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Disclaimer: This post isn't about balance nor is it about criticizing the strategical decisions or ideas of others. This blog is purely about furthering our understanding of the game by understanding the reasoning of the other races' (and our own race's) decision making. Use your common sense when responding!
I sometimes, when watching SC2 games, have thoughts about strategical things that I don't see often and I wonder whether they have not been explored or whether there is a reason why they don't work. So, I thought it would be fun to make a blog where myself and others can post these ideas and/or our reaction to them to further each other's understanding of the game.
As replies come in, I will add the information to the post.
Mass OCs in TvZ
We see some of this in other matchups and in TvZ Mech play, but I'm specifically talking about the mindset of being defensive and making another OC at every safe point to do so, using harassment options (drops, banshees, hellions, etc.) to keep Zerg from moving out and exploiting the later army investment. It comes to mind specifically, since Terran has been having a lot of difficulty obtaining their late game army (BC/Viking/Raven/Ghost).
The idea to get a lot of OCs isn't a new idea and has been happening in other matchups, as well as Mech TvZ, for a really long time. I specifically remember several TvTs on Metalopolis in the early days where players were rocking as many as 12 OCs. The advantage of this is that once the late game arrives, mineral SCVs can be replaced entirely with MULEs and the supply can be replaced with units, supplementing Terran's late game weaknesses.
The two questions I have about this way of approaching the matchup are: Are there safe places where you can sacrifice other investments to squeeze in another OC earlier and do more OCs give enough of a boost to the Terran economy to allow for that late game army to come out early enough relative to the Zerg player's late game army?
Forge-less FE in PvZ
To be very clear, I'm talking about getting a comparable natural expansion timing to an FFE, but skipping the Forge and Cannon unless you see a scouting read that means you absolutely need it. In monk's PvZ Guide (which is a really good read!), he mentions the Gateway-Nexus openings briefly that Naniwa used against DRG in their match in Code S, but this appears to have disappeared from the meta game as quickly as it appeared.
With the exception of early Gateway all-ins and being aggressive with the first few Gateway units, Zerg is under no real danger in producing only Drones from every larvae until ~8 minutes against an FFE. This means that Zerg gets a 60+ Drone economy for free at a time period where Protoss has 45-50 Probes. The reason for this is that getting an early Forge and Cannon cost 300 minerals at a time when minerals scarcest. Getting gas and starting your tech tree are both delayed as a result, which means that aggressive tech is delayed substantially. The advantage to not getting the Forge/Cannon immediately and blindly are that you have the ability to force unit production before the Zerg player has a comfortable amount of Drones and likely a force later third base from Zerg, who wouldn't be able to defend against the earlier forms of aggression that are now possible. This should put the Protoss player in a stronger economic situation comparative to the Zerg through forced larvae usage.
Why are the Forge and Cannon necessary? Are there unscoutable options that Zerg has that are not able to be defended with Gateway units? Are earlier upgrades and safety worth allowing Zerg to drone so hard?
I'll add more things as I think of them. Feel free to add your own topics or to comment on the ones that I've posted.
 
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For Orbitals, they're expensive and have little gain for a relatively long time. It takes around two and a half minutes to build an Orbital Command, and another three minutes just for it to pay itself off. You have to stay alive and in a reasonable condition until then, and by that time Minerals and Supply are not as much of a deal as gas, tech, and the timing you have to hit in order to keep the Zerg from hitting a critical mass of Broodlord/Infestor- that is enough to completely demolish any ground forces you have by making a wall of Broodlings and Fungals before you can get enough Vikings, Thors, and Ghosts/Tanks to beat the Zerg's deathball.
As for the harassment, it's not especially effective past the early-game when the Zerg doesn't know you have cloaked Banshees, Hellions, or whatever. At least, not in my experience. They just mine faster than you kill the Drones. Also, Minerals and Larvae don't matter so much at a certain point for Zerg because for the most part they're taking up their supply using Infestors and either Ultralisks or Broodlords. Zerglings are extremely nice, but you build up a huge excess of Larvae while building up your Broodlord/Infestor force.
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Aren't the forge and cannon necessary (generally) because of the early aggression that Zerg can apply to Protoss, plus the fact that you always have the option of throwing down a cannon at the Zerg's expansions? The cannon's range is what you need to defend your wall-off or buildings in general, as zerglings and roaches are so fast and there's the potential for so many of them in the early game. Also (on a secondary note), the earlier forge means you can hit an earlier timing attack with +1 or +2 weapons, and +1 is especially imperative in zealot vs. zergling fights (zerglings die in 2 hits instead of 3).
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I haven't played for quite some time, but in regards to the forge-less FFE the consensus is that generally you need the cannons to stop some form of roach all in which was quite common way back but also to effectively shut down any early zerg aggression and zealots are slow. There is also the concern of simply not having enough units to deal with an early game aggressive zerg without the cannons.
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On December 04 2012 01:49 Fencar wrote:
For Orbitals, they're expensive and have little gain for a relatively long time. It takes around two and a half minutes to build an Orbital Command, and another three minutes just for it to pay itself off. You have to stay alive and in a reasonable condition until then, and by that time Minerals and Supply are not as much of a deal as gas, tech, and the timing you have to hit in order to keep the Zerg from hitting a critical mass of Broodlord/Infestor- that is enough to completely demolish any ground forces you have by making a wall of Broodlings and Fungals before you can get enough Vikings, Thors, and Ghosts/Tanks to beat the Zerg's deathball.
As for the harassment, it's not especially effective past the early-game when the Zerg doesn't know you have cloaked Banshees, Hellions, or whatever. At least, not in my experience. They just mine faster than you kill the Drones. Also, Minerals and Larvae don't matter so much at a certain point for Zerg because for the most part they're taking up their supply using Infestors and either Ultralisks or Broodlords. Zerglings are extremely nice, but you build up a huge excess of Larvae while building up your Broodlord/Infestor force.
The premise of what I'm talking about is a shift in playstyle away from stopping BL/Infestor from happening toward being in a great position when it does happen. Obviously, though, you still need to build your own tech timings around being able to deal with the Zerg army when it shows up or to delay the Zerg army from showing up until you can deal with it.
Also, the point of harassment, in this case, isn't to delay the Zerg's tech/economy (obviously those things are good), but to keep Zerg busy dealing with your harassment and allow your investments to pay off in the late game. There is a cut-off point for harassment working, once the economy is strong enough to add heavy static defense to bases, but that is a delay in itself.
I'm not saying any of this is a viable way to play, it's just a thought that I've had in the past when watching the match-up.
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On December 04 2012 02:15 unkkz wrote:
I haven't played for quite some time, but in regards to the forge-less FFE the consensus is that generally you need the cannons to stop some form of roach all in which was quite common way back but also to effectively shut down any early zerg aggression and zealots are slow. There is also the concern of simply not having enough units to deal with an early game aggressive zerg without the cannons.
Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, these early timings and all-ins are scoutable and happen at a late enough timing that you can simply make the Forge/Cannon reactively. If that's the case, then you should be even more ahead by having the earlier tech to be able to punish the Zerg player for sacrificing economy after a successful hold and simply end the game.
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On December 04 2012 02:18 TrippSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 02:15 unkkz wrote:
I haven't played for quite some time, but in regards to the forge-less FFE the consensus is that generally you need the cannons to stop some form of roach all in which was quite common way back but also to effectively shut down any early zerg aggression and zealots are slow. There is also the concern of simply not having enough units to deal with an early game aggressive zerg without the cannons. Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, these early timings and all-ins are scoutable and happen at a late enough timing that you can simply make the Forge/Cannon reactively. If that's the case, then you should be even more ahead by having the earlier tech to be able to punish the Zerg player for sacrificing economy after a successful hold and simply end the game.
In terms of roaches where the inherent issue lies that zealots suck vs them so u need cannons, the thing is that i do not think that you can scout it effectively and reliably. And even if you scout the warren going down relocating the needed resources for a forge and 3+ cannons can be tricky not to mention i am in doubt if u have time for it. I am talking completely out of my memory here though so don't take my words for fact.
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I'm positive there was a GSL PvZ which started nexus-gate-gas. May have been on Atlantis Spaceship. Seed, maybe Vines... this definitely won't eat me up inside xD
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Terrans don't build mass OC because that's like a long term investment into minerals later. Why do you need minerals later though? 1 million marines won't kill infestor bl.
On the other hand. Gateway first builds after actually very good. Even if you gateway first, you still have the option of building a forge later to defend against all ins. With good scouting, you can build the minimum amount of defense and get ahead that way. Plus gateway first openings give you a insanely fast warpgate to do wg timing attacks. I know a guy that does a wg timing attack with +1 at 6:50 and he'll have more workers than the zerg player.
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On December 04 2012 03:14 T.O.P. wrote:
Terrans don't build mass OC because that's like a long term investment into minerals later. Why do you need minerals later though? 1 million marines won't kill infestor bl.
I understand what you are saying, but wouldn't it be possible to take earlier gas because of the mineral income that will come from having more OCs or would the return be too late into the game? Also, if minerals aren't your bottleneck in getting to the army that you need, wouldn't the extra army supply from sacrificing SCVs be valuable enough to get a larger OC count (possibly as a next step after reaching the tech of choice)?
Thanks everyone for your replies and input. I'll be editing it into the OP later tonight.
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On December 04 2012 03:14 T.O.P. wrote:
Terrans don't build mass OC because that's like a long term investment into minerals later. Why do you need minerals later though? 1 million marines won't kill infestor bl.
On the other hand. Gateway first builds after actually very good. Even if you gateway first, you still have the option of building a forge later to defend against all ins. With good scouting, you can build the minimum amount of defense and get ahead that way. Plus gateway first openings give you a insanely fast warpgate to do wg timing attacks. I know a guy that does a wg timing attack with +1 at 6:50 and he'll have more workers than the zerg player.
Really!?
I mean, FFE has been the gold standard of PvZ for... years I think. I remember back when the Stephano Style Roach Max was problematic for Protoss, a blue poster made a thread to discuss solutions for it. There was a rumor going about that 1 Gate FE was the answer, and the OP basically said that if you actually think 1 Gate FE is the answer, you're either an idiot or a genius, and unless you've got a crap ton of replays of your 1 Gate FE beating the tar out of top level zergs, you're the former. It basically made it sound like the FFE was the next best thing to set in stone.
So what the heck changed?
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On December 04 2012 05:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Really!?
I mean, FFE has been the gold standard of PvZ for... years I think. I remember back when the Stephano Style Roach Max was problematic for Protoss, a blue poster made a thread to discuss solutions for it. There was a rumor going about that 1 Gate FE was the answer, and the OP basically said that if you actually think 1 Gate FE is the answer, you're either an idiot or a genius, and unless you've got a crap ton of replays of your 1 Gate FE beating the tar out of top level zergs, you're the former. It basically made it sound like the FFE was the next best thing to set in stone.
So what the heck changed?
If you feel so strongly that FFE is better regardless, then explain your reasoning instead of attacking someone else's viewpoint with nothing to say about it other than "it's the standard." The whole point of this blog post is for determining the reason why non-standard plays aren't standard.
Keep it civil, chill out, and actually form your argument like an intelligent human being.
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On December 04 2012 05:54 TrippSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Really!?
I mean, FFE has been the gold standard of PvZ for... years I think. I remember back when the Stephano Style Roach Max was problematic for Protoss, a blue poster made a thread to discuss solutions for it. There was a rumor going about that 1 Gate FE was the answer, and the OP basically said that if you actually think 1 Gate FE is the answer, you're either an idiot or a genius, and unless you've got a crap ton of replays of your 1 Gate FE beating the tar out of top level zergs, you're the former. It basically made it sound like the FFE was the next best thing to set in stone.
So what the heck changed? If you feel so strongly that FFE is better regardless, then explain your reasoning instead of attacking someone else's viewpoint with nothing to say about it other than "it's the standard." The whole point of this blog post is for determining the reason why non-standard plays aren't standard. Keep it civil, chill out, and actually form your argument like an intelligent human being.
I'm not saying he's wrong. He's in GM, for Christ's sake!
I'm saying that I'm in disbelief about that. Shock, really. It's like everyone suddenly switching from infestors to hydras because, as it turns out, they were all doing it wrong way back when SC2 was new.
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On December 04 2012 06:07 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:54 TrippSC2 wrote:On December 04 2012 05:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Really!?
I mean, FFE has been the gold standard of PvZ for... years I think. I remember back when the Stephano Style Roach Max was problematic for Protoss, a blue poster made a thread to discuss solutions for it. There was a rumor going about that 1 Gate FE was the answer, and the OP basically said that if you actually think 1 Gate FE is the answer, you're either an idiot or a genius, and unless you've got a crap ton of replays of your 1 Gate FE beating the tar out of top level zergs, you're the former. It basically made it sound like the FFE was the next best thing to set in stone.
So what the heck changed? If you feel so strongly that FFE is better regardless, then explain your reasoning instead of attacking someone else's viewpoint with nothing to say about it other than "it's the standard." The whole point of this blog post is for determining the reason why non-standard plays aren't standard. Keep it civil, chill out, and actually form your argument like an intelligent human being. I'm not saying he's wrong. He's in GM, for Christ's sake! I'm saying that I'm in disbelief about that. Shock, really. It's like everyone suddenly switching from infestors to hydras because, as it turns out, they were all doing it wrong way back when SC2 was new.
Understood. There are a lot of people who don't know how to discuss things without getting really heated about it. Just wanted to make sure that wasn't the case, because I don't want people to feel like they can't put their non-standard ideas out there in this thread. 
Just thinking about it logically, there are only two things that FFE grant you that doing the same thing with a Gateway instead of the Forge doesn't. The safety of being able to build cannons to defend an all-in and earlier upgrades. So, my way of thinking about it is: 1) Are early upgrades worth allowing Zerg to get a comfortable Drone count or are later upgrades with a more similar economy to Zerg a better situation? 2) Can most Zerg all-ins be scouted reliably? 3) Can you find alternative methods of holding Zerg all-ins (reactive forge + cannon, chrono'd gates, earlier sentries, etc.)?
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My pet peeves:
Why don't Zergs use Nydus Worm more? It's so good for late-game harassment. In Code S games I see T/P players not even putting buildings on the edge of their base, why don't Zs just get a nydus when they see an opening?
Why do Protoss players completely ignore recall in PvZ? I've honestly only seen Kiwikaki use it, and he beat Stephano in that game.
Why do Terrans completely rule out Ghosts vs Zerg? Snipe obviously isn't that strong now, but just 4 or so ghosts for EMP seems like a solid investment when doing these 3 base pushes to hit Zerg before Hive.
I mean all 3 of these have been done to great success in pro games, I just don't understand why they never catch on
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EPT
