Huk tweeted a photo of the Proleague stage a few minutes ago, and it made me think about the importance of tonight's match.
When the TL/EG announcement was made, most of the hype was about the formidable new team composition. Stephano, Taeja, HerO, Jaedong. Two teams that had never been in GSTL (beyond the one season Liquid-oGs partnership) were suddenly the collective favorites to win the Shinhan Proleague.
It's not surprising that the true significance of what happened got lost in the shuffle.
Foreigners used to be represented in Proleague. The Korean "AMD Dream Team" (also known as Hexatron) thrust foreigners onto the stage to represent them in teamleagues back in the 2003-2005 period. Legionnaire, Assem, Elky... those players had their moment in the spotlight, winning games on the big stage, showing that the commitment they'd made in coming to Korea wasn't for nothing.
But after 2005, no foreigner made an appearance on the Proleague stage again. Elky turned to poker. Assem and Legionnaire went home. And despite numerous attempts -- Idra, Nony, Ret, and Draco all tried -- no foreigner really ever came close to representing their team in Proleague. Koreans were too good. The teams were never serious about attracting and nurturing foreign talent (no, not even eSTRO). KeSPA obviously had no need to promote a domestically successful product outside of Korea.
But tonight, that changes. What tonight really represents is a new playing field. Jaedong and Huk playing on the same team? Flash vs Thorzain in the ace match? It could happen -- it's a Terran favored map, from what I hear! These matchups would have been unthinkable two years ago. A foreigner mentioned in the same sentence as Flash? On the same stage? A pipe dream. Yet, here we are.
I think a lot of foreigners that went to Korea could have gotten TV games if they had stuck with it. They played BW in Korea for a relatively short period of time. Idra was very much on his way but played SC2 instead. Nony got tired of it and wanted to prepare for SC2 as well. Ret felt he was not getting along that well. Draco was similarly having difficulty coping with the new culture and accepting his position as a B teamer, but was otherwise getting much better.
I would watch this but it is PPV and they are not even giving a sample lol. (oh, the stream is... sort of working? They confused me by randomly cutting out for 10 minutes).
On December 08 2012 11:55 docvoc wrote: Time to get another Grr~~ :O, ok that might be a bit of blasphemy but I can only hope ^^.
actually they should try to hire grrrr and he can help translate to the foreigners since he speaks fluent korean, i don't know though if he still lives in korea.
It was pretty damn likely that I would have gotten my opportunity to play some Proleague matches in summer 2009 (I arrived December 2008, left in February 2009). But because of the circumstances, there was a very low chance of me staying. So you could say I was close in the sense that I only had to stay and grind out four more months. There are certainly times when I wish I had said fuck it all and stayed and did it, especially with how things have actually turned out four years later. Oh well! This doesn't take anything away from your point though. Just a point of pride for me.
On December 08 2012 12:51 Liquid`NonY wrote: It was pretty damn likely that I would have gotten my opportunity to play some Proleague matches in summer 2009 (I arrived December 2008, left in February 2009). But because of the circumstances, there was a very low chance of me staying. So you could say I was close in the sense that I only had to stay and grind out four more months. There are certainly times when I wish I had said fuck it all and stayed and did it, especially with how things have actually turned out four years later. Oh well! This doesn't take anything away from your point though. Just a point of pride for me.
Would you have put yourself as captain of your FPL team?
Don't worry Nony, everyone who began this site with BW knows how good you were. 4 months is a long time to stick it out, but in terms of what I think B teamers normally have to do? You advanced very quickly. There's sometimes a misconception that foreigners who went to Korea just weren't good enough, but I think a lot of us recognize this has more to do with personal life than skill. It's easily shown by the way foreigners that come back from Korea tend to come back super strong.
Maybe if one person had stuck it out, we could have seen a bit of a watershed of foreigners, but this is not the way history was written..
On December 08 2012 13:53 fabiano wrote: Ok, just watched Stats vs Jaedong.
SC2 units are a joke.
Why is Jaedong always stuck with a team below his level?
The build Stats used on this particular map is extremely hard to deal with. Like someone else said, sending a Z against a P on that map was not the best decision ever.
On December 08 2012 13:53 fabiano wrote: Ok, just watched Stats vs Jaedong.
SC2 units are a joke.
Why is Jaedong always stuck with a team below his level?
Saying EGTL are below his level..is harsh. Taeja, HerO, and Stephano are playing brilliantly right now. Zenio didn't look half bad vs FLASH (yes, you read that right God himself), and the other games were meh, but still. The team itself isn't full of no name players. Each one has his story, has produced results, and is brilliant at times.
On December 08 2012 13:53 fabiano wrote: Ok, just watched Stats vs Jaedong.
SC2 units are a joke.
Why is Jaedong always stuck with a team below his level?
The build Stats used on this particular map is extremely hard to deal with. Like someone else said, sending a Z against a P on that map was not the best decision ever.
The maps were drawn after the player lineups were set up. It was changed so we don't get mirror matchups every game like last season.
On December 08 2012 13:53 fabiano wrote: Ok, just watched Stats vs Jaedong.
SC2 units are a joke.
Why is Jaedong always stuck with a team below his level?
The build Stats used on this particular map is extremely hard to deal with. Like someone else said, sending a Z against a P on that map was not the best decision ever.
The maps were drawn after the player lineups were set up. It was changed so we don't get mirror matchups every game like last season.
I thought I heard DoA say on stream that the teams decided which players to send out on which maps.
On December 08 2012 13:53 fabiano wrote: Ok, just watched Stats vs Jaedong.
SC2 units are a joke.
Why is Jaedong always stuck with a team below his level?
The build Stats used on this particular map is extremely hard to deal with. Like someone else said, sending a Z against a P on that map was not the best decision ever.
The maps were drawn after the player lineups were set up. It was changed so we don't get mirror matchups every game like last season.
I thought I heard DoA say on stream that the teams decided which players to send out on which maps.
I remember reading about it in the proleague announcement thread, but now I can't find it after skimming the first few pages.
On December 08 2012 13:53 fabiano wrote: Ok, just watched Stats vs Jaedong.
SC2 units are a joke.
Why is Jaedong always stuck with a team below his level?
The build Stats used on this particular map is extremely hard to deal with. Like someone else said, sending a Z against a P on that map was not the best decision ever.
The maps were drawn after the player lineups were set up. It was changed so we don't get mirror matchups every game like last season.
On December 08 2012 17:51 Alryk wrote: I feel like Thorzain was the most impressive player of the team... haha. All of them kind of rolled over and died, but still. >: (
But thorzain did roll over and die, he had a decent advantage in the game too, all he had to do was realize wtf the zerg was doing to win.
On December 08 2012 17:51 Alryk wrote: I feel like Thorzain was the most impressive player of the team... haha. All of them kind of rolled over and died, but still. >: (
But thorzain did roll over and die, he had a decent advantage in the game too, all he had to do was realize wtf the zerg was doing to win.
It was really kinda anticlimactic but we have to realise that the best players of EGTL haven't played yet, i mean zenio and thorzain aren't really the ones you can expect carrying the team, sadly.
Fully agree with the OP, its actually so freakin mindboggling... TL/EG players in the same team as Jaedong, playing against the likes of CJ, SKT, KT, woongjin.... wtf man, wtf
Don't agree with this since it's a different game. Meaning, this holds no significance at all because there is barely any connection besides a few teams and PL as an institution.
Is this really a dream if the game in context is totally different? JD, Flash or Bisu haven't established themselves in SC2 like they did in Brood War and this specific significance to me holds little weight given that the only thing to me that carries over are the names and the league they play in.
I mean IMO, you still cannot place a foreigner and Flash in the same sentence within the context of Brood War but that changes when you swap the words BW with SC2. Please don't take this the wrong way, I really do like SC2 but I just cannot understand the "true significance" behind it.
The only problem is that this is all possible only thanks to SC2, the death of BW, and the late transition of KeSPA players to SC2. The fact that none of these players (and players much better than them at BW) would have held a candle to the likes of Jaedong and Flash in BW makes this SC2 ProLeague feel like a farce to me.
But hey, the times are a changin', some people are souped and some people dismayed. That's how it is with everything in life.
In the end, this is my sentiment, perhaps unfortunately:
With many players though you cant just say "They were naturally superior than these SC2 players", because how would you know how someone like HerO (a teammate of Jaedong), or a Taeja would have developed, with someone like MC maybe its a different story but you cant just generalize and put all players into that category new game, new motivation, new mentality, we will see if ESF/GSTL teams will hold up a candle compared to kespa teams in the long term
"Two teams that had never been in GSTL (beyond the one season Liquid-oGs partnership) were suddenly the collective favorites to win the Shinhan Proleague."
oGs-TL was several seasons, Liquid played a full season by itself, and Slayers-EG made it to the finals. Both teams were fairly experienced with GSTL.
On December 08 2012 12:51 Liquid`NonY wrote: It was pretty damn likely that I would have gotten my opportunity to play some Proleague matches in summer 2009 (I arrived December 2008, left in February 2009). But because of the circumstances, there was a very low chance of me staying. So you could say I was close in the sense that I only had to stay and grind out four more months. There are certainly times when I wish I had said fuck it all and stayed and did it, especially with how things have actually turned out four years later. Oh well! This doesn't take anything away from your point though. Just a point of pride for me.
Obviously it's not in my place to say anything but I think you would have done great in Proleague/the team if the Korean teams were more tolerant lols...talent just had to get shat on by Koreans being Koreans
On December 08 2012 12:51 Liquid`NonY wrote: It was pretty damn likely that I would have gotten my opportunity to play some Proleague matches in summer 2009 (I arrived December 2008, left in February 2009). But because of the circumstances, there was a very low chance of me staying. So you could say I was close in the sense that I only had to stay and grind out four more months. There are certainly times when I wish I had said fuck it all and stayed and did it, especially with how things have actually turned out four years later. Oh well! This doesn't take anything away from your point though. Just a point of pride for me.
Obviously it's not in my place to say anything but I think you would have done great in Proleague/the team if the Korean teams were more tolerant lols...talent just had to get shat on by Koreans being Koreans
On December 08 2012 12:51 Liquid`NonY wrote: It was pretty damn likely that I would have gotten my opportunity to play some Proleague matches in summer 2009 (I arrived December 2008, left in February 2009). But because of the circumstances, there was a very low chance of me staying. So you could say I was close in the sense that I only had to stay and grind out four more months. There are certainly times when I wish I had said fuck it all and stayed and did it, especially with how things have actually turned out four years later. Oh well! This doesn't take anything away from your point though. Just a point of pride for me.
Obviously it's not in my place to say anything but I think you would have done great in Proleague/the team if the Korean teams were more tolerant lols...talent just had to get shat on by Koreans being Koreans
what the hell are you talking about?
Apparently he thinks koreans are obligated to show mercy on foreigners for the sake of fans. You know what we call that?
I think he's trying to say the Koreans didn't give Nony a chance because he was a foreigner, which obviously doesn't make sense given that Nony said in his post that he would've gotten a chance to play in the proleague had he stayed. Also, the fact that other foreigners did get the chance to play in the proleague crushes that idiotic accusation even more.
On December 08 2012 12:51 Liquid`NonY wrote: It was pretty damn likely that I would have gotten my opportunity to play some Proleague matches in summer 2009 (I arrived December 2008, left in February 2009). But because of the circumstances, there was a very low chance of me staying. So you could say I was close in the sense that I only had to stay and grind out four more months. There are certainly times when I wish I had said fuck it all and stayed and did it, especially with how things have actually turned out four years later. Oh well! This doesn't take anything away from your point though. Just a point of pride for me.
Obviously it's not in my place to say anything but I think you would have done great in Proleague/the team if the Korean teams were more tolerant lols...talent just had to get shat on by Koreans being Koreans
Thanks for the support but I believe it was more my fault than theirs that it didn't work out. If they were perfect employers then it would have worked out. If I was a perfect employee then it would have worked out. Neither of us were perfect. I take more of the blame and am grateful they gave me the opportunity. I really have nothing to gain from acting like this at this point anyway. It's how I really feel when I look back on it.
On December 08 2012 12:51 Liquid`NonY wrote: It was pretty damn likely that I would have gotten my opportunity to play some Proleague matches in summer 2009 (I arrived December 2008, left in February 2009). But because of the circumstances, there was a very low chance of me staying. So you could say I was close in the sense that I only had to stay and grind out four more months. There are certainly times when I wish I had said fuck it all and stayed and did it, especially with how things have actually turned out four years later. Oh well! This doesn't take anything away from your point though. Just a point of pride for me.
Obviously it's not in my place to say anything but I think you would have done great in Proleague/the team if the Korean teams were more tolerant lols...talent just had to get shat on by Koreans being Koreans
what the hell are you talking about?
Apparently he thinks koreans are obligated to show mercy on foreigners for the sake of fans. You know what we call that?
WE CALL IT MATCH FIXING
... no, he was saying that korean teams are biased to only play koreans. There was nothing in his statement about going easy on foreigners.
Doesn't matter, soon Koreans will dominate again and no foreigner will be able to compete. EG-TL will become a "Korean" team by picking up only Koreans since only they could win.
On December 10 2012 13:22 Black[CAT] wrote: Doesn't matter, soon Koreans will dominate again and no foreigner will be able to compete. EG-TL will become a "Korean" team by picking up only Koreans since only they could win.
White-Ra needs to learn a new way to bulldog people. lol
In my opinion nony's protoss was the closest we ever got to modern pro level within our foreign pool. Honorable mention for idra tho, he stuck to the cj thing for a shitwhile, nobody else did that.
About the korean teams beeing not tolerant, I'm not so sure about this, but I think Estro was just a bad place overall.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gYkIi.jpg)
