I would believe in if I saw a valid reason to. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Gnosticism is about knowledge, and theism is about belief. An agnostic atheist does not have theistic beliefs, but he does not have knowledge that there are no gods. So he's not completely certain that he's right. A gnostic atheist has no theistic beliefs, and is certain about it. A gnostic theist has theistic beliefs, and is certain that they are correct . An agnostic theist has theistic beliefs, but is not certain of them. The only way you're not one of these four is if you're right in the middle, thinking that it's 100% as likely that either side is right. Edit: About ignosticism: I understand where you are coming from, but when I say atheism, I'm talking about the existing claims for gods - not all possible ones. | ||
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