• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:25
CEST 19:25
KST 02:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
Soulkey on ASL S20 BW General Discussion ASL20 General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro16 Group C BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2521 users

Breakthrough Competitive Pt. 2 (archive)

Blogs > Liquid`FLUFF
Post a Reply
FLUFFNSTUFF
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States51 Posts
December 24 2012 08:06 GMT
#1
(06-29-2012)

As always, I'll try to highlight the main points in red.

In Response to thread: http://nadota.com/showthread.php?975...ing-new-strats

Firstly, it is important to note that you shouldn't try to completely innovate your draft when you're breaking through into competitive. No matter how great your strategy may seem, it still needs to be somewhat relevant to the current competitive meta. I suggest trying to look at common strategies being used and thinking of ways you can counteract their strategy.

*Note: The reason why I say that you shouldn't try to be completely creative with your drafts is because of the volatility of up-and-coming teams. You want to be able to identify the reasons you lose and not have to blame the picks. That is usually the first argument that comes to mind each time a team loses. It also demoralizes the captain. So for all of you out there with ambitious leaders, realize the magnitude of responsibility that they undertake. For all the captains out there, you need to develop a thick skin. It is important for you to consider everyone's opinions, but you also need to learn how to filter out the good and the crap. Do not take every single criticism to heart.

Strategies can be counteracted in a number of ways: (For example)

1. Blatantly counter-picking lane setups

1a. A popular example is mTw and Infs running these Juggernaut dual lanes on short to counteract offensive trilanes. (Dreamhack 2012 mTw vs Na`vi game 2)
1b. Link with timestamp (Couldn't find any english ones for some reason)

1c. My thoughts on this: typically you would see this type of offensive trilane (NS, Lesh, Bane paired with Invoker Sunstrikes) completely dominating the lane. Not only does it create a very uncomfortable situation, it also has massive pushing potential with edict. mTw responded very well and fended off this very potent offensive attempt. By completely countering a lane with massive potential, mTw secures a fair mid game which would otherwise be a total disaster (if things went Na`vi's way).
1d. So in conclusion, I think that you can look to counter lanes in any situation. It is one of the most simple concepts that can go a long way. These tactics are not just limited to laning setups, hero counters are subject to this as well.

As far as my comment about being competitively relevant goes: Lineups still do require certain elements that make them successful. Any given strategy today will have certain elements like control and push. Unless your strategy revolves around some different aspect that can ignore these elements, not having similar utilities will make your lineup weaker in general. Consider laning setups and do not put yourself into situations where your long lane is completely terrible or you lose 1v1 matchups because you want a specific hero. Like ixmike stated earlier, consider variations and account for possible counters.

A very common scenario would be like this: You have a trilane on short, and your opponent has a trilane on short. The only difference is that their trilane has a jungler and yours does not. What ends up happening a lot of the time is that you, very rapidly, get outfarmed and eventually outpushed (often outganked as well). These very fast 3 minute, 6 minute tower push tactics will really set you behind. When they have an enchant (4 role) that is leaps and bounds ahead of your 4 player, you will have a problem. You'll find that each and every push that you attempt from that point will be susceptible to enemy split pushing. The trades that you make will not only be slower (due to a lack of pushing potential), but also unfavorable in terms of trading.

This is not to say that you necessarily need to mimic them and their strategy. However, it can put a lot of pressure on you to act. This will require more experience to differentiate the advantages and disadvantages of going for a jungler or not. There are ways to deal with everything and you shouldn't ever feel out of options. As you try to claw your way into the competitive scene, I suggest just copying strategies and methodology first. Once you've found your stride, you can branch off. My advice to those captains out there is to never let your pride dictate how drafts go. I know that it is extremely romantic to be this hotshot captain, like puppey or artstyle. However, they have a massive amount of experience and trust built over time. Remember that you are accountable to 4 others and that you really need to think deeply on the impact of your decisions.

I went on a little tangent above, but to address the actual question: How do teams handle practicing new strats? As well as, how can I run unique heroes in my lineups(?).

Practicing new strategies will require a focus. It needs a main objective and purpose. It is a good idea to realize which bans need to come out and why? For example, a team can ban Panda when they want to build a lineup around enigma (aoe strategies). Panda can obviously make it extremely difficult to land any successful black holes due to the invulnerability of the ultimate pandas and the cyclone. You also will want to consider the strengths and weaknesses of your unique hero to the meta. What I mean by this is that you should understand the top picks that you'll be giving up. Always keep in mind that if you want a choice lineup, you're giving up very potent heroes. You'll want to know how you scale against them and which ones you are fine with giving up.

*Note: Sometimes popular heroes, when combined, may not be as big of a threat as you perceive. So sometimes in a draft there are ways you can trick your opponents into opting into multiple top tier heroes, when in actuality it may hurt them. Not only that, but you can also make predictions beforehand as to which heroes they will take most likely. Thus you can account for different things. Sometimes teams will give up lycan and try to go offensive trilane to shut him down with their unique methods. Many times these heroes and how they operate in lineups become fairly predictable. You can use that to your advantage.

Figure out which player and which hero you want to build around. Is your player a great bane? There are very many ways to utilize this hero. His base stats are great 22 str 22 agi 22 int, he can be a support or mid, and he has great abilities. Do not get overcarried with all of the "synergies" between skills and force yourself into drafts that lack critical elements (like I said earlier). Just think about the strengths and weaknesses of the hero in question and figure out how to accommodate him into a standard lineup.

Some carries, for example, might require heroes like beastmaster to push their dps over the edge. Luckily a hero like BM is very versatile and easy to get. From there you can look to heroes that abuse auras (most commonly chen and vengeful spirit). This is one of the most common strategies we see.

This is completely off-topic (extra thoughts):

I, personally, try to think to myself many hours a day. I recommend finding your best meditative environment. For me, it is the shower. I feel completely relaxed and able to tune out all of the things that can distract me (tv, computer, people). No matter how many hours I put into theorycrafting and looking over replays, most of my best thoughts come from these 30 minute breaks from the world. My advice to you, is to find your zen moments and duplicate them ritualistically. Force yourself to shut down everything that will distract you and take time out of each day to be at peace.

Watch replays, watch replays, and watch replays. I know, first-hand, how painful it is to watch a loss. It can really tear at your soul, like no other thing. I recommend getting into the habit of watching every single game you play. Try to identify what you and your teammates can do better. Point it out to them and make sure you look for your opponents tendencies. I don't really want to get into how to watch a replay because it is simply too much for this post.

My final thoughts on replays are: Watch wins and losses. I know that people will often ignore watching victories, but it has been a great help for me. I've learned so many things from each and every replay. I hardly find a replay that doesn't teach me something new. It is a huge benefit to you and your team to constantly review yourselves. I know that players will sometimes feel like they've hit a cap in terms of skill and ability. Watching replays consistently is a way to dramatically improve skill and focus. It is often a very overlooked practice for many different reasons (including ego and impatience).

*****
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 16h 35m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 209
JuggernautJason126
ProTech87
Codebar 31
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 25389
Horang2 1794
Bisu 1599
EffOrt 661
Mini 409
Hyuk 292
Larva 208
Soulkey 112
hero 97
Rush 90
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 88
Hyun 38
Aegong 34
ToSsGirL 26
Yoon 21
scan(afreeca) 16
Sexy 8
IntoTheRainbow 8
sas.Sziky 0
Dota 2
Gorgc7450
qojqva3496
XcaliburYe162
Fuzer 46
League of Legends
Trikslyr64
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1161
fl0m880
Other Games
gofns22858
tarik_tv21410
FrodaN1263
Beastyqt549
Lowko336
RotterdaM251
Hui .245
ArmadaUGS105
C9.Mang074
QueenE56
mouzStarbuck34
NeuroSwarm34
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 2
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix14
• Azhi_Dahaki3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2311
• WagamamaTV452
League of Legends
• Nemesis4059
• TFBlade555
Other Games
• imaqtpie209
• Shiphtur209
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
16h 35m
Zoun vs Classic
Map Test Tournament
17h 35m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 9h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 14h
RSL Revival
1d 16h
Reynor vs Cure
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.