• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:57
CEST 05:57
KST 12:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview9TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection5Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June2Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th151Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? What kind of tool would you be interested in? Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) WardiTV Mondays Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum
Brood War
General
FlaSh's ASL S21 Finals Review 25 Years Since Brood War Patch 1.08 [BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June BW animated web series: seeking contributors FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event
Tourneys
[BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Megathread Summer Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread The Perfect Game Path of Exile
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread YouTube Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5304 users

SC2: Problems at core

Blogs > LastWish
Post a Reply
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2015 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 15:47:47
November 21 2012 15:45 GMT
#1
We are now past 12 unit selections, past single building selection limit, broken AI's of units...

The main reason these where in StarCraft I in late 90' is not that they make the game more interesting(although sometimes they do).
They were developed because of back-compatibility(W2) and at that time the the proper algorithms for path finding, army moving were not invented yet.
Also the computers where way slower back then, which naturally called for compromises.

We now cannot look back on developing A-class games with flaws like these instead we need to focus on interesting game mechanics, diverse units and good maps/map features.

SC2 had the great burden of being a sequel to greatest real-time strategic game ever: Broodwar.
The task was therefore very difficult - the game needed to have some kind of compatibility, similiarity with the original but
at the same time needed to be unique, different, however still remain great.
As it mostly turns out by sequels of great things(even movies) the sequel didn't surpass the original.

Now with HoS on the way there is a chance to do things differently once again.

Most of the complains about WoL are about the abilities and units, specifically fungal growth, vortex and forcefields.
And rightfully so. These abilities are one-sided, while one player casts them, there is almost nothing for the other player can do about it.
He can sit back have a beer and watch the movie unfold.

Since there have already been countless discussions about these issues I would like to point out other problems, partcularly problems concerning game mechanics.

If we compare SC2 with SC1, one of the core changes was the resource harvesting.
While in BW the resources have been mined at rate 8 per worker in SC2 it is 5 per worker.
Also the saturation is different - you would see that using more than 2 workers per patch wouldn't provide that much benefit in Broodwar.
In SC2 the saturation is set 3 workers per patch and the mining output per worker does not decrease too much when having 1,2 or 3 workers on patch.
As for gas harvesting, the workers required to harvest gas are doubled.

As a result we now have a lot more workers who actually give less resources.
This leads to:
1. Workers are not precious enough. Single worker loses don't provide enough advantage, while dealing splash damage on the mineral line still remains good.
2. It's actually harder to get back when you lose a lot of workers, since you need to rebuild a lot more workers.
3. Expanding isn't as beneficial - this leads to 3 base plays where 4th becomes disadvantageous because it's hard to defend.
4. The army sizes are much smaller.

Natural solutions for this issue:
a) We have experience from BW with 4 starting workers harvesting 8 per patch. In WoL we tested 6 workers with 5 per patch.
Now if in Broodwar workers were too precious and in WoL they are not precious enough I say the truth lies inbetween.
What we need is 5 workers who mine 6 minerals per patch, while decreasing the cap on minerals from 3 workers to 2,5.
Also 2 gases per expansion does not create any interesting dynamic and should be changed back to 1.
As a result the amount minerals stays the same, but less supply/minerals is needed on workers - which provides bigger armies and games with more expansions.
I understand that this would lead to lot of changes, but preferably this could also change(nerf) MULEs and larva injects, so that their role is more of a boost than a necessity.

b) Increase the supply limit.

I hear you crying: "What about the deathballs, sir?"
Deathballs have always been here and always will be.
Deathballs in Broodwar exist: 200/200 terran mech army, Ultra/ling/lurker/defiler zerg deathball, corsair/carrier protoss deathball...
They however have been successfully solved by mobility, splash damage and tech cost(mostly gas).

Another issue concerning resources is no depleted gas.
Now this may seem irrelevant, it however creates an interesting late-game scenarios where the army compositions change greatly(more caster heavy).
Some kind of mechanic like this should be reintroduced to HoS for the sake of diversity.

Another fundamental problem is the defenders disadvantage.
This problem is large scaled, but comparing to Broodwar we may find out few aspects of the game which may be the cause.
1. Changed mechanics around highgrounds - no range unit missing.
Personally I find this change nor good nor bad, however in SC2 high grounds no longer provide and defenders advantage when air units are around(pretty early).
2. Too much mobility - warpins, medivacs, creep, nydus... all of these provide too much mobility which make it hard to defend multiple expansions at the same time or allow the attacker to instantly reinforce his attack.
3. Anti-ground static defence is very weak.
Certainly everyone remembers how difficult it was to conquer terran expands filled with mines, siege tanks and sometimes even bunkers.
Same would apply for protoss trying to destroy zerg expand protected with sunkens + lurkers.
Because in WoL at Tier1 we have easily accessible tank-range units like Roaches and Marauders, static defences don't deal enough damage.
Even in larger numbers the towers aren't cost effective.

We can hardly nerf the mobility, so probably static defences need to be improved in damage - for example photon cannons -25hp/shields +(5-10)dmg, maybe +10a.
Problem however lies in zerg defence structures, which can move and so this would need to be thought out better.

Next issue is with the melee units.
Melee units are no longer the tanky units(compared to range units) and so in order to compensate melee units where given very quick mobility = charge, creep
This means that walking melee units are almost non-existant in SC2 because the traveling speed is almost instant.
As a direct result of this ranged units need to be mobile as well and that's why a lot of kiting occurs.
This is also why ultras are not good anymore and burrow-strike wants to be introduced.

Last problem I would like to point out is the detection.
Detection is now considered a right rather than an privilidge.
Every race has an easy access to a detection unit. Also it's easier and more forgiving to build static defences early, even if not needed.
This means that early game it's difficult to utilize cloak and once in mid-game cloak does not matter anymore.
It does matter a little whether dark templars have or not have permanent cloak when past mid-game harasing expansions.
Even if you snipe a detector it's easily remade.
Strategies like stalker+dark templar or phoenix+dark templar just don't work.


*
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
November 21 2012 17:46 GMT
#2
I can't speak to much of this as I didn't play a lot of BW competitively but Zerg had passive detection from the get go, it literally was a privilege. Protoss especially are shy on detection relative to Z just popping an overseer or Terran scanning, so I am not quite sure what to make of that last bit. I'll let more qualified individuals comment on the other points.
Facultyadjutant
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Sweden1876 Posts
November 21 2012 18:01 GMT
#3
The problem with the last part is that the second base - sure needs a ramp but.. - is way too small in size. Cloaked units don't have a lot of places to hide. This is of course greatest on Dt's.
#1 FAN OF TERRY THE INTERN - NONY AND IDRA NUMBER #1, EVERY DAY. AXIOM MANOR - Axiom: Ryung, Alicia, Heart and Crank under the Don TotalBiscuit and the Donnesa Genna Bain- Join the family http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396090#2
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
November 21 2012 21:23 GMT
#4
The text on TL wraps to the next line on it's own without you having to press enter.
Shikada
Profile Joined May 2012
Serbia976 Posts
November 22 2012 00:04 GMT
#5
On November 22 2012 00:45 LastWish wrote:
The main reason these where in StarCraft I in late 90' is not that they make the game more interesting(although sometimes they do).
They were developed because of back-compatibility(W2) and at that time the the proper algorithms for path finding, army moving were not invented yet.
Also the computers where way slower back then, which naturally called for compromises.


This is simply not true. Even in WC1 the six unit selection limit was artificial. They could have implemented it, but though the game was more strategic with the limitation.

You have one of the main Blizzard devs at the time bloging about the making of WC1 and SC. It's an eye opening read, and I warmly recommend it.

http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
Amantes de StarCraft 2 #45
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 216
ProTech103
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 4222
Rain 2928
ZergMaN 66
Dewaltoss 60
Bale 22
Icarus 7
Dota 2
XaKoH 382
NeuroSwarm122
League of Legends
JimRising 778
Counter-Strike
taco 359
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King88
Other Games
summit1g13963
C9.Mang0640
PiGStarcraft300
WinterStarcraft234
CosmosSc2 16
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1170
BasetradeTV251
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 20
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1078
• Rush929
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6h 3m
PiGosaur Cup
20h 3m
Replay Cast
1d 5h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 7h
Maestros of the Game
1d 11h
Classic vs Lambo
Clem vs Maru
Replay Cast
1d 20h
The PondCast
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Serral vs Rogue
herO vs SHIN
Replay Cast
2 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
OSC
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 22
2026 GSL S2
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
Acropolis #4 - GSB
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.