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SC2: Problems at core

Blogs > LastWish
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LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2015 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 15:47:47
November 21 2012 15:45 GMT
#1
We are now past 12 unit selections, past single building selection limit, broken AI's of units...

The main reason these where in StarCraft I in late 90' is not that they make the game more interesting(although sometimes they do).
They were developed because of back-compatibility(W2) and at that time the the proper algorithms for path finding, army moving were not invented yet.
Also the computers where way slower back then, which naturally called for compromises.

We now cannot look back on developing A-class games with flaws like these instead we need to focus on interesting game mechanics, diverse units and good maps/map features.

SC2 had the great burden of being a sequel to greatest real-time strategic game ever: Broodwar.
The task was therefore very difficult - the game needed to have some kind of compatibility, similiarity with the original but
at the same time needed to be unique, different, however still remain great.
As it mostly turns out by sequels of great things(even movies) the sequel didn't surpass the original.

Now with HoS on the way there is a chance to do things differently once again.

Most of the complains about WoL are about the abilities and units, specifically fungal growth, vortex and forcefields.
And rightfully so. These abilities are one-sided, while one player casts them, there is almost nothing for the other player can do about it.
He can sit back have a beer and watch the movie unfold.

Since there have already been countless discussions about these issues I would like to point out other problems, partcularly problems concerning game mechanics.

If we compare SC2 with SC1, one of the core changes was the resource harvesting.
While in BW the resources have been mined at rate 8 per worker in SC2 it is 5 per worker.
Also the saturation is different - you would see that using more than 2 workers per patch wouldn't provide that much benefit in Broodwar.
In SC2 the saturation is set 3 workers per patch and the mining output per worker does not decrease too much when having 1,2 or 3 workers on patch.
As for gas harvesting, the workers required to harvest gas are doubled.

As a result we now have a lot more workers who actually give less resources.
This leads to:
1. Workers are not precious enough. Single worker loses don't provide enough advantage, while dealing splash damage on the mineral line still remains good.
2. It's actually harder to get back when you lose a lot of workers, since you need to rebuild a lot more workers.
3. Expanding isn't as beneficial - this leads to 3 base plays where 4th becomes disadvantageous because it's hard to defend.
4. The army sizes are much smaller.

Natural solutions for this issue:
a) We have experience from BW with 4 starting workers harvesting 8 per patch. In WoL we tested 6 workers with 5 per patch.
Now if in Broodwar workers were too precious and in WoL they are not precious enough I say the truth lies inbetween.
What we need is 5 workers who mine 6 minerals per patch, while decreasing the cap on minerals from 3 workers to 2,5.
Also 2 gases per expansion does not create any interesting dynamic and should be changed back to 1.
As a result the amount minerals stays the same, but less supply/minerals is needed on workers - which provides bigger armies and games with more expansions.
I understand that this would lead to lot of changes, but preferably this could also change(nerf) MULEs and larva injects, so that their role is more of a boost than a necessity.

b) Increase the supply limit.

I hear you crying: "What about the deathballs, sir?"
Deathballs have always been here and always will be.
Deathballs in Broodwar exist: 200/200 terran mech army, Ultra/ling/lurker/defiler zerg deathball, corsair/carrier protoss deathball...
They however have been successfully solved by mobility, splash damage and tech cost(mostly gas).

Another issue concerning resources is no depleted gas.
Now this may seem irrelevant, it however creates an interesting late-game scenarios where the army compositions change greatly(more caster heavy).
Some kind of mechanic like this should be reintroduced to HoS for the sake of diversity.

Another fundamental problem is the defenders disadvantage.
This problem is large scaled, but comparing to Broodwar we may find out few aspects of the game which may be the cause.
1. Changed mechanics around highgrounds - no range unit missing.
Personally I find this change nor good nor bad, however in SC2 high grounds no longer provide and defenders advantage when air units are around(pretty early).
2. Too much mobility - warpins, medivacs, creep, nydus... all of these provide too much mobility which make it hard to defend multiple expansions at the same time or allow the attacker to instantly reinforce his attack.
3. Anti-ground static defence is very weak.
Certainly everyone remembers how difficult it was to conquer terran expands filled with mines, siege tanks and sometimes even bunkers.
Same would apply for protoss trying to destroy zerg expand protected with sunkens + lurkers.
Because in WoL at Tier1 we have easily accessible tank-range units like Roaches and Marauders, static defences don't deal enough damage.
Even in larger numbers the towers aren't cost effective.

We can hardly nerf the mobility, so probably static defences need to be improved in damage - for example photon cannons -25hp/shields +(5-10)dmg, maybe +10a.
Problem however lies in zerg defence structures, which can move and so this would need to be thought out better.

Next issue is with the melee units.
Melee units are no longer the tanky units(compared to range units) and so in order to compensate melee units where given very quick mobility = charge, creep
This means that walking melee units are almost non-existant in SC2 because the traveling speed is almost instant.
As a direct result of this ranged units need to be mobile as well and that's why a lot of kiting occurs.
This is also why ultras are not good anymore and burrow-strike wants to be introduced.

Last problem I would like to point out is the detection.
Detection is now considered a right rather than an privilidge.
Every race has an easy access to a detection unit. Also it's easier and more forgiving to build static defences early, even if not needed.
This means that early game it's difficult to utilize cloak and once in mid-game cloak does not matter anymore.
It does matter a little whether dark templars have or not have permanent cloak when past mid-game harasing expansions.
Even if you snipe a detector it's easily remade.
Strategies like stalker+dark templar or phoenix+dark templar just don't work.


*
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
November 21 2012 17:46 GMT
#2
I can't speak to much of this as I didn't play a lot of BW competitively but Zerg had passive detection from the get go, it literally was a privilege. Protoss especially are shy on detection relative to Z just popping an overseer or Terran scanning, so I am not quite sure what to make of that last bit. I'll let more qualified individuals comment on the other points.
Facultyadjutant
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Sweden1876 Posts
November 21 2012 18:01 GMT
#3
The problem with the last part is that the second base - sure needs a ramp but.. - is way too small in size. Cloaked units don't have a lot of places to hide. This is of course greatest on Dt's.
#1 FAN OF TERRY THE INTERN - NONY AND IDRA NUMBER #1, EVERY DAY. AXIOM MANOR - Axiom: Ryung, Alicia, Heart and Crank under the Don TotalBiscuit and the Donnesa Genna Bain- Join the family http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396090#2
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
November 21 2012 21:23 GMT
#4
The text on TL wraps to the next line on it's own without you having to press enter.
Shikada
Profile Joined May 2012
Serbia976 Posts
November 22 2012 00:04 GMT
#5
On November 22 2012 00:45 LastWish wrote:
The main reason these where in StarCraft I in late 90' is not that they make the game more interesting(although sometimes they do).
They were developed because of back-compatibility(W2) and at that time the the proper algorithms for path finding, army moving were not invented yet.
Also the computers where way slower back then, which naturally called for compromises.


This is simply not true. Even in WC1 the six unit selection limit was artificial. They could have implemented it, but though the game was more strategic with the limitation.

You have one of the main Blizzard devs at the time bloging about the making of WC1 and SC. It's an eye opening read, and I warmly recommend it.

http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/
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