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No, Idra and Huk shouldn't be very high because they haven't done that good recently. but there is such a thing as an intelligent balance. I.E: Just because someone happens to have won most recently doesn't make them number one and neither does someone who won the most but a long time ago. A power ranking should be who's the BEST and MOST LIKELY to perform well. This should be judged through a balance of their consistency over time. I.E: How skilled they've proved to be.
I.E: Naniwa. He's good. He did well 3 years ago, and he does well now. He's an example of a player who should be ranked high. And yes, ladder fucking matters when it comes to deciding who is good because unlike tournament wins, you can't get lucky and become rank 3 on ladder 10 seasons in a row. You actually need to be consistently top 3 MMR. On the other hand, anyone can have a lucky day with the lucky race at the time and beat stephano once and suddenly be a top 30 foreigner.
+ Show Spoiler +*Anyone meaning anyone who is a random unknown GM who wouldn't usually have longstanding progamer potential
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On March 10 2013 09:15 FatNikE wrote:No, Idra and Huk shouldn't be very high because they haven't done that good recently. but there is such a thing as an intelligent balance. I.E: Just because someone happens to have won most recently doesn't make them number one and neither does someone who won the most but a long time ago. A power ranking should be who's the BEST and MOST LIKELY to perform well. This should be judged through a balance of their consistency over time. I.E: How skilled they've proved to be. I.E: Naniwa. He's good. He did well 3 years ago, and he does well now. He's an example of a player who should be ranked high. And yes, ladder fucking matters when it comes to deciding who is good because unlike tournament wins, you can't get lucky and become rank 3 on ladder 10 seasons in a row. You actually need to be consistently top 3 MMR. On the other hand, anyone can have a lucky day with the lucky race at the time and beat stephano once and suddenly be a top 30 foreigner. + Show Spoiler +*Anyone meaning anyone who is a random unknown GM who wouldn't usually have longstanding progamer potential
Let me address your points one by one:
-You want to discount people like VortiX by saying his race is OP (I see you don't care for patchzergs) and but then say winning is everything when you discount IdrA and HuK. That's simply inconsistent.
-Most likely to perform well would generally coincide with recent showings and results, would it not?
-Ladder matters then? So IdrA, a consistently top finishing NA player on the ladder, is bad but Kas is good? Even though IdrA has shown better recent and overall tournament results?
Your favoritism towards EU players who don't play Zerg is showing through. I don't mind that, but don't ridicule others for calling it the way it is.
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No, it wouldn't. I never said Idra was bad and Kas was good. They should probably both be on this list. But what you're missing is that if one player has won 5 tournaments and one of them was a month ago, and someone has only just won a single tournament and it was a week ago, then the former player should be ranked higher, not the latter.
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On March 10 2013 10:27 FatNikE wrote:
No, it wouldn't. I never said Idra was bad and Kas was good. They should probably both be on this list. But what you're missing is that if one player has won 5 tournaments and one of them was a month ago, and someone has only just won a single tournament and it was a week ago, then the former player should be ranked higher, not the latter.
Of course, but you've failed to list an example in which a player has had semi-recent success versus a player who has had very recent success (read VortiX, Snute, and Xlord). Also, I use "good" and "bad" as "high" and "low." You clearly have said that IdrA should be lowly ranked but Kas should be high and that's simply inconsistent.
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On March 10 2013 08:19 FatNikE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 05:57 Kaitokid wrote:On March 09 2013 10:39 FatNikE wrote:
XLord, SortOf and Vortix shouldn't be on the list. Snute is way too high up. Why not have sasquatch at no.1 while we're at it?
Very few of these are consistent successful progamers. Scarlett lost in an open bracket for an IPL and won WCS Canada a while ago, dominating the likes of TT1. Number 2? XLord beat stephano once, Vortix did about as well as any other zerg in WoL after the queen patch for about a month.
The list just seems like a who's who of who's hot in the last 30 days, and not like a serious power ranking... Who deserves it in my book? Naniwa, Stephano, Nerchio, Kas who hasn't really had tournament success as such, but consistently beats qualifiers and appears in group play as well as holding top 5 GM spots in EU. I agree xlord shouldn't be on the list skill wise but his HSC performance was really good so it makes sense to list him. vortix/sortf definitely should be on the list, how can you even doubt that also I dont think Kas top 5 gm spot is relevant here Lol.. there are a ton of people including players you've never heard of who can be rank 5 consistenly if they want to vortix wasn't bad before his big splash, he was one of the best europeans since early 2011 or something, just never played tournaments before that just because you dont know a player before he wins some event everyone and his dog watches it doesnt mean a player is bad/unknown I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Players practice on ladder. Just saying "They'd be rank 1 GM if they wanted to" doesn't mean anything and it's not true. What I'm saying is a player who never made top 15 on ladder happening to get to ro8 once in one tournament during the height of a race's imbalance does not justify them being on a top 10 power ranking compared to a player who's been top 5 on ladder for years and has made the group stages and higher for multiple major tournaments. "Just never played tournaments before that" Oh, they weren't of mediocre skill, they just never played tournaments, or ladder, or did anything else that would get them noticed before the queen change. That's a coincidence that makes sense. I doubt that Vortix, Sortof, etc should be on the list because all they have is one or two tournaments in which they made it past the group stages. It could've been any GM level zerg at that point, it just happened to be them. It doesn't justify them being on a list. I'm just saying, a couple of random zerg players who never did good on ladder, tournaments, or anywhere else in the competitive scene suddenly becoming good enough to place high in a single tournament with some luck right after a major zerg buff doesn't justify them being on a "TOP FOREIGNER!!!" list. That's like putting a couple of people who happened to not get hit by a bus when a tragedy happened on a "top survivor" list, right next to bear grylls. They were relatively bad before, and after HoTS they'll fade back into obscurity most likely too. I could be wrong, but the fact is still that they have yet to prove themselves! If they continue to win anything at all outside of a 1-2 month period, then by all means put them on a list like this. But the way this list seems to function, if I were to randomly enter a tournament and get Taeja first round and beat him off of pure luck and chance with a 6pool, I'd then appear as the 25th best foreigner in next month's edition of this power ranking, despite being a crappy mid master player. A long shot, but it could happen. If Vortix was a top foreigner, he wouldn't be on Karont3. But the real big pro teams know he won't make it past another group stage as soon as the random queen frenzy he got picked up in by happy chance ends.
literally everything you just wrote is wrong, thats quite an accomplishment
1. it coulndt have been any gm zerg haha and yes there are indeed a lot of players who are high on the ladder at times. its not just people like kas but it basically changes on a daily basis
2. both Sortof and especially vortix do well on the ladder, vortix is like always at least top 5 when he plays
3. they werent bad before
4. vortix is on Karont3 by choice, pretty sure he was even offered to join eg before along with his brother. he just prefers to play in a team with his 2 brothers and doesnt want to play fulltime... on top of that karont3 is a pretty wealthy team
5. lol
after reading your posts again i can agree on 1 part. I think recent results should be less important. but there is pretty much just 1 player who's success is way above his actual skill level and that is xlord
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On March 10 2013 08:19 FatNikE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 05:57 Kaitokid wrote:On March 09 2013 10:39 FatNikE wrote:
XLord, SortOf and Vortix shouldn't be on the list. Snute is way too high up. Why not have sasquatch at no.1 while we're at it?
Very few of these are consistent successful progamers. Scarlett lost in an open bracket for an IPL and won WCS Canada a while ago, dominating the likes of TT1. Number 2? XLord beat stephano once, Vortix did about as well as any other zerg in WoL after the queen patch for about a month.
The list just seems like a who's who of who's hot in the last 30 days, and not like a serious power ranking... Who deserves it in my book? Naniwa, Stephano, Nerchio, Kas who hasn't really had tournament success as such, but consistently beats qualifiers and appears in group play as well as holding top 5 GM spots in EU. I agree xlord shouldn't be on the list skill wise but his HSC performance was really good so it makes sense to list him. vortix/sortf definitely should be on the list, how can you even doubt that also I dont think Kas top 5 gm spot is relevant here Lol.. there are a ton of people including players you've never heard of who can be rank 5 consistenly if they want to vortix wasn't bad before his big splash, he was one of the best europeans since early 2011 or something, just never played tournaments before that just because you dont know a player before he wins some event everyone and his dog watches it doesnt mean a player is bad/unknown I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Players practice on ladder. Just saying "They'd be rank 1 GM if they wanted to" doesn't mean anything and it's not true. What I'm saying is a player who never made top 15 on ladder happening to get to ro8 once in one tournament during the height of a race's imbalance does not justify them being on a top 10 power ranking compared to a player who's been top 5 on ladder for years and has made the group stages and higher for multiple major tournaments. "Just never played tournaments before that" Oh, they weren't of mediocre skill, they just never played tournaments, or ladder, or did anything else that would get them noticed before the queen change. That's a coincidence that makes sense. I doubt that Vortix, Sortof, etc should be on the list because all they have is one or two tournaments in which they made it past the group stages. It could've been any GM level zerg at that point, it just happened to be them. It doesn't justify them being on a list. I'm just saying, a couple of random zerg players who never did good on ladder, tournaments, or anywhere else in the competitive scene suddenly becoming good enough to place high in a single tournament with some luck right after a major zerg buff doesn't justify them being on a "TOP FOREIGNER!!!" list. That's like putting a couple of people who happened to not get hit by a bus when a tragedy happened on a "top survivor" list, right next to bear grylls. They were relatively bad before, and after HoTS they'll fade back into obscurity most likely too. I could be wrong, but the fact is still that they have yet to prove themselves! If they continue to win anything at all outside of a 1-2 month period, then by all means put them on a list like this. But the way this list seems to function, if I were to randomly enter a tournament and get Taeja first round and beat him off of pure luck and chance with a 6pool, I'd then appear as the 25th best foreigner in next month's edition of this power ranking, despite being a crappy mid master player. A long shot, but it could happen. If Vortix was a top foreigner, he wouldn't be on Karont3. But the real big pro teams know he won't make it past another group stage as soon as the random queen frenzy he got picked up in by happy chance ends.
The rating is based on results, the more recent, the better. You can't just discount results because one race might have been a little bit stronger than others.
VortiX declined offers from EG and others long ago, he is on Karont3 because he wants to, because it's a Spanish team and because his brother manages the SC2 squad.
Funnily enough, the EG offer was before people started getting angry about perceived patchzergs.
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so hard to make a new ranking right now ~~
relying a lot on overall WoL results of the last months added to the first 2 HotS tournaments and HotS ladder :/
will see what i come up with, will release tomorrow !
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EPT
