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Starcraft is here to stay and I write this in frustration with the negative posts that occur from time to time in the forums. The latest one is "Is HOTS worth it".
We all know it, so why do some people act like rats on a sinking ship when the ship is quite safe as it is.
This is why:
When you ask this question and talk constant about how SC2 has no future you contribute to limit the immediate growth of e-sports. Yes you are outright hurting the community you love.
Talking and discussing the direction of the game to help Blizzard take the right decisions and other players to improve their play are all good and well. However the constant whine about the game itself as in having no place in e-sports, it is just plain destructive.
Sponsors and players are reading this and making decisions based upon the public opinion.
It is common knowledge that those who play and are happy doesn't make posts. It is the other half who does and by doing so dominate the media with destructive information, as mentioned before, limits the immediate growth.
This can be compared to the stock-marked as well. Would you as a possible investor/buyer invest in stocks which are flooded with negative information ? the information is not from reliable sources but they are the only sources available to you.
Again it is super to discuss tactic and strategy, but to attack the game itself in frustration based upon lack of success or balance issues you think is unfair, is not contributing to the community it is limiting it's immediate possibilities.
The pro teams and players depend on sponsors to make a living and to entertain you. Show them the respect they deserve by contributing and not "pissing in the well"
So does SC2 have a future ? you all know the answer so the question itself is plain stupid.
How do we make it grow and look brighter ? That is the real question.
Fanboi ? yes of course I am a fan. I love it.
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I think you do need to have a critical point on the game and the direction it's going though. Although, all the bandwagoning etc is getting really old and just digging a deeper grave. Oh well. POSITIVE E-SPORTS FTW! =D
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Just contribute to LP if there's nothing else you can do. Come on, you get shiny coins. Look at my coins. Don't you wish they were yours? I bet you do. Edit LP. Do it.
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Great thread couldn't agree more. If you want to help e-sports it's really easy, just check in your favorite streams every time. Those viewer counts do count, it's something completely free you can do with minimal effort.
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Dude, can I please not take the responsibility for this one?
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
If it doesn't grow it's because the gamestate doesn't promote growth, the people who messed up are still there and they're too stubborn to admit they made some serious mistakes. AND insisted on not correcting them.
As a recent blog remarked, before e-sports, organizing, sponsors and so on - there needs to be enjoyment, fun, a feeling of "fuck, yeah, I actually feel like playing this game".
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I am not into e-sports in much of way tbh, but what I agree on is the aspie style negativity in modern gaming communities. A lot of people can not seem to just play their game/s of choice and be happy thesedays, other games they they do not choose to play "suck".
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On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat.
Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction.
I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction.
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@whines in threads:
There are so many people here who are addicted to the tl community even though they dont really enjoy SC2 anymore.
These people wil whine, cant do anything about that except hoping they find something better to do with their free time.
@grow esports attitude:
I personally think this is complete bullshit (eg. suggesting to watch streams in order to support players income and sponsors)
For 99% of us this is free time we are spending on tl and in SC2. We are here to have fun and not to keep some Illusion alive.
People get way too fanatic about this esports thing.
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On January 14 2013 01:16 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat. Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction. I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction.
Viewership isn't down. Please at least do some research before just stating something like it is a fact.
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Why there are people who want everyone to love what they love and cant handle critic?
This is why:
They are insecure and can not deal with different opinions.
When you say other people what to say, you will stay in your closed mindset and hurt the one you love.
Yourself!
How sponsors sell their product is their not our problem.
We dont own them anything! We dont need them and for my part they are not even welcome. Because instead of some brain-washed kids, i DONT like to watch advertise.
What is if some part of this community want a good game and dont care to make it bigger?
What if not everyone thinks that everyone have to love what they love?
What when for some people here, its not about attention and getting main stream because they dont have any complexes to overcome?
Perhaps for some people on TL, It just playing a game and discuss what you like and what you dont like.
Not the random rant are the problem of the community.
The naive people who dont care for gaming and just want to be a part of something big (e-sport) is the problem!
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On January 14 2013 01:18 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat. Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction. I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction. Viewership isn't down. Please at least do some research before just stating something like it is a fact.
Maybe tournament viewership isn't down, but stream viewership most definitely is.
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On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
Dude, can I please not take the responsibility for this one?
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
If it doesn't grow it's because the gamestate doesn't promote growth, the people who messed up are still there and they're too stubborn to admit they made some serious mistakes. AND insisted on not correcting them.
As a recent blog remarked, before e-sports, organizing, sponsors and so on - there needs to be enjoyment, fun, a feeling of "fuck, yeah, I actually feel like playing this game".
Yeah and for almost the last 15 years of my own experience with internet gaming I've seen the posts like this, every game that goes into decline, whingers moaning about the company didn't do this, didn't do that.
People move on, play other games, law of diminishing returns.
What can be done? well firstly, take a deep breath and stop whinging and blaming, secondly do something constructive if you feel strongly enough about it.
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eh i aggree with what your saying but if your really Nimitz ( eu gm protoss ) than your defenitly the wrong person to start a thread like this as your known to be really bad mannered.
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The release of the expansion would be a good time to boycott the game until blizzard starts to care about esports. There should be a huge community movement with all the prominent figures standing up and showing the middle finger to blizzard, then tournaments need to stop broadcasting sc2, and pro players must not play it. But who could organize something like this, when most of these people enjoy the fruits of what little blizzard give us? And the sad thing is even if this happened it probably didnt change a thing. They have a roadmap to legacy of the void with the least things they need to do and get away with it, and that is how things going to turn out. They only care about selling to single player to 5 million american kids aaand they're gone for 3 years again.
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Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
Your thread has some truth in it, the internet is typically a negative place, but asking people to withhold legitimate criticism is not appropriate. If you don't criticize, there is no way that Blizzard knows that there needs to be a change. Not everyone is happy with the way the game plays, and your opinion is not superior to theirs.
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Negative cynics are cooler #swag
I think most fans are not negative at all, it's just the bad ones that are more vocal. Rather than trying to change people's behaviour I would encourage people to show appreciation when they feel it.
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On January 14 2013 01:27 FLeK0 wrote:
The release of the expansion would be a good time to boycott the game until blizzard starts to care about esports. There should be a huge community movement with all the prominent figures standing up and showing the middle finger to blizzard, then tournaments need to stop broadcasting sc2, and pro players must not play it. But who could organize something like this, when most of these people enjoy the fruits of what little blizzard give us? And the sad thing is even if this happened it probably didnt change a thing. They have a roadmap to legacy of the void with the least things they need to do and get away with it, and that is how things going to turn out. They only care about selling to single player to 5 million american kids aaand they're gone for 3 years again.
Wow... Your post is so full of ignorant statements and childish thinking.
I don't even know where to start. :/
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On January 14 2013 01:31 Noocta wrote:
Wow... Your post is so full of ignorant statements and childish thinking.
I don't even know where to start. :/ I just played too many blizzard games where the gamers' voice were ignored forever.
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On January 14 2013 01:20 skeldark wrote:
Why there are people who want everyone to love what they love and cant handle critic?
This is why:
They are insecure and can not deal with different opinions.
When you say other people what to say, you will stay in your closed mindset and hurt the one you love.
Yourself!
How sponsors sell their product is their not our problem.
We dont own them anything! We dont need them and for my part they are not even welcome. Because instead of some brain-washed kids, i DONT like to watch advertise.
What is if some part of this community want a good game and dont care to make it bigger?
What if not everyone thinks that everyone have to love what they love?
What when for some people here, its not about attention and getting main stream because they dont have any complexes to overcome?
Perhaps for some people on TL, It just playing a game and discuss what you like and what you dont like.
Not the random rant are the problem of the community.
The naive people who dont care for gaming and just want to be a part of something big (e-sport) is the problem!
what the fuck? are you seriously? everyone knows that there are millions of whiners out there ( mostly bronze - master-league ) who whine about ... well nearly everything! they cant change the game because they are not like the big fishes, who actually play for money!! sc2 could be the most balanced game in the world!! but still this players would open flame/ blaance threads, because well quite frankly they just cant deal with everything in the game, due to bad mechanics or just bad understanding of the game.
and whats bad about being part of esports without complaining about the game?? just tell me what would be bad if everyone would have nothing but love for this game.
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If you don't care about esports, and believe it or not, there are people who don't give a damn about it and just enjoy playing videogames for what they are, there is no reason to artificially support it by faking activity, viewership, sympathy or anything else.
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On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Starcraft is here to stay and I write this in frustration with the negative posts that occur from time to time in the forums. The latest one is "Is HOTS worth it".
We all know it, so why do some people act like rats on a sinking ship when the ship is quite safe as it is.
So you do not entertain, even for a single second, the possibility that some of us do not agree with direction in which HotS is heading? Are we not allowed to have an opinion of our own with regards to what games we choose to buy, play and support? Fair enough, I guess this is your first step in how to be a contributor to "e-sports". Moving right along...
On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
This is why:
When you ask this question and talk constant about how SC2 has no future you contribute to limit the immediate growth of e-sports. Yes you are outright hurting the community you love.
I'm fairly sure this "community you love" you speak of has existed long before SC2 and will probably exist after it as well. And I would have maintained the same position even without TL picking up a DotA 2 team and investing time and effort into that particular game. But this is just a nitpick. Moving on...
On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Talking and discussing the direction of the game to help Blizzard take the right decisions and other players to improve their play are all good and well. However the constant whine about the game itself as in having no place in e-sports, it is just plain destructive.
So what you are saying is that we should not give feedback to Blizzard to attempt to help them make the game that supposedly we love BETTER? For the enjoyment of both players and spectators? We should just the fuck up and let Blizzard do whatever they have in mind because that has turned out very well throughout the past 2 and a half years right? AM I RIGHT GUYS? (more on this later)
Moving on...
On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Sponsors and players are reading this and making decisions based upon the public opinion.
It is common knowledge that those who play and are happy doesn't make posts. It is the other half who does and by doing so dominate the media with destructive information, as mentioned before, limits the immediate growth.
This can be compared to the stock-marked as well. Would you as a possible investor/buyer invest in stocks which are flooded with negative information ? the information is not from reliable sources but they are the only sources available to you.
Personally I like to believe in meritocracy. That is to say, I will support the people and things that I believe deserve my support the most.
On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Again it is super to discuss tactic and strategy, but to attack the game itself in frustration based upon lack of success or balance issues you think is unfair, is not contributing to the community it is limiting it's immediate possibilities.
I think there have been quite a few very well written articles/threads with regards to the design of the game from a purely objective standpoint, written by people that actually know better than most of the community. If you choose to accept hard facts and well-argumented points by people more experienced than you or I as "balance issues you think is unfair" then I suppose everyone should do so as well because otherwise we would be killing "e-sports". RIGHT?
On we go...
On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
The pro teams and players depend on sponsors to make a living and to entertain you. Show them the respect they deserve by contributing and not "pissing in the well"
I'm pretty sure progamers do what they do because it provides financiary backup, because they are competitive and because they enjoy the game. Not necessarily all, but my point is that they're not our slaves in some virtual Colosseum where they live for our entertainment. It's nonsensical to try and make readers guilty because it's simply not true.
And I'm pretty sure the thing that hurts sponsors a lot more is when random snobby, entitled asshats decide that some random worthless meaningless drama has offended them and they decide to tell the respective sponsor about it. And this particular vocal minority manages to send that sponsor a message to the effect of "the SC2 scene is full of whiny bipolar pussies who get riled up over nothing and threaten the safety of our investment. Better move on to something else."
On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
So does SC2 have a future ? you all know the answer so the question itself is plain stupid.
How do we make it grow and look brighter ? That is the real question.
Fanboi ? yes of course I am a fan. I love it.
So again, you say that in order to >be a contributor to "e-sports"< we should become mindless drones that don't care about the game we play, whether we enjoy playing or not, whether we enjoy watching it or not, whether we got our money's worth from buying it and just let Blizzard do whatever they please?
Blizzard has no obligation to listen to us. But they claim that they very much do. However, their actions indicate the contrary as they are either refusing to at least attempt and experiment with the changes that the community agrees upon as being good, or they do so much much later when it's a non-issue (what with their new game coming out and what not). I find this to be a blatant, shameless hypocrisy.
But hey, it doesn't matter that we are displeased. We should trust Blizzard. We should cherish Blizzard and their actions. Because what is a free will and educated opinions if by having them you hurt "e-sports"?
--------------------------------
Shoot me. If this is what *you* understand by being a contributor to "e-sports" then I will have none of it.
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If you think stuff through, you would realize that the best thing could happen to Starcraft 2 is if the current design team of Blizzard got fired and replaced with someone competent. That won't happen if people keeps appreciating all the "great stuff they are doing", and buys the game no matter what.
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On January 14 2013 01:33 FLeK0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:31 Noocta wrote:
Wow... Your post is so full of ignorant statements and childish thinking.
I don't even know where to start. :/ I just played too many blizzard games where the gamers' voice were ignored forever.
I played almost every blizzard game since warcraft 2, I never felt they were ignoring people more than other company.
On the contrary, they always were prime example of good communication and stuff.
They are a bit slow, but Blizzard's a big firm now, It's understandable that they can be very slow.
The only thing you can be sad about, is that Blizzard now is not the same guys that made Warcraft 3, Broodwar and Diablo2. The guys with the genius of that time are not part of the company anymore.
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"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure."
wow thank you very much for this signature... your right... thanks!! will try to become the best player in the world now
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On January 14 2013 01:27 GodOfWarAReS wrote:
eh i aggree with what your saying but if your really Nimitz ( eu gm protoss ) than your defenitly the wrong person to start a thread like this as your known to be really bad mannered.
I am not. I am a plat Zerg but have always used this nick, since 1998 orso when i got into gaming.
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Trying to change how others behave is a waste of time, focus on how you can change your own behavior to reflect your ideals. For instance, if you like Starcraft and it's community, make a post explaining how you like them and how it affects your life in a positive way. Instead you're trying to combat negativity with more negativity.
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On January 14 2013 01:38 Kuni wrote:
If you don't care about esports, and believe it or not, there are people who don't give a damn about it and just enjoy playing videogames for what they are, there is no reason to artificially support it by faking activity, viewership, sympathy or anything else.
Sure there are, however they don't just play the games and move on when it doesn't meet their demands anymore. (well some do) but the majority sticks around to flame and blame as if they wan't to prove that their decision to move on is the correct one.
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What if you already are and still have criticisms (like everyone else?)
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I was really waiting for SC2 and I really wanted it to be a really excellent RTS esport centred game.
I was a huge Warcraft 3 fan, and general blizzard products fan and the least I can say is that I'm not hype up for any of their current or future projects.
I'm not even talking about way too high expectations or wanting a perfectly balanced and fun game, but when SC2 battlenet 2.0 has less features than Brood war or Warcraft 3 Battlenet I have a problem finding reasons to why this happened.(Clan support, custom channel at launch, shitty custom games interface, no rename feature, really?, etc)
Blizzard doesn't even support the esport SC2 scene that much, they only get involved with some PR bullshit while they could use some ressources to do a ton. Every Blizzard product nowadays just keep contents back to be able to profit on it over a longer period of time. See Diablo 3, WoW and SC2 the week a product is launch an executive annouce that they are alreaady working on the next addon and that it is awesome. Diablo 3 was announced with PvP and nearly a year later still nothing to see except a shitty FFA/duel instance. You can only be disappointed so much until you lose trust on the company that was supposed to provide you with a service or good.
I want to contribute and support esport. I'll do it for every other company that try and delivers something I think is good.
In my opinion, Starcraft 2 is probably the best RTS today, but it's not a good product/service as a whole.
TL DR: Esport yes, Blizzard not necessarily.
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On January 14 2013 01:44 Hider wrote:
If you think stuff through, you would realize that the best thing could happen to Starcraft 2 is if the current design team of Blizzard got fired and replaced with someone competent. That won't happen if people keeps appreciating all the "great stuff they are doing", and buys the game no matter what.
Yes maybe that is a solution, but i don't have opinion on this. I am definitely not saying that you should blindly praise what is bad. But suggesting what to change is way better that pure whining.
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On January 14 2013 01:59 Saechiis wrote:
Trying to change how others behave is a waste of time, focus on how you can change your own behavior to reflect your ideals. For instance, if you like Starcraft and it's community, make a post explaining how you like them and how it affects your life in a positive way. Instead you're trying to combat negativity with more negativity.
He doesn't want this, all he wants is a high horse from which to preach to people why they're stupid in the righteous cause of "e-sports". Either that or he's truly oblivious to how things work an reality in general. I would still think the former rather than the latter, since he did not even attempt to bring up some semblance of an argument in response to my decently-written (I believe) post.
Or maybe he really just doesn't know what he's talking about.
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If this was any other company than Blizzard (well, maybe Valve), their way of handling SC2 would spark an outrage, as years of customer (you know, us, the people that pay for the game) complaints over very basic issues are almost completely ignored. I'm willing to wait until HotS is actually out of beta before I make a buying decision, but it isn't looking too good. It's also sad to see a company that big basically abandon WoL completely in favor of milking money from expansions.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2013 01:40 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Starcraft is here to stay and I write this in frustration with the negative posts that occur from time to time in the forums. The latest one is "Is HOTS worth it".
We all know it, so why do some people act like rats on a sinking ship when the ship is quite safe as it is.
So you do not entertain, even for a single second, the possibility that some of us do not agree with direction in which HotS is heading? Are we not allowed to have an opinion of our own with regards to what games we choose to buy, play and support? Fair enough, I guess this is your first step in how to be a contributor to "e-sports". Moving right along... Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
This is why:
When you ask this question and talk constant about how SC2 has no future you contribute to limit the immediate growth of e-sports. Yes you are outright hurting the community you love.
I'm fairly sure this "community you love" you speak of has existed long before SC2 and will probably exist after it as well. And I would have maintained the same position even without TL picking up a DotA 2 team and investing time and effort into that particular game. But this is just a nitpick. Moving on... Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Talking and discussing the direction of the game to help Blizzard take the right decisions and other players to improve their play are all good and well. However the constant whine about the game itself as in having no place in e-sports, it is just plain destructive.
So what you are saying is that we should not give feedback to Blizzard to attempt to help them make the game that supposedly we love BETTER? For the enjoyment of both players and spectators? We should just the fuck up and let Blizzard do whatever they have in mind because that has turned out very well throughout the past 2 and a half years right? AM I RIGHT GUYS? (more on this later) Moving on... Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Sponsors and players are reading this and making decisions based upon the public opinion.
It is common knowledge that those who play and are happy doesn't make posts. It is the other half who does and by doing so dominate the media with destructive information, as mentioned before, limits the immediate growth.
This can be compared to the stock-marked as well. Would you as a possible investor/buyer invest in stocks which are flooded with negative information ? the information is not from reliable sources but they are the only sources available to you.
Personally I like to believe in meritocracy. That is to say, I will support the people and things that I believe deserve my support the most. Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Again it is super to discuss tactic and strategy, but to attack the game itself in frustration based upon lack of success or balance issues you think is unfair, is not contributing to the community it is limiting it's immediate possibilities.
I think there have been quite a few very well written articles/threads with regards to the design of the game from a purely objective standpoint, written by people that actually know better than most of the community. If you choose to accept hard facts and well-argumented points by people more experienced than you or I as "balance issues you think is unfair" then I suppose everyone should do so as well because otherwise we would be killing "e-sports". RIGHT? On we go... Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
The pro teams and players depend on sponsors to make a living and to entertain you. Show them the respect they deserve by contributing and not "pissing in the well"
I'm pretty sure progamers do what they do because it provides financiary backup, because they are competitive and because they enjoy the game. Not necessarily all, but my point is that they're not our slaves in some virtual Colosseum where they live for our entertainment. It's nonsensical to try and make readers guilty because it's simply not true. And I'm pretty sure the thing that hurts sponsors a lot more is when random snobby, entitled asshats decide that some random worthless meaningless drama has offended them and they decide to tell the respective sponsor about it. And this particular vocal minority manages to send that sponsor a message to the effect of "the SC2 scene is full of whiny bipolar pussies who get riled up over nothing and threaten the safety of our investment. Better move on to something else." Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
So does SC2 have a future ? you all know the answer so the question itself is plain stupid.
How do we make it grow and look brighter ? That is the real question.
Fanboi ? yes of course I am a fan. I love it. So again, you say that in order to >be a contributor to "e-sports"< we should become mindless drones that don't care about the game we play, whether we enjoy playing or not, whether we enjoy watching it or not, whether we got our money's worth from buying it and just let Blizzard do whatever they please? Blizzard has no obligation to listen to us. But they claim that they very much do. However, their actions indicate the contrary as they are either refusing to at least attempt and experiment with the changes that the community agrees upon as being good, or they do so much much later when it's a non-issue (what with their new game coming out and what not). I find this to be a blatant, shameless hypocrisy. But hey, it doesn't matter that we are displeased. We should trust Blizzard. We should cherish Blizzard and their actions. Because what is a free will and educated opinions if by having them you hurt "e-sports"? -------------------------------- Shoot me. If this is what *you* understand by being a contributor to "e-sports" then I will have none of it.
The problem i have with answering this post is that you are not reading what i write and are putting opinions into my post that are not there.
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On January 14 2013 02:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:59 Saechiis wrote:
Trying to change how others behave is a waste of time, focus on how you can change your own behavior to reflect your ideals. For instance, if you like Starcraft and it's community, make a post explaining how you like them and how it affects your life in a positive way. Instead you're trying to combat negativity with more negativity. He doesn't want this, all he wants is a high horse from which to preach to people why they're stupid in the righteous cause of "e-sports". Either that or he's truly oblivious to how things work an reality in general. I would still think the former rather than the latter, since he did not even attempt to bring up some semblance of an argument in response to my decently-written (I believe) post. Or maybe he really just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Come on.. really ? yes I want e-sport to grow, don't you ? high horse.. really ? this is just a personal attack that i won't lower myself to spend much time on.
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On January 14 2013 02:04 Torte de Lini wrote:
What if you already are and still have criticisms (like everyone else?)
I think the OP isn't about that. It's about the whining, the extreme exaggeration of small gameplay or map or bnet service issues. There is some good criticism out there, but it is hard to get to it because it is often overshadowed by negative statements which do not contribute to actual criticism.
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As to whether I am satisfied with HOTS i can say no to the current balance. I play Zerg and struggle with airtoss combined with colossi and storm. As for the expansion itself, sure i love it. Engine seems good as it runs on my low spec laptop when travelling as well as my high end stationary at home. Graphic looks good, tool tips is good as they are noob friendly. A game needs noobs and masters. Units are interesting but as i said, not balanced, however i don't expect it to be balanced in the beta.
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If you need to make desprate post like this to encourage the community. to do work for free, to keep a 100 000 000 dollar game growing/alive then the game might aswell be dead. Keeping the game growing/alive should be mostly blizzards job because they are the ones who get the money from it. Next in line should be tournament organizers and pro teams because they also do it for profit. We the community are the people who dony get money from this, we pay for this, should now put in effort aswell to market this?
Just a friendly reminder that sc2 is not a charity. Its a for profit industry. Let us talk about it how we like, not having to consider can the stock holders roll in a bigger pile of money.
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On January 14 2013 02:24 Sea_Food wrote:
If you need to make desprate post like this to encourage the community. to do work for free, to keep a 100 000 000 dollar game growing/alive then the game might aswell be dead. Keeping the game growing/alive should be mostly blizzards job because they are the ones who get the money from it. Next in line should be tournament organizers and pro teams because they also do it for profit. We the community are the people who dony get money from this, we pay for this, should now put in effort aswell to market this?
Just a friendly reminder that sc2 is not a charity. Its a for profit industry.
But... But Sea_Food... e-sports... but... the community! The game! Passion! /lol
I agree with this very much, however it doesn't matter what we believe because -apparently- we didn't read the OP. Even though we did. lol.
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On January 14 2013 02:18 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:04 Torte de Lini wrote:
What if you already are and still have criticisms (like everyone else?) I think the OP isn't about that. It's about the whining, the extreme exaggeration of small gameplay or map or bnet service issues. There is some good criticism out there, but it is hard to get to it because it is often overshadowed by negative statements which do not contribute to actual criticism.
Yes I tried to make this post about this topic, however i might come across as negative myself and for that I am sorry.
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I think that threads like this one are just going to serve as flame-bait and in general be a detriment to your goals.
Don't tell people how to act, set an example for them.
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On January 14 2013 01:31 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:27 FLeK0 wrote:
The release of the expansion would be a good time to boycott the game until blizzard starts to care about esports. There should be a huge community movement with all the prominent figures standing up and showing the middle finger to blizzard, then tournaments need to stop broadcasting sc2, and pro players must not play it. But who could organize something like this, when most of these people enjoy the fruits of what little blizzard give us? And the sad thing is even if this happened it probably didnt change a thing. They have a roadmap to legacy of the void with the least things they need to do and get away with it, and that is how things going to turn out. They only care about selling to single player to 5 million american kids aaand they're gone for 3 years again. Wow... Your post is so full of ignorant statements and childish thinking. I don't even know where to start. :/
Just saying it's full of ignorant statements then having 0 justification to back that up, makes your statement the ignorant one. I completely agree with Flek0. It's no coincidence that blizzard are finally making map and balance changes only weeks before they wish to sell millions of copies of their new expansion, despite the community desperately begging for these changes over the last 2+ years. I will honestly not be even slightly surprised to see Blizzard make their money with HotS only to disappear until LotV is near release.
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lol what most people do is not criticism. It's random whining about everything just to make drama, or to blame balance for their lack of skill in the game.
Maybe you don't see this a lot on TL but in stream chats/battle.net forums i've seen people claiming that protoss lategame army is unbeatable by zerg.
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On January 14 2013 02:24 Sea_Food wrote:
If you need to make desprate post like this to encourage the community. to do work for free, to keep a 100 000 000 dollar game growing/alive then the game might aswell be dead. Keeping the game growing/alive should be mostly blizzards job because they are the ones who get the money from it. Next in line should be tournament organizers and pro teams because they also do it for profit. We the community are the people who dony get money from this, we pay for this, should now put in effort aswell to market this?
Just a friendly reminder that sc2 is not a charity. Its a for profit industry. Let us talk about it how we like, not having to consider can the stock holders roll in a bigger pile of money.
The post is not meant as desperate. The game is free to play you just buy the initial game and expansions and doesn't bother me at all as the amount is like nothing.
Sure i do work for free when i like something and it is a hobby. I do not mind giving feedback at all. You say this is Blizzards job and with some help from the pro scene. I really cannot play at a pro level but that doesn't mean i can't think when watching the pro players duke it out. As to market the game, I haven't said we should but I don't see any point in doing the opposite. I wan't EG or TL (insert team here) to succeed because it is friggin fun to watch for me and they pay their players to have a job within a profession the are passionate about.
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Instead of writing this crap here, perhaps you should go tell the same stuff to Blizzard. They really should take a look at what Riot and Valve are doing and actually start giving a shit. It's not like they don't have money or resources...
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On January 14 2013 02:27 Erik.TheRed wrote:
I think that threads like this one are just going to serve as flame-bait and in general be a detriment to your goals.
Don't tell people how to act, set an example for them.
=) It seems like it, but we are never to old to learn.
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On January 14 2013 02:02 Nimitz.no wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:38 Kuni wrote:
If you don't care about esports, and believe it or not, there are people who don't give a damn about it and just enjoy playing videogames for what they are, there is no reason to artificially support it by faking activity, viewership, sympathy or anything else. Sure there are, however they don't just play the games and move on when it doesn't meet their demands anymore. (well some do) but the majority sticks around to flame and blame as if they wan't to prove that their decision to move on is the correct one.
I can imagine a lot of of those gamers getting sick of those "DO IT FOR ESPORTS OR YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE AND DONT LIKE THE GAME"-people :-)
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On January 14 2013 02:46 Kuni wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:02 Nimitz.no wrote:On January 14 2013 01:38 Kuni wrote:
If you don't care about esports, and believe it or not, there are people who don't give a damn about it and just enjoy playing videogames for what they are, there is no reason to artificially support it by faking activity, viewership, sympathy or anything else. Sure there are, however they don't just play the games and move on when it doesn't meet their demands anymore. (well some do) but the majority sticks around to flame and blame as if they wan't to prove that their decision to move on is the correct one. I can imagine a lot of of those gamers getting sick of those "DO IT FOR ESPORTS OR YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE AND DONT LIKE THE GAME"-people :-)
I haven't really called out any one as an asshole, but hell yeah do it for e sports if you like it. I see no reason not to.
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On January 14 2013 02:43 Nimitz.no wrote:
The game is free to play you just buy the initial game and expansions and doesn't bother me at all as the amount is like nothing.
Paying money doesn't make it free to play. With that logic, when I pay rent my apartment suddenly becomes free to live in.
This is terrible reasoning.
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It's hard to enjoy watching tournaments these days for people like myself who aren't big fans of ZvZ, but I'm optimistic about HOTS bringing new balance and fun to the game.
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On January 14 2013 02:53 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:43 Nimitz.no wrote:
The game is free to play you just buy the initial game and expansions and doesn't bother me at all as the amount is like nothing. Paying money doesn't make it free to play. With that logic, when I pay rent my apartment suddenly becomes free to live in. This is terrible reasoning.
I do not pay a monthly fee for playing Starcraft, do you ? by free to play i mean unlike Wow or Rift, Aion etc.
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On January 14 2013 02:53 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:43 Nimitz.no wrote:
The game is free to play you just buy the initial game and expansions and doesn't bother me at all as the amount is like nothing. Paying money doesn't make it free to play. With that logic, when I pay rent my apartment suddenly becomes free to live in. This is terrible reasoning. He means there are no monthly payments, just one-time payment (per expansion). Whereas in most successful free to play models people end up paying regularly for all kinds of little stuff, so it's like they pay monthly.
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OP, you make the false assumption that I actually care about "growing esports." I don't. And I honestly don't think HOTS is worth it, I won't be purchasing it. And this reads like a blog to me.
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On January 14 2013 02:57 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:53 TeslasPigeon wrote:On January 14 2013 02:43 Nimitz.no wrote:
The game is free to play you just buy the initial game and expansions and doesn't bother me at all as the amount is like nothing. Paying money doesn't make it free to play. With that logic, when I pay rent my apartment suddenly becomes free to live in. This is terrible reasoning. He means there are no monthly payments, just one-time payment (per expansion). Whereas in most successful free to play models people end up paying regularly for all kinds of little stuff, so it's like they pay monthly.
It is a well known fact that in most of these games it's generally only a small fraction of the playerbase that ends up buying in-game items thereby supporting the game. Most of the players of such a game actually never pay for anything. A significant number of the people who play a F2P game (I'm not saying majority here) actually do so simply because it's free and not a terrible game.
So it is indeed very terrible reasoning. Also, why does he need to compare SC2 to games with a subscription-based model that as far as I'm aware comprise an infinitesimal amount of the games available right now? I can only think of WoW and EVE, both of which are doing really well, then some korean MMORPGs and most of the rest I can think of have since transitioned to a different payment model. Subscriptions are simply not cutting it in this day and age.
So SC2 is a one-time payment game. So are most games and so have been most games. So what?
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On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Starcraft is here to stay and I write this in frustration with the negative posts that occur from time to time in the forums. The latest one is "Is HOTS worth it".
We all know it, so why do some people act like rats on a sinking ship when the ship is quite safe as it is.
This is why:
When you ask this question and talk constant about how SC2 has no future you contribute to limit the immediate growth of e-sports. Yes you are outright hurting the community you love.
Talking and discussing the direction of the game to help Blizzard take the right decisions and other players to improve their play are all good and well. However the constant whine about the game itself as in having no place in e-sports, it is just plain destructive.
I think you've just assumed the answer to the question "is HotS worth it" for everyone. But you have no way of knowing that, and nothing to back up your statement. Some people actually do have a higher standard for games, that they expected from Blizzard and other companies, but in this case did not receive. Its not unthinkable that this could happen, and you can't simply use as an argument "we all know its worth it". Things are a bit more complicated than that, and people have good reasons for choosing not to buy the expansion.
It makes way more sense that they are simply looking for help in order to decide whether they should buy a game or not, than that they are purposely trying to hurt a community that they love. Its completely nonsensical to say that people are willingly hurting the community they love...and for what reason, you've provided none.
On the other hand, it makes 1000x more sense to suggest that they are simply looking for information and opinions on whether the game is worth the money they are thinking of paying for the game. The same questions are asked about many other games in the "sports & games" area; its natural, common behavior.
You'll also have to qualify what you mean by "whine". Because a lot of people are taking you to mean that complaining about balance, the boring nature of the units and deathball combat, or the lame hollywood-style storylines (for single player), are some form of whining. If you don't mean any of those things, then what else could you possibly mean? Because this is essentially what people complain about.
Yet it is those same things that if brought up enough, will help Blizzard change the direction of the game towards what the fans want, so according to you anything that could be considered whining is constructive as well, and at this point it is unclear what you are supporting and what you are detracting, and why. I mean you have to recognize that negative feedback is actually important for many products and companies...otherwise they don't know what's wrong, or how to improve.
I think the only meaningful point you can make is that people shouldn't be over the top with their criticism or anger; i.e. that they should try to only make constructive criticisms. If that's all you wanted to say, I would suggest you rephrase it to make it more clear. But you are from Norway so I forgive you  . I suppose English isn't your first language, and from your post it looks like you may still have a bit of difficulty with it.
Edit: Also I wanted to comment on something else you said:
Sponsors and players are reading this and making decisions based upon the public opinion.
It is common knowledge that those who play and are happy doesn't make posts. It is the other half who does and by doing so dominate the media with destructive information, as mentioned before, limits the immediate growth.
I don't think sponsors and players are so fickle as to rely on people's forum posts to judge the financial stability and future of the game. The real information that people follow are stream viewing numbers, tournament viewing numbers, and the amount of money people pay for subscriptions. That is the only reliable way to know whether a game is successful or not, and what its trends are, rather than trying to extrapolate what hundreds of thousands of people think from dozens of posts being made on Team Liquid.
You've assumed that people are heavily affected by posts on TL, but you don't really have any basis for saying so. On the down side, what you are suggesting is that we stop free speech and people's right to an opinion because there is the potential that sponsors and players could be hurt by the negative feedback people give.
This is standard business practice. People give negative reviews everywhere...it serves a crucial role, not only to other consumers who are thinking of playing the game or using whatever product (in general), but it also helps the company see what flaws exist and how to fix them, as I have explained already.
Again you need to clarify what you mean by whining.
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I understand the thinking behind the OP but i don't think you can demand people to change. Especially on the internet. It's not about blindly following and agreeing with blizz. It's that even good threads and constuctive criticism always get derailed by whining, trolls, and uninformed people. It's much easier to pile onto the situation than it is to step back and figure out ways to make a positive impact. All of the good ideas out there get dwarfed by the amount of negative trash. Even if blizz had people monitoring the community how much trash would you expect them to wade through to get to the good ideas and then to get those ideas through the system to even get discussed.
It's like with any service or product. Your negative feedback will always far outweigh your positive feedback even if you are doing a fantastic job. I don't think that blizz has done everything right but they are headed in the right direction. I think too many people will take hold of negative ideas they read on forums and ride those until the end. The amount of games that are lost due to imbalance is far less than the amount of games that are talked about being lost due to imbalance. It's partialy because this game is turned into such a competition that people are less willing to accept their own flaws in gameplay and take the easy way out and go with an opinion they read on a forum.
I'm in no way saying there aren't issues with the game. But calling for game boycotts and claiming imbalance/bad design/ignoring community constantly isn't the way to go either.
I think a lot of people need to learn the difference between constructive criticism and just complaining.
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Why would I buy Hots when Bw is still more fun to play than Sc2. I already made the mistake of buying Diablo 3. I am not gonna make the same mistake twice. It is up to Blizzard to make their game fun not me.
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I used to watch a lot of Sc2 as well as BW, CS and Wc3 before that but I eventually lost interest in those games and now I'm watching some Dota2. So I would consider me an esports-fan for years, but I really couldn't care less for this whole "growing esports" thing.
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If the e-sports market is incapable of withstanding the haters it shouldn't be standing anyway.
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you can like a game without liking this whole "esport" business. just saying.
if someone has no interest in seeing the scene expand (i.e. me), is it something so reprehensible? of course, i realise that players have to eat, so i'd rather it not contract as well...but that shouldn't stop people from voicing their opinions.
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OK, I'm just going to say it, fuck esports. I'm really beginning to dislike what people use that word for these days.
If a game is worth your free time and dedication then by all means do what you wish to in celebrating your love for it, but if a game isn't doesn't elicit someone's unbridled praise or admiration, then that's simply how it is. Is SC2 good? Yes. Is it a game without flaws or issues? Simply, no. There are very few games that are even close to flawless (BW included), but discourse like this is not at all helpful to your intended goal, as you are basically trying to tell people to stop bitching when they feel they have legitimate concerns.
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Why can't there be always a healthy number of negative and positive posts. You don't think there are people writing about the decline or the "death" of NHL or MLB all the time. Negative post and drama posts are just as necessary as positive posts. It helps drive conversation and helps create intrigue around the sport. ESPN would almost always rather talk about Tim Tebow and his religious impact than actual football. People deny the fact that they don't like to tune into drama but ratings don't lie. Ratings triple when they talk about other things besides Tim Tebow's quarter backing play. ESPN would rather talk about Tiger Wood's affair than the consistency of his new golf swing. We need to try to embrace negative posts and drama and face the fact that these things will never go away nor should it.
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On January 14 2013 03:25 Malaz wrote:
I used to watch a lot of Sc2 as well as BW, CS and Wc3 before that but I eventually lost interest in those games and now I'm watching some Dota2. So I would consider me an esports-fan for years, but I really couldn't care less for this whole "growing esports" thing.
DotA 2 is really in the " right" scheme now I feel. Still a very community driven game,
I'm a generalist esport fan, from RTS to Dota'like with fighting game or FPS in the middle, and the mentality SC2 and LoL are showing right now is a bit flawed to what made us love esport.
Way too much people thinking over their head and not trying to just enjoy what we have.
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But guys if we don't randomly buy HOTS even if we dont like it, esports fails!(as if sc2 is the only esport lol.....)
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We all know it, so why do some people act like rats on a sinking ship when the ship is quite safe as it is.
Some of us like to think and talk about reality, rather than about a fantasy land where everything is the way we wish it were.
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Does the OP actually play the game ?
Esports is the result of a fun, competitive and entertaining game. It's not some kind of dreamy world we can all together make it happen even if we don't enjoy it. That only works if you are Riot and got shit tons of cash.
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On January 14 2013 03:36 wo1fwood wrote:
OK, I'm just going to say it, fuck esports. I'm really beginning to dislike what people use that word for these days.
No dude see this is where you're wrong..
We don't need to have good gameplay, connectivity between regions of the world, or good future direction for the game.
All we need is endless fake hype, dr pepper pregame shows and announcements about someone joining/leaving a team every 12 hours. If you don't want to contribute to that and let the game itself languish, you're literally hitler. Welcome to teamliquid.
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 14 2013 01:38 Kuni wrote:
If you don't care about esports, and believe it or not, there are people who don't give a damn about it and just enjoy playing videogames for what they are, there is no reason to artificially support it by faking activity, viewership, sympathy or anything else.
This. "eSports" won't grow by people "trying to make it happen" and going out of their way to have multiple streams open or things like that. It will grow from more people enjoying the game and giving it their time, whether to play or to watch. Football doesn't become popular because people want it to become the "#1 sport" and they want more money to go to the players. It becomes popular because there are many people who wholesomely love the game. No need to force things.
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United States10341 Posts
I feel like I've read an OP like this on a dozen separate occasions...
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On January 14 2013 01:24 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:18 kollin wrote:On January 14 2013 01:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat. Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction. I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction. Viewership isn't down. Please at least do some research before just stating something like it is a fact. Maybe tournament viewership isn't down, but stream viewership most definitely is.
Why would I watch streams when there are tournaments on 24/7? I used to watch streams when there wasn't anything better on, but lately there is so much to watch in terms of awesome well produced content that it leaves no time for streams unless it's a really exceptional one (Nestea streaming).
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On January 14 2013 04:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
I feel like I've read an OP like this on a dozen separate occasions...
It happens when enterprising young social media experts see 'negative, cynical' threads and want a piece of the pie.
Like all things, it shall pass..
On January 14 2013 04:29 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I contribute....
by writing DRG-Blogs
<3
See what I mean?
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On January 14 2013 01:24 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:18 kollin wrote:On January 14 2013 01:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat. Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction. I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction. Viewership isn't down. Please at least do some research before just stating something like it is a fact. Maybe tournament viewership isn't down, but stream viewership most definitely is.
Less interesting players are streaming to be honest...
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If the game is boring or stale, or poorly designed then players have a right to complain about it. Sure there are bandwagon'ers but most complaints are a result of Blizzard.
If sponsors decide not to invest in the SCII scene then it will not have been because of the community. That is for sure.
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BW succeeded because the company wasn't involved and the grassroots interest was there. SC2 was born from Blizzard's desire to meddle incessantly and the grassroots support suffered because of that fact and is waning further now.
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On January 14 2013 04:41 lolmlg wrote:
BW succeeded because the company wasn't involved and the grassroots interest was there. SC2 was born from Blizzard's desire to meddle incessantly and the grassroots support suffered because of that fact and is waning further now.
It's not necessarily problematic that Blizzard wants to meddle into the game all the time. What is, however, is the fact that they show little regard to the community's demands or only meet them much, much later, all the while maintaining the facade that they care and listen very much.
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We all know any flaming or trolling on SC2 is just an lol player in disguise.
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United States23455 Posts
well i am
so jokes on you, op.
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On January 14 2013 00:52 Nimitz.no wrote:
Starcraft is here to stay and I write this in frustration with the negative posts that occur from time to time in the forums. The latest one is "Is HOTS worth it".
We all know it, so why do some people act like rats on a sinking ship when the ship is quite safe as it is.
Obviously you don't know if "stacraft is here to stay",you aren't a prophet nor do you have a crystal ball.
What do you mean by "we all know it"?If by we all know it you mean:"we all know Hots is worth it",than no and if anyone asks me for my advice I'd tell him to not waste your money on Hots now as it is.
This is why:
When you ask this question and talk constant about how SC2 has no future you contribute to limit the immediate growth of e-sports. Yes you are outright hurting the community you love.
I am not going to support something that I think is not worth supporting.Stacraft isn't my whole life,it's my hobby.If I happen to think at a point in time that it isn't worth my time anymore I'll stop following it and ignore it completely.
Right now I'm on the edge but I still feel like I care at least enough to tell blizzard that their game sucks in many aspects and that they need to change it.
Talking and discussing the direction of the game to help Blizzard take the right decisions and other players to improve their play are all good and well. However the constant whine about the game itself as in having no place in e-sports, it is just plain destructive.
The constant whine is there because blizzard is doing a shit job,the main people in charge that is.Obviously people are unhappy and they are voicing their opinion.It took a ridic amount of time and whine to at least make blizzard understand why their ladder maps suck and why they should use tournament maps.If we just sat around and did nothing we would still be playing on kulas ravine probably.
Sponsors and players are reading this and making decisions based upon the public opinion.
It is common knowledge that those who play and are happy doesn't make posts. It is the other half who does and by doing so dominate the media with destructive information, as mentioned before, limits the immediate growth.
So what you are saying is you want us to intentionally mislead a company into thinking everything is all dandy and we all love the game just how it is so people can get money from them?good plan.
This can be compared to the stock-marked as well. Would you as a possible investor/buyer invest in stocks which are flooded with negative information ? the information is not from reliable sources but they are the only sources available to you.
Who are you to say what's a reliable source and what isn't?I say the game is terrible as is now and you say it's fantastic.So who's in the right?
Again it is super to discuss tactic and strategy, but to attack the game itself in frustration based upon lack of success or balance issues you think is unfair, is not contributing to the community it is limiting it's immediate possibilities.
Great because if blizzard,by the time of introduction of LotV,still thinks that the colossus is good units design and I have a thing like that in multiplayer than I'd rather have the game die altogether because I sure won't be part of the community anymore..
The pro teams and players depend on sponsors to make a living and to entertain you. Show them the respect they deserve by contributing and not "pissing in the well"
I don't owe them anything if I'm not entertained and even if I am I'm paying my dues by not using adblock.The reasons I think the game sucks overall atm has nothing to do with them but with blizzard.
So does SC2 have a future ? you all know the answer so the question itself is plain stupid.
Stacrafts future is as clear as that of any other esport,it will fade and it will die.The question is how long it will be around.
How do we make it grow and look brighter ? That is the real question.
By being honest to ourselves and the developer and not being a blind fanboy.
Fanboi ? yes of course I am a fan. I love it.
Exactly
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On January 14 2013 04:28 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
I feel like I've read an OP like this on a dozen separate occasions... It happens when enterprising young social media experts see 'negative, cynical' threads and want a piece of the pie. Like all things, it shall pass.. Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:29 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I contribute....
by writing DRG-Blogs
<3
See what I mean?
Not sure i am that young, I am an old 42 year IT consultant with my own company and 5 employees, besides the point tho. But the aggression some of you show is weird as this is just another topic with opinions in it  . My point is about the negative marketing it brings, nothing more and nothing less.
However attacking whiners for whining is doomed to have some aggressive responses
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United States10341 Posts
On January 14 2013 04:48 Nimitz.no wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:28 yeastiality wrote:On January 14 2013 04:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
I feel like I've read an OP like this on a dozen separate occasions... It happens when enterprising young social media experts see 'negative, cynical' threads and want a piece of the pie. Like all things, it shall pass.. On January 14 2013 04:29 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I contribute....
by writing DRG-Blogs
<3
See what I mean? I am an old 42 year IT consultant with my own company and 5 employees, besides the point tho.
Wow so impressive, and believable, AND relevant
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On January 14 2013 01:20 skeldark wrote:
Why there are people who want everyone to love what they love and cant handle critic?
This is why:
They are insecure and can not deal with different opinions.
When you say other people what to say, you will stay in your closed mindset and hurt the one you love.
Yourself!
Not the random rant are the problem of the community.
The naive people who dont care for gaming and just want to be a part of something big (e-sport) is the problem!
No, it's because literally nothing can make these people happy. A foreigner wins against a Korean? Well, if it's online, then it's obviously because of cross-server lag. If it's offline, then the Korean is obviously jetlagged.
Blizzard nerfing Infestors? Not enough. Blizzard making huge strides with HOTS? They've obviously fucked balance. At least, that's what all of the armchair "We're not even in the Beta but we know more about balance than Blizzard" balance whiners say.
Tournaments make 100,000 views? LoL got 500,000. Tournament has a $30,000 first place prize? It should be $50,000.
Cynics have set themselves into the community and have pervaded it like a cancer. We say we're better than the LoL, fighting game, FPS, and Dota communities...but how? Our manner? Really? That was a self-fulfilling prophecy that people like Day[9] perpetuated because they never actually read the forums and went off of the few nice things people did for others/for them. I guarantee you that for every dumbshit thing said on the LoL forums we have an equally shitty thing said on TL or Reddit.
It's this idea that our game is the best and our community is the best, so we're the kings of the world that's the problem. Because when people realize that we're not, that we're just like every other community in the history of the gaming community, they blame everyone but themselves. They blame Blizzard, the teams, literally everyone but themselves. You know what might have hurt the expansion of SC2 and further investment? How about both the shitty Infestor balance AND community pitchforking? How about the normal decline in viewership (that isn't nearly as drastic as people say/said it was) is because people naturally went on to watch other games, as opposed to it's all Blizzard's fault?
But no. It's Blizzard's fault. Or it's EG's fault. Or it's KESPA's, GOM's, or MLG's fault. Anyone but our own. And that's the true message I think the OP is trying to convey here. The "blame" might just be more than one person's. Like, you know, how everything else in the world works.
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esports is a non issue, it'll always be there. people adore esports.
the issue is sc2 itself. there are long time followers of the game, hence the craziest hype of any game for sc2, the sequel to a video game that has created the most popular and lucrative esports league in the world. then it turns out the game is a bit far off from the good aspects of the original, so the community has tried making changes for the better, FRB, sc2bw, endless threads on game design, unit deisgn, game balance, features, etc.
so did blizzard/sc2 listen to the community? no (or very, very slow at it), they're just doing things the way want to. so its only natural many people will wonder "why???"
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On January 14 2013 04:50 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:48 Nimitz.no wrote:On January 14 2013 04:28 yeastiality wrote:On January 14 2013 04:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
I feel like I've read an OP like this on a dozen separate occasions... It happens when enterprising young social media experts see 'negative, cynical' threads and want a piece of the pie. Like all things, it shall pass.. On January 14 2013 04:29 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I contribute....
by writing DRG-Blogs
<3
See what I mean? I am an old 42 year IT consultant with my own company and 5 employees, besides the point tho. Wow so impressive, and believable, AND relevant
Hehe If you see what i comment and quote it is quite relevant, not in the discussion itself but as to the statement he made. Doesn't matter tho as it ain't about me.
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On January 14 2013 04:36 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:24 Luepert wrote:On January 14 2013 01:18 kollin wrote:On January 14 2013 01:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat. Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction. I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction. Viewership isn't down. Please at least do some research before just stating something like it is a fact. Maybe tournament viewership isn't down, but stream viewership most definitely is. Less interesting players are streaming to be honest...
That is also valid. If it is not a member of EG or a fun member of TL, I don't really watch streams. Viewship will shoot up again when HotS hits. Or if there are new maps, because I think we have all seen every possible game on the current map set.
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On January 14 2013 04:51 Mauldo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:20 skeldark wrote:
Why there are people who want everyone to love what they love and cant handle critic?
This is why:
They are insecure and can not deal with different opinions.
When you say other people what to say, you will stay in your closed mindset and hurt the one you love.
Yourself!
Not the random rant are the problem of the community.
The naive people who dont care for gaming and just want to be a part of something big (e-sport) is the problem! No, it's because literally nothing can make these people happy. A foreigner wins against a Korean? Well, if it's online, then it's obviously because of cross-server lag. If it's offline, then the Korean is obviously jetlagged. Blizzard nerfing Infestors? Not enough. Blizzard making huge strides with HOTS? They've obviously fucked balance. At least, that's what all of the armchair "We're not even in the Beta but we know more about balance than Blizzard" balance whiners say. Tournaments make 100,000 views? LoL got 500,000. Tournament has a $30,000 first place prize? It should be $50,000. Cynics have set themselves into the community and have pervaded it like a cancer. We say we're better than the LoL, fighting game, FPS, and Dota communities...but how? Our manner? Really? That was a self-fulfilling prophecy that people like Day[9] perpetuated because they never actually read the forums and went off of the few nice things people did for others/for them. I guarantee you that for every dumbshit thing said on the LoL forums we have an equally shitty thing said on TL or Reddit. It's this idea that our game is the best and our community is the best, so we're the kings of the world that's the problem. Because when people realize that we're not, that we're just like every other community in the history of the gaming community, they blame everyone but themselves. They blame Blizzard, the teams, literally everyone but themselves. You know what might have hurt the expansion of SC2 and further investment? How about both the shitty Infestor balance AND community pitchforking? How about the normal decline in viewership (that isn't nearly as drastic as people say/said it was) is because people naturally went on to watch other games, as opposed to it's all Blizzard's fault? But no. It's Blizzard's fault. Or it's EG's fault. Or it's KESPA's, GOM's, or MLG's fault. Anyone but our own. And that's the true message I think the OP is trying to convey here. The "blame" might just be more than one person's. Like, you know, how everything else in the world works.
Food for thought, I like this post.
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On January 14 2013 04:48 Nimitz.no wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:28 yeastiality wrote:On January 14 2013 04:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
I feel like I've read an OP like this on a dozen separate occasions... It happens when enterprising young social media experts see 'negative, cynical' threads and want a piece of the pie. Like all things, it shall pass.. On January 14 2013 04:29 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I contribute....
by writing DRG-Blogs
<3
See what I mean? Not sure i am that young, I am an old 42 year IT consultant with my own company and 5 employees, besides the point tho. But the aggression some of you show is weird as this is just another topic with opinions in it . My point is about the negative marketing it brings, nothing more and nothing less. However attacking whiners for whining is doomed to have some aggressive responses
Dood, seriously, just stop. What you're saying is 'instead of being negative dicks, try being happy, positive, optimistic' and so on and so off. And if it's May 2012, there's flowers in the trees and the beautiful scent of summer is crawling up your skin, then you couldn't be righter. Let's hold hands and hope that SCII's future is bright. No need to flame.
Back to reality, the Woodstock 2012 ship has long sailed, and probably the last ticket was sold along the time certain someones went on the lines of 'Ok, Ok, Guys, we have it - Infestor eggs to 80HP!'. 'Master Chief, all due respect, that makes zero sense - they don't even die to storm!', some attentive individual from the third row quickly notices.
'We meant 70, don't be silly'.
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On January 14 2013 04:52 jinorazi wrote:
esports is a non issue, it'll always be there. people adore esports.
the issue is sc2 itself. there are long time followers of the game, hence the craziest hype of any game for sc2, the sequel to a video game that has created the most popular and lucrative esports league in the world. then it turns out the game is a bit far off from the good aspects of the original, so the community has tried making changes for the better, FRB, sc2bw, endless threads on game design, unit deisgn, game balance, features, etc.
so did blizzard/sc2 listen to the community? no (or very, very slow at it), they're just doing things the way want to. so its only natural many people will wonder "why???"
Dude stop trying. I have no idea why this guy created this thread other than to dismiss valid arguments based on facts and reality as "lol you didn't read the op" or "whiners get mad if you call them whiners". I don't know if he's trolling (very big possibility considering hisr claims of being 42 and an IT consultant compared to the quality and thought put into his posting) but either way this thread is not going anywhere if all the OP does is agree with the people who agree with him and disregard everyone else. -_-
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On January 14 2013 05:01 Nimitz.no wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:51 Mauldo wrote:On January 14 2013 01:20 skeldark wrote:
Why there are people who want everyone to love what they love and cant handle critic?
This is why:
They are insecure and can not deal with different opinions.
When you say other people what to say, you will stay in your closed mindset and hurt the one you love.
Yourself!
Not the random rant are the problem of the community.
The naive people who dont care for gaming and just want to be a part of something big (e-sport) is the problem! No, it's because literally nothing can make these people happy. A foreigner wins against a Korean? Well, if it's online, then it's obviously because of cross-server lag. If it's offline, then the Korean is obviously jetlagged. Blizzard nerfing Infestors? Not enough. Blizzard making huge strides with HOTS? They've obviously fucked balance. At least, that's what all of the armchair "We're not even in the Beta but we know more about balance than Blizzard" balance whiners say. Tournaments make 100,000 views? LoL got 500,000. Tournament has a $30,000 first place prize? It should be $50,000. Cynics have set themselves into the community and have pervaded it like a cancer. We say we're better than the LoL, fighting game, FPS, and Dota communities...but how? Our manner? Really? That was a self-fulfilling prophecy that people like Day[9] perpetuated because they never actually read the forums and went off of the few nice things people did for others/for them. I guarantee you that for every dumbshit thing said on the LoL forums we have an equally shitty thing said on TL or Reddit. It's this idea that our game is the best and our community is the best, so we're the kings of the world that's the problem. Because when people realize that we're not, that we're just like every other community in the history of the gaming community, they blame everyone but themselves. They blame Blizzard, the teams, literally everyone but themselves. You know what might have hurt the expansion of SC2 and further investment? How about both the shitty Infestor balance AND community pitchforking? How about the normal decline in viewership (that isn't nearly as drastic as people say/said it was) is because people naturally went on to watch other games, as opposed to it's all Blizzard's fault? But no. It's Blizzard's fault. Or it's EG's fault. Or it's KESPA's, GOM's, or MLG's fault. Anyone but our own. And that's the true message I think the OP is trying to convey here. The "blame" might just be more than one person's. Like, you know, how everything else in the world works. Food for thought, I like this post.
Agreed. The man hits the nail on the head when it comes to the blame game, masked as criticism.
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I've bought Wings, and I'll buy HotS, LotV and pay for whatever eSports events I want to watch.
However, in no way will I ever be cured of my skepticism and cynicism. As a long time player of Blizzard games, I've had the privilege of watching their quality go down. I only hope, that by the dying years of this sequel, that it will be a product worthy of the Blizzard name.
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I haven't posted anything negative in forums. I haven't even participated in the #saveHOTS thing. I try to be as positive as I can. But my problem is that generally I haven't enjoyed watching sc2 since 2012 summer with the exception of Proleague. This is due to a combination of really bad maps, balance issues, stale metagame, foreigners not a giving a fuck, tournament politics.
Thankfully I have Proleague. When I can't watch a match live because I have school, all I am thinking about all day is Proleague.
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Guys next time you one star someones blog and dismiss it as terrible,please,don't.
Just think about how much effort this person has put into writing it and how his feelings might get hurt because you just one starred a little piece of his sole.
We should encourage people to write as much girl and ladder blogs as possible,just think what will become of OPshot if he doesn't get his weekly fix.
Unite my brothers,we shall start by bringing quantichawk to the gallows.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
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On January 14 2013 05:23 EvilTeletubby wrote:
Moved to Blogs.
fucking called it lol
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fuck esports, so sick of esports everywhere...
if a game is good and enjoyable, I'll play it and maybe follow some tournaments
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I find this attitude of blaming pessimistic people for misfortune very strange to be honest. To push stereotypes, Germans are generally pessimistic about everything and we think that being able to nag about something is our god-given right. The very idea that something won't work because someone is negative about it is alien to us because there is no such thing which we aren't at least a little bit pessimistic about. It's a way to show our affection about the topic. Contrary to that, I sometimes have the impression that for example in the US people criticizing the badwagon are seen as backstabbers ("Nestbeschmutzer").
Personally, I very much dislike the idea of "being negative damages our interests because it deters sponsors investors". Thought taboos by too-well-meaning people might have some truth to them. But the idea this deliberate submission is what we must do to reach our goals makes me question whether the idea we are fighting for is worth it.
You shouldn't make the mistake to think that those that contribute and those that are negative cynics are separate groups.
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is the OP a blizz empolyee in disguise?
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On January 14 2013 04:27 iglocska wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 01:24 Luepert wrote:On January 14 2013 01:18 kollin wrote:On January 14 2013 01:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat. Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction. I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction. Viewership isn't down. Please at least do some research before just stating something like it is a fact. Maybe tournament viewership isn't down, but stream viewership most definitely is. Why would I watch streams when there are tournaments on 24/7? I used to watch streams when there wasn't anything better on, but lately there is so much to watch in terms of awesome well produced content that it leaves no time for streams unless it's a really exceptional one (Nestea streaming).
Because it's how a large portion of the progamers make their money. If pros stop maing money, the scene will die.
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On January 14 2013 06:45 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:27 iglocska wrote:On January 14 2013 01:24 Luepert wrote:On January 14 2013 01:18 kollin wrote:On January 14 2013 01:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 14 2013 01:10 n0ise wrote:
SCIIs decline was in Blizzard's court, they ruined this year, not the people venting their frustration. If their point was seeing how many people they can alienate from the game in record time, they did a fantastic job.
Bingo. I have been pessimistic about the future, but I really want SC2 to succeed and I don't think we get there by not sharing how we really feel about the game. A few months ago, maybe a year now, SC2 was doing amazing, high viewership, lots of viable strategies, it was really neat. Now the viable strategies are figured out and relatively stale, viewership is down, ect... Blizzard hasn't been shaping the game in a fun and dynamic direction. I've been more hopeful lately that when HOTS is released it will get the changes it needs as pros move over, and move SC2 in the right direction. Viewership isn't down. Please at least do some research before just stating something like it is a fact. Maybe tournament viewership isn't down, but stream viewership most definitely is. Why would I watch streams when there are tournaments on 24/7? I used to watch streams when there wasn't anything better on, but lately there is so much to watch in terms of awesome well produced content that it leaves no time for streams unless it's a really exceptional one (Nestea streaming). Because it's how a large portion of the progamers make their money. If pros stop maing money, the scene will die.
Or they, and sponsors, will have to adapt to the dwindling returns of viewership on single streams and find a new way to make consistent money.
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On January 14 2013 05:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:52 jinorazi wrote:
esports is a non issue, it'll always be there. people adore esports.
the issue is sc2 itself. there are long time followers of the game, hence the craziest hype of any game for sc2, the sequel to a video game that has created the most popular and lucrative esports league in the world. then it turns out the game is a bit far off from the good aspects of the original, so the community has tried making changes for the better, FRB, sc2bw, endless threads on game design, unit deisgn, game balance, features, etc.
so did blizzard/sc2 listen to the community? no (or very, very slow at it), they're just doing things the way want to. so its only natural many people will wonder "why???" Dude stop trying. I have no idea why this guy created this thread other than to dismiss valid arguments based on facts and reality as "lol you didn't read the op" or "whiners get mad if you call them whiners". I don't know if he's trolling (very big possibility considering hisr claims of being 42 and an IT consultant compared to the quality and thought put into his posting) but either way this thread is not going anywhere if all the OP does is agree with the people who agree with him and disregard everyone else. -_-
Well you should have an idea since I address the negative marketing and I thought that is quite clear . Regarding your point that I dismiss valid arguments are wrong in my opinion, at least I don't do this deliberately . I do not think it is wrong to not like the direction the game takes and discuss balance or whether Blizzard ignores the users.
I totally agree that people have the right to complain, the opposite would be stupid, but to predict the doom and trying to convince others to abandon ship is just plain destructive. If you don't like it, state what you are not happy with and just move on and focus on things you really like, If that's LoL or Dota like Destiny, fine. Sure he explains his reasons for going elsewhere but he doesn't linger and spend his time trying to limit what Sc2 can achieve.
I have watched most tournaments online I think. My interest has declined for some of them. One in particular is GOMTV, not because the games are bad or anything like that. I have watched it since the beginning of Open season 1 where it was free to watch, all the way up this Christmas. The reason I stopped subscribing now is purely related to their greed.
The tournaments viewers are per today heavily dominated by young people in their studies with limited income, and to rise the cost by making loads of different products and prizing them high as if this is an ordinary TV station is why I personally stopped supporting them now.
There is a difference between complaining/disagreeing to what Blizzard is doing, than it is to spend time and effort into trying to destroy it. This is the whole point of the post and reading my initial post i agree that it come across as way to negative.
Finally, claiming to be 42 and having a job is unbelievable ? I don't know what to say.
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EPT
